Jaredite Time-olmec Time

[Olavarria]

Jaredite time

When did the Jaredites ruling lineage fall?

"If Ether 11:20â??21 indeed precedes the arrival of the Israelite group Coriantumr could not have lived as late as, say, 400 B.C.......A reasonable conclusion is that the most likely date for the end of the Jaredite people falls not earlier, and not much later, than 580 B.C"(1).

When did Lib build his city?

Now, the trickier part, some Jaredite kings lived long lives. Several kings are described as being "exceedingly old" and having children in their old age, with at least one king living past 100 years(Ether 7:7 and 9:23,24)! So, how many years were in 14 generations? We don't know; we will have to approximate. In "Who Are the Children of Lehi?", Trent D. Stephens gives us an example from his own family history. His "paternal family line goes back only 13 generations before reaching a dead end, to Henry Stephens, born in England in 1497"; in his family history, 13 generations equals 500 years(2). Using this unrepresentative sample, we will esimate that the City of Lib was built at around 1080BC.

When did the Jaredites peak as a culture?

During the reign of Lib.

Ether 10:28

28) "And never could be a people more blessed than were they, and more prospered by the hand of the Lord. And they were in a land that was choice above all lands, for the Lord had spoken it."

When did Jaredite culture experience a major decline?

Ether 11:5-6

5) And it came to pass that the brother of Shiblom caused that all the prophets who prophesied of the destruction of the people should be put to death;

6) And there was great calamity in all the land, for they had testified that a great curse should come upon the land, and also upon the people, and that there should be a great destruction among them, such an one as never had been upon the face of the earth, and their bones should become as heaps of earth upon the face of the land except they should repent of their wickedness.

7) And they hearkened not unto the voice of the Lord, because of their wicked combinations; wherefore, there began to be wars and contentions in all the land, and also many famines and pestilences, insomuch that there was a great destruction, such an one as never had been known upon the face of the earth; and all this came to pass in the days of Shiblom.

Shiblom was part of the 7th to last king of his ruling lineage. So this took place at roughly, 880BC.

When did the Jaredite ruling lineage begin?

With 30 generation in the royal lineage, the Jaredite culture started at roughly 1740BC.

OLMEC TIME (3)

2500-1500BC: The first farming villages in Mesoamerica appear. Settlers raise maize, chili peppers, squash and cotton.

1500-1200BC: Olmec build San Lorenzo.

1100BC: After centuries of habitation, a second Olmec city is built at La Venta.

900BC: The Olmec site of San Lorenzo is destroyed.

c. 400 BC: The Olmec site of La Venta on the Gulf coast is destroyed. In the Valley of Mexico, Cuicuilco becomes an important city.

Hey, are you telling me that the Olmec are the Jaredites?

No, I am saying that the Jaredites were participants in Olmec culture. For example, in 1901, almost all Mormons were American; but almost no Americans were Mormon.

This entire post was done assuming Morianton was a son or grandson of Riplakish and the Jaredite fall was an earlier one

Sources

1) http://ispart.byu.edu/publications/transcripts/?id=28

2) Who Are the Children of Lehi? D. Jeffrey Meldrum, and Trent D. Stephens. Journal of Book of Mormon Studies: Volume - 12, Issue - 1Provo, Utah: Maxwell Institute, 2003

3)Charles Phillips, Complete Illustrated History of the Aztec and Maya; Lorenz Books (June 25, 2007), pg 24.

[Olavarria]

bzump

[charity's child]

one question - where does the "30 generations" come from?

[Olavarria]

Ether Chapther 1

1: Jared

2: Orihah

3: Kib

4: Shule

5:Omer

6:Emer

7:Coriantum

8:Com

9:Heth

10:Shez

11:Riplakish

12:Morianton*

13:Kim

14:Levi

15:Corom

16:Kish

17:Lib

18:Hearthom

19:Heth

20:Aaron

21:Amnigaddah

22:Coriantum

23:Com

24:Shiblon

25:Seth

26:Ahah

27:Ethem

28:Moron

29:Coriantor

30:Ether

* The only questian mark is the parentage of Morianton. Morianton was not "begat" by Riplakish, but was "a descendant of" Riplakish.

Ether 10:8-9

And when he had reigned for the space of forty and two years the people did rise up in rebellion against him; and there began to be war again in the land, insomuch that Riplakish was killed, and his descendants were driven out of the land.

9) And it came to pass after the space of many years, Morianton, (he being a descendant of Riplakish) gathered together an army of outcasts, and went forth and gave battle unto the people; and he gained power over many cities; and the war became exceedingly sore, and did last for the space of many years; and he did gain power over all the land, and did establish himself king over all the land.

It might be the case that Riplakish was a grandson, or great-grandson of Riplakish. This would make 31 or 32 generations. How many years is "many years"?

[charity's child]

Ether Chapther 1

1: Jared

2: Orihah

3: Kib

4: Shule

5:Omer

6:Emer

7:Coriantum

8:Com

9:Heth

10:Shez

11:Riplakish

12:Morianton*

13:Kim

14:Levi

15:Corom

16:Kish

17:Lib

18:Hearthom

19:Heth

20:Aaron

21:Amnigaddah

22:Coriantum

23:Com

24:Shiblon

25:Seth

26:Ahah

27:Ethem

28:Moron

29:Coriantor

30:Ether

* The only questian mark is the parentage of Morianton. Morianton was not "begat" by Riplakish, but was "a descendant of" Riplakish.

Ether 10:8-9

And when he had reigned for the space of forty and two years the people did rise up in rebellion against him; and there began to be war again in the land, insomuch that Riplakish was killed, and his descendants were driven out of the land.

9) And it came to pass after the space of many years, Morianton, (he being a descendant of Riplakish) gathered together an army of outcasts, and went forth and gave battle unto the people; and he gained power over many cities; and the war became exceedingly sore, and did last for the space of many years; and he did gain power over all the land, and did establish himself king over all the land.

It might be the case that Riplakish was a grandson, or great-grandson of Riplakish. This would make 31 or 32 generations. How many years is "many years"?

You missed a question mark. Aaron was a descendant of Heth. Descendant could have covered a hundred years or a thousand years. We have no idea how many generations are actually represented in that genealogy.

[Olavarria]

You missed a question mark. Aaron was a descendant of Heth. Descendant could have covered a hundred years or a thousand years. We have no idea how many generations are actually represented in that genealogy.

Good one.

Ether 10:29-31

29) And it came to pass that Lib did live many years, and begat sons and daughters; and he also begat Hearthom.

30) And it came to pass that Hearthom reigned in the stead of his father. And when Hearthom had reigned twenty and four years, behold, the kingdom was taken away from him. And he served many years in acaptivity, yea, even all the remainder of his days.

31) And he begat Heth, and Heth lived in captivity all his days. And Heth begat Aaron, and Aaron dwelt in captivity all his days; and he begat Amnigaddah, and Amnigaddah also dwelt in captivity all his days; and he begat Coriantum, and Coriantum dwelt in captivity all his days; and he begat Com.

Ether 1: 15-17

13) And Com was the son of Coriantum.

14) And Coriantum was the son of Amnigaddah.

15) And Amnigaddah was the son of Aaron.

16) And Aaron was a descendant of Heth, who was the son of Hearthom.

17) And Hearthom was the son of Lib.

Aaron was a descendant of Heth

It seems pretty clear that Aaron's descent was only one generation. "And Heth begat Aaron..."

[charity's child]

Good one.

Ether 10:29-31

29) And it came to pass that Lib did live many years, and begat sons and daughters; and he also begat Hearthom.

30) And it came to pass that Hearthom reigned in the stead of his father. And when Hearthom had reigned twenty and four years, behold, the kingdom was taken away from him. And he served many years in acaptivity, yea, even all the remainder of his days.

31) And he begat Heth, and Heth lived in captivity all his days. And Heth begat Aaron, and Aaron dwelt in captivity all his days; and he begat Amnigaddah, and Amnigaddah also dwelt in captivity all his days; and he begat Coriantum, and Coriantum dwelt in captivity all his days; and he begat Com.

Ether 1: 15-17

13) And Com was the son of Coriantum.

14) And Coriantum was the son of Amnigaddah.

15) And Amnigaddah was the son of Aaron.

16) And Aaron was a descendant of Heth, who was the son of Hearthom.

17) And Hearthom was the son of Lib.

Is there anything that says the same for Morianton? Or do we still have a question mark of how many generations may or may not separate them?

[Olavarria]

Is there anything that says the same for Morianton? Or do we still have a question mark of how many generations may or may not separate them?

Riplakish was killed AND his descendants were driven out of the land. Riplakish could be no older than a great grandfather. So Riplakish was killed at the same time that a generation of descendants(grandkids?, great grandkids?) was driven out, then after "many years" a descendant gathers up "outcasts" to takeover.

So to answer your questian, I dont know. Only that, a group of "descendants", is alive and then kicked out, at the same time Riplakish is alive and then killed. After many years, a "descendant" and "outcasts" take over. So it seems, though Im not sure, that Riplakish and Morianton are contemporaries. Why? Because Riplakish is killed AND his descendants are kicked out. Riplakish was a polygamist and reigned 42 years. So he had time to make more than 1 generation(Ether 10:5). Perhaps, he is killed, his sons are killed and the women and grandkids are kicked out,left to fend for themselves.

Perhaps, Morianton was a child when Riplakish was killed; he grew into a man and then got revenge. Given the use of "descendants"and "many years", it doesn't seem like 100's or 1,000 year intervals. Who knows, maybe Mori wasnt even a descendant of Rip, but merely claimed to be.

[rameumptom]

But I would view this from the Book of Omni, as well.

King Mosiah I discovers Zarahemla about 200 BC. Among the people there, he finds their leader, Zarahemla, still alive. Zarahemla shares his genealogy that traces back to Mulek and Zedekiah. Their society is described as having lost their Hebrew language due to no writings, lost their culture, lost their God, and lived through a period of extreme warfare. King Coriantumr of the Jaredites would live with them for 9 moons.

Given Zarahemla is still alive, I would suggest that the city was constructed no earlier than 250 BC. This means that the Mulekites dwelt among the Jaredites/Olmecs for 350 years - plenty of time to adopt the language and customs of the native peoples. When the Jaredite wars became intense, the Mulekites fled south of the narrow neck of land and built the city of Zarahemla.

They would have brought the Jaredite language with them, which would have included the names which suddenly appear in the Nephite record: Korihor/Corihor, Coriantum®, Morianton and the Anton suffix (Gadianton, Morianton, Corianton, etc). The Jaredite culture also appears, with people attempting to overthrow the government, secret combinations, etc.

So there we have another view of things, where the Jaredite nation may have survived down to 250 BC, surviving the Olmecs who killed themselves out a century before.

[Olavarria]

But I would view this from the Book of Omni, as well.

King Mosiah I discovers Zarahemla about 200 BC. Among the people there, he finds their leader, Zarahemla, still alive. Zarahemla shares his genealogy that traces back to Mulek and Zedekiah. Their society is described as having lost their Hebrew language due to no writings, lost their culture, lost their God, and lived through a period of extreme warfare. King Coriantumr of the Jaredites would live with them for 9 moons.

Given Zarahemla is still alive, I would suggest that the city was constructed no earlier than 250 BC. This means that the Mulekites dwelt among the Jaredites/Olmecs for 350 years - plenty of time to adopt the language and customs of the native peoples. When the Jaredite wars became intense, the Mulekites fled south of the narrow neck of land and built the city of Zarahemla.

They would have brought the Jaredite language with them, which would have included the names which suddenly appear in the Nephite record: Korihor/Corihor, Coriantum

[rameumptom]

We can agree on the timeframe for the Jaredite demise.

It amazes me how intricate such things become in the text. Either it is real, or Joseph Smith spent his early years developing an extremely complex story line that magically melds ANE and Mesoamerican societies together.

[charity's child]

But I would view this from the Book of Omni, as well.

King Mosiah I discovers Zarahemla about 200 BC. Among the people there, he finds their leader, Zarahemla, still alive. Zarahemla shares his genealogy that traces back to Mulek and Zedekiah. Their society is described as having lost their Hebrew language due to no writings, lost their culture, lost their God, and lived through a period of extreme warfare. King Coriantumr of the Jaredites would live with them for 9 moons.

Given Zarahemla is still alive, I would suggest that the city was constructed no earlier than 250 BC. This means that the Mulekites dwelt among the Jaredites/Olmecs for 350 years - plenty of time to adopt the language and customs of the native peoples. When the Jaredite wars became intense, the Mulekites fled south of the narrow neck of land and built the city of Zarahemla.

They would have brought the Jaredite language with them, which would have included the names which suddenly appear in the Nephite record: Korihor/Corihor, Coriantum

[Olavarria]

I question your assertion that the Mulekites lived with the Jaredites at any given time.

It is some time before the Nephites join the Mulekites that Coriantumr lived with the Mulekites. It could easily have been a hundred years earlier. The stone was brought to Mosiah, and Coriantumr's nine months with the Mulekites is given as an explanation for its existence. It is evident that he has died an uncertain period of time earlier, and that the Mulekites were unable to read the stone, and likely unable to understand Coriantumr, either. Ergo, coexistance of the Mulekites within the Jaredite culture is unlikely.

Edited to add: but it could easily explain the additional names, since the names they added would have been included in his record.

Maybe the names came from the translated stone itself, a king list?

[Olavarria]

Ive been thinking. Riplakish and Morianton could have been contemporaries(father and son, grandfather and grandson) or they could have been seperated by hundreds of years. The Jaredite could have met their end at any time between 600 and 200bc. This would make pinpointing the centuries for events with 100% certainty almost impossible. Perhaps, the later one stretches out their fall the more one would have to stretch out the distance between Riplakish and Morianton, in order for this model to work?

[charity's child]

Maybe the names came from the translated stone itself, a king list?

Seems plausible

[cdowis]

But I would view this from the Book of Omni, as well.

King Mosiah I discovers Zarahemla about 200 BC. Among the people there, he finds their leader, Zarahemla, still alive.

Which Zarahemla was "still alive", number 1 or number 10? For example, the Nephite kings took on the name of Nephi.

Now, regarding Coriantumr and the people of Zarahemla ==>> "And Coriantumr was discovered by the people of Zarahemla" may mean the city, or that Zarahemla was their leader who lived centuries before Mosiah discovered them.

Ouch!

The period of overlap between the Nephites and Jaredites is uncertain. This is based on a discussion with a BOM critic who showed that my assumptions were.... assumptions.

[Olavarria]

In the OP, I dated Lib to about 1100BC. Perhaps a better date would be 1100bc-700bc, given that the Jaredites could have existed up until 200ad.

John Clark says:

"Given what little is known of Jaredite settlement, we need to be careful not to imagine that we know more than we do. Second, the text states that the land southward was opened up during the days of King Lib. It is worth pointing out that the explosion of Olmec influence east of Tehuantepec (Sorenson's land southward) occurred after 900 BC, with only spotty influence before. I think the text can be read as indicating that the south lands opened up at this time, with colonization being part of the package."

http://farms.byu.edu/publications/review/?...um=2&id=545

[Olavarria]

I just realized something, Riplakish and Morianton pre-date Lib.

11:Riplakish

12:Morianton*

13:Kim

14:Levi

15:Corom

16:Kish

17:Lib

18:Hearthom

19:Heth

20:Aaron

21:Amnigaddah

22:Coriantum

23:Com

24:Shiblon

25:Seth

26:Ahah

27:Ethem

28:Moron

29:Coriantor

30:Ether

Ether 1:23.

So any discussion of Morianton's descent in light of chronology is irrelevant, if we are looking at the later Jaredite dates.

Jaredite Dates: Revised Edition

When did the Jaredite ruling lineage begin?

Dunno, Ole'Riplakish and Morianton throw a wrench in the whole time line. Where they contemporaries or seperated by 500 years?

When did the Jaredites peak as a culture?

Answer: 1100bc-700bc; Ether 10:28

When did Lib build his city on the narrow neck of land?

Answer: 1100bc-700bc; Ether 10:20

When did the Jaredites start to "go into the land southward"?

Answer: 1100bc-700bc; Ether 10:19

After Lib, when did Jaredite culture experience a major decline?

900bc-500bc;Ether 11:5-6

When did the Jaredites ruling lineage fall?

"If Ether 11:20â??21 indeed precedes the arrival of the Israelite group Coriantumr could not have lived no earlier than 580 B.C"(1). If Coriantmr died 1 day before Mosiah's group arrived then he could not have lived later than 200bc.

Answer: 600bc-200bc

[Olavarria]

OLMEC TIME (3)

2500-1500BC: The first farming villages in Mesoamerica appear. Settlers raise maize, chili peppers, squash and cotton.

1500-1200BC: Olmec build San Lorenzo.

1100BC: After centuries of habitation, a second Olmec city is built at La Venta.

900BC: The Olmec site of San Lorenzo is destroyed.

c. 400 BC: The Olmec site of La Venta on the Gulf coast is destroyed. In the Valley of Mexico, Cuicuilco becomes an important city.

Hey, are you telling me that the Olmec are the Jaredites?

No, I am saying that the Jaredites were participants in Olmec culture. For example, in 1901, almost all Mormons were American; but almost no Americans were Mormon.

Does anyone have a better source with a better Olmec chronology?