Adam-god Theory--let's Really Talk About This!

[stn9]

Where do you get this stuff, officially? (CFR) ...

[At the risk of attracting the unwanted attention and criticisms of the Bat-Man,...]

Doesn't anybody read and understand Joseph Smith's teachings any more? I mean, seriously, people:

16 June 1844: "But the holy ghost is yet a Spiritual body and waiting to take to himself a body. as the Savior did or as god did or the gods before them took bodies" (WJS, 382)

> Who, pray tell, will testify to the Testator while He is in the flesh? And why would He, after His own glorious resurrection, return to the role of Testator instead of becoming a Father to his own children and proceeding to do exactly what a Father does?

9 October 1843: "The spirits of just men are made ministering servants to those who are sealed unto life eternal. & it is through them that the sealing power comes down" (WJS, 254)

> "What? Are you an idiot, Brother Joseph? Don't you know that the sealing power already came down from Elijah in 1836? Have you lost your mind? Or are you making all of this up?" Well, then, how does the sealing power come down through the spirits of just men made perfect? Hrmm? Anyone?

9 October 1843: "The spirits of the just are exalted to a greater and more glorious workâ??hence they are blessed in departing hence. Enveloped in flaming fire, they are not far from us, and know and understand our thoughts, feelings and motions, and are often pained therewith" (WJS, 253-254)

> Hrmm. Who knows our thoughts, feelings, and motions and is often pained therewith? Boy, that sure sounds an awful lot like someone who is greived and withdraws from us when we in our thoughts, feelings, and actions undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness.

[consiglieri]

Let me add the following from Joseph Smith regarding the role of Adam as revelator (which most LDS think of as pertaining to the Holy Ghost):

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Four 1839â??42, p.167

Commencing with Adam, who was the first man, who is spoken of in Daniel as being the "Ancient of Days," or in other words, the first and oldest of all, the great, grand progenitor of whom it is said in another place he is Michael, because he was the first and father of all, not only by progeny, but the first to hold the spiritual blessings, to whom was made known the plan of ordinances for the salvation of his posterity unto the end, and to whom Christ was first revealed, and through whom Christ has been revealed from henceforth. Adam holds the keys of the dispensation of the fullness of times; i.e., the dispensation of all the times have been and will be revealed through him from the beginning to Christ, and from Christ to the end of the dispensations that are to be revealed.

If all revelation comes through the Holy Ghost, and if Adam is the one through whom Christ is revealed, either we have the same individual doing the revealing, or a bit of divine duplication, at the least.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[JangoPOW!]

Is Elohim an office too, in your perspective? How about Jesus Christ? Is He an office?

Where do you get this stuff, officially? (CFR)

In addition to stn9's quotes (thanks for those), here's another:

Joseph Smith, 27 August 1843, Temple Grove. From: Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245, Franklin D. Richards "Scriptural Items":

Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.

So, my bat-friend, given your comments, and that you claim to accept Joseph Smith as a prophet, you must believe that the Holy Ghost, being a spirit personage, at some point will be born of woman and live on Earth as Christ did. You don't think there will be NO Holy Ghost to fill that role during that time do you? Of course the Holy Ghost is an office. How else could it possibly work? That's one reason why he's never named, unlike the other members of the Godhead. The Holy Ghost is simply a spirit who is delegated power by the Father to testify of the Father and the Son. We most suppose that any spirit can be delegated this power and fill this function, as the Father wills it. In fact, one way of looking at Joseph's comment above, given his use of the word "probation" which is virtually always used in prophetic discourse to mean mortal life, is that the Holy Ghost (the one he was speaking of) was currently on the Earth in his mortal probation during Joseph's time, while another being filled that role. Has to happen sometime, right?

[Bat-Man]

I gave you a reference from the Book of Moses, where the Holy Ghost identified himself as the Only Begotten of the Father.

From this, I take it that the Holy Ghost in Adam's day was the premortal Jesus Christ.

That would be the most straightforward reading of the passage, though I understand that some Mormons have tried to circumvent the plain meaning by inventing doctrines such as "divine investiture of authority."

Are you now telling us that you have a personal problem with the idea of "divine investiture of authority" even while thinking that multiple persons can actually be the Holy Ghost?

Somebody looks confused, to me...and I don't think it's me, this time.

*Puts himself back on Paul Ray's ignore list*

Here, let me help you.

You are now on Bat-Man's ignore list for the next 3 days.

... and Yes, I said 3 days.

[consiglieri]

You are now on Bat-Man's ignore list for the next 3 days.

... and Yes, I said 3 days.

What? I'm sorry. I can't hear you. I'm on your ignore list. What was that?

[Bat-Man]

In addition to stn9's quotes (thanks for those), here's another:

Joseph Smith, 27 August 1843, Temple Grove. From: Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245, Franklin D. Richards "Scriptural Items":

Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.

So, my bat-friend, given your comments, and that you claim to accept Joseph Smith as a prophet, you must believe that the Holy Ghost, being a spirit personage, at some point will be born of woman and live on Earth as Christ did. You don't think there will be NO Holy Ghost to fill that role during that time do you? Of course the Holy Ghost is an office. How else could it possibly work? That's one reason why he's never named, unlike the other members of the Godhead. The Holy Ghost is simply a spirit who is delegated power by the Father to testify of the Father and the Son. We most suppose that any spirit can be delegated this power and fill this function, as the Father wills it. In fact, one way of looking at Joseph's comment above, given his use of the word "probation" which is virtually always used in prophetic discourse to mean mortal life, is that the Holy Ghost (the one he was speaking of) was currently on the Earth in his mortal probation during Joseph's time, while another being filled that role. Has to happen sometime, right?

Let's not make the assumption that because I'm asking questions I don't already know the answers, okay?

We'll save a little time, that way.

I do know how to find out what is true.

[consiglieri]

Are you now telling us that you have a personal problem with the idea of "divine investiture of authority" even while thinking that multiple persons can actually be the Holy Ghost?

The 20th century Mormon Doctrine of "divine investiture of authority" has nothing to do with the Holy Ghost being an office.

Thanks for the help, anyway.

In addition to stn9's quotes (thanks for those), here's another:Joseph Smith, 27 August 1843, Temple Grove. From: Words of Joseph Smith, p. 245, Franklin D. Richards "Scriptural Items":

Joseph also said that the Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.

Now, this is of great interest!

If the Holy Ghost should pass through the same or similar course of things to what the Son has, would that mean he would be a savior?

And if he so, what exactly would he be the savior of, I wonder?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Let's not make the assumption that because I'm asking questions I don't already know the answers, okay?We'll save a little time, that way.I do know how to find out what is true.

Yeah, we've heard it before.

You know all the answers because God told you.

Next!

[Bat-Man]

What? I'm sorry. I can't hear you. I'm on your ignore list. What was that?

Silly Night Stalker,

Being on my ignore list doesn't mean I can't hear you, or read your comments.

Letting you know that I have placed your name on my ignore is simply a nice way (from my perspective) of letting you know that I won't be responding to all of your comments, and perhaps not even reading any of them.

... but I can still read them, and respond to them, if I want to.

[wenglund]

I am enjoying the speculative spiritual meat being dished out on this thread in abundance. But, I wonder if this board is the appropriate table where such discussions may best be served, particularly given the milk-drinkers (like myself) who may be seated or lurking about--not to mention the wolves looking in with an eye to making offenders for a word?

Besides, how will this discussion make us better people and increase our capacity to love?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[Log]

Consig is not particularly interested in that perspective, Wade. Every member a cyber missionary ends at this board, apparently.

[Bat-Man]

I am enjoying the speculative spiritual meat being dished out on this thread in abundance. But, I wonder if this board is the appropriate table where such discussions may best be served, particularly given the milk-drinkers (like myself) who may be seated or lurking about--not to mention the wolves looking in with an eye to making offenders for a word?

No, this isn't the best place, but any place can be a good place to learn something good.

Besides, how will this discussion make us better people and increase our capacity to love?

I love you, Wade.

There.

Does that help make it a little bit better?

[John Larsen]

Besides, how will this discussion make us better people and increase our capacity to love?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Since when is that the purpose of this board? I have read too many of your posts to know that generally, that is not your goal.

[kamenraider]

We render praise, and honor, and thanksgiving to the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost; or in other words, Holy Spirits. This idea may give you a particle of light. I do not, however, pretend to say how many spirits the Lord has sent forth; but the Holy Spirit that Jesus promised to his disciples, the ancients enjoyed, and so does every man who understands the way of the Lord and has had committed to him the Keys of the Everlasting Priesthood; they are exhorted to seek and enjoy a Holy Spirit.

--Brigham Young, Feb. 12, 1854, The Teachings of President Brigham Young, Vol. 3, ed. by Fred C. Collier, SLC: Collier's 1987, pg. 237.

As far as Adam revealing Christ, who said "Behold my beloved Son" or "This is my beloved Son" to Moses, at the baptism of Jesus, to Joseph Smith, etc. ?

[LDSMusic483]

As far as Adam revealing Christ, who said "Behold my beloved Son" or "This is my beloved Son" to Moses, at the baptism of Jesus, to Joseph Smith, etc. ?

Wellllllll....apparently according to Consig...if we put Joseph Smiths teachings together with Brigham Youngs teachings...Adam is both God the Father AND the Holy Ghost! Why not just go for the trifactor?!

[LDSMusic483]

The 20th century Mormon Doctrine of "divine investiture of authority" has nothing to do with the Holy Ghost being an office.

Thanks for the help, anyway.

Now, this is of great interest!

If the Holy Ghost should pass through the same or similar course of things to what the Son has, would that mean he would be a savior?

And if he so, what exactly would he be the savior of, I wonder?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Yeah, we've heard it before.

You know all the answers because God told you.

Next!

Now one thing on your interpretation of what the HG may pass through if He is faithful. Either it is talking about Him passing through similar events for a different creation grouping, or the Son whose examples He will be able to follow is from a previous creation period, and not ours. It seems that JS was speaking of two distinctly separate people and that the HG would be able to do that which the Son had already or would already have accomplished by the time the HG attains the status of being a Savior.

edited to add that the Holy Ghost could very well have been speaking as Christ by divine investiture. An angel spoke as though Christ in revelations and had to tell John not to worship him. I think the interesting thing to point is that in that self-same sentence, it says the Holy Ghost bears witness of the Father and the Son. Why would He then turn around and bear witness of Himself as the Son? Seems to me they should be three separate individuals at that point.

[consiglieri]

As far as Adam revealing Christ, who said "Behold my beloved Son" or "This is my beloved Son" to Moses, at the baptism of Jesus, to Joseph Smith, etc. ?

Stop messing with my mind, man!

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

Wellllllll....apparently according to Consig...if we put Joseph Smiths teachings together with Brigham Youngs teachings...Adam is both God the Father AND the Holy Ghost! Why not just go for the trifactor?!

The trifecta would be complete if we can take the one teaching that Brigham Young claimed to receive by revelation (that Adam is our Father and our God), and understand it in terms of latter-day revelation and the teachings of Joseph Smith . . . don't you think?

As I have indicated, if Michael is the Holy Ghost, we do away with the rather strange notion that there are two distinct and different Godheads in Mormonism.

This is something that has been staring Mormonism in the face so long, I just thought I would put it out there to see the reaction.

May I ask how it is the Holy Ghost became a God before the creation of this earth if he was not already an exalted being?

May I ask how it is that Jesus Christ became a God before the creation of this earth if he was not already an exalted being?

Although there are many things that are doubtless not set forth in scripture, the Doctrine and Covenants admit of only one path to exaltation and godhood.

Why must we insist that the Holy Ghost and Jesus Christ are an exception and not simply two more instances of the rule?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[consiglieri]

It seems that JS was speaking of two distinctly separate people and that the HG would be able to do that which the Son had already or would already have accomplished by the time the HG attains the status of being a Savior.

I tend to agree with your analysis.

But why just the Holy Ghost who will follow in the footsteps of Jesus? What makes him so special, or any different from the rest of us according to current LDS teaching? I find no answer in what is commonly taught today.

At the risk of blasphemy, I would extrapolate this statement of Joseph Smith's one step further and suggest that you and I, if true and faithful, may pass through the same or a similar course to what the Holy Ghost has.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[LDSMusic483]

The trifecta would be complete if we can take the one teaching that Brigham Young claimed to receive by revelation (that Adam is our Father and our God), and understand it in terms of latter-day revelation and the teachings of Joseph Smith . . . don't you think?As I have indicated, if Michael is the Holy Ghost, we do away with the rather strange notion that there are two distinct and different Godheads in Mormonism.This is something that has been staring Mormonism in the face so long, I just thought I would put it out there to see the reaction.May I ask how it is the Holy Ghost became a God before the creation of this earth if he was not already an exalted being?May I ask how it is that Jesus Christ became a God before the creation of this earth if he was not already an exalted being?Although there are many things that are doubtless not set forth in scripture, the Doctrine and Covenants admit of only one path to exaltation and godhood. Why must we insist that the Holy Ghost and Jesus Christ are an exception and not simply two more instances of the rule?All the Best!--Consiglieri

So are you purporting that Jesus has received more than one physical body? I believe there is one path to become as God the Father...THAT is purported in the scriptures. It says nothing of God the Son or God the testator.

I tend to agree with your analysis.But why just the Holy Ghost who will follow in the footsteps of Jesus? What makes him so special, or any different from the rest of us according to current LDS teaching? I find no answer in what is commonly taught today.At the risk of blasphemy, I would extrapolate this statement of Joseph Smith's one step further and suggest that you and I, if true and faithful, may pass through the same or a similar course to what the Holy Ghost has.All the Best!--Consiglieri

Blasphemous and heretical as it may seem to you...I've considered the same. Though the mathematical calculations seem mind boggling if all faithful shall have the opportunity to be Saviors for Billions.

edited to add, I would actually change your idea of thought process. Apparently JS said that if the HG was faithful, He could become as Jesus, and if Jesus is faithful, then He could become as God the Father. Are WE more special that we just go from mere imperfect mortals to God the Fathers status?

[kamenraider]

How did the entire divine council become divine before coming to earth?

(I'm assuming it included people like Joseph Smith, who W. W. Phelps said at his funeral was a member of the Royal Seventy).

If what Joseph Smith said about the Holy Ghost waiting to take a body is true, then we may already have passed through that experience, and may be going through a similar course of things to what the Savior has right now.

Only the firstborn son, who stands at the head of the family of the Father's spirit children can redeem it.

I believe that we can be saviors to our own families though.

It seems to me that we have as our family those who we've acted like the Godhead towards -- we're fathers of our posterity, saviors of our ancestry, and testators to those who we convert through missionary work.

[consiglieri]

edited to add, I would actually change your idea of thought process. Apparently JS said that if the HG was faithful, He could become as Jesus, and if Jesus is faithful, then He could become as God the Father. Are WE more special that we just go from mere imperfect mortals to God the Fathers status?

Now, this last is an excellent question!

Do we really think that, upon exaltation, any of us will suddenly attain the status of Elohim, who is the Creator of worlds without number, and the Creator of countless worlds that have already gone on to their exaltation? (Moses 1)

I think that most of us would guess not. It would seem obvious that a certain rather lengthy and graded course must be followed first.

I am suggesting that that rather lengthy and graded course involves learning and experience in the role of lesser Gods long before we approach the status that Elohim now holds.

Most LDS would agree it is likely that our first creative role in exaltation would be to form our own world, the purpose of which will be as a home for those spirits we beget.

If this is so, we will be god of that world, and that one world only.

My question continues to be, "Who stands in relation to this world as we will stand in relation to our first world?"

It cannot be Elohim, for he is God of worlds without number, many of which have already passed away.

It cannot be Jehovah (Jesus), for he is the author of a multiplicity of worlds, which are created in him, and through him, and of him, and the inhabitants thereof begotten sons and daughters unto God. (D&C 76:22-24)

If the scriptures reveal the identity of the individual who stands in relation to this world as we will stand in relation to our first world, the process of elimination leads inexorably to one conclusion.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

[LDSMusic483]

Now, this last is an excellent question!

Do we really think that, upon exaltation, any of us will suddenly attain the status of Elohim, who is the Creator of worlds without number, and the Creator of countless worlds that have already gone on to their exaltation? (Moses 1)

I think that most of us would guess not. It would seem obvious that a certain rather lengthy and graded course must be followed first.

I am suggesting that that rather lengthy and graded course involves learning and experience in the role of lesser Gods long before we approach the status that Elohim now holds.

Most LDS would agree it is likely that our first creative role in exaltation would be to form our own world, the purpose of which will be as a home for those spirits we beget.

If this is so, we will be god of that world, and that one world only.

My question continues to be, "Who stands in relation to this world as we will stand in relation to our first world?"

It cannot be Elohim, for he is God of worlds without number, many of which have already passed away.

It cannot be Jehovah (Jesus), for he is the author of a multiplicity of worlds, which are created in him, and through him, and of him, and the inhabitants thereof begotten sons and daughters unto God. (D&C 76:22-24)

If the scriptures reveal the identity of the individual who stands in relation to this world as we will stand in relation to our first world, the process of elimination leads inexorably to one conclusion.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Oooh...oooh...Gabriel, right? No wait...Raphael? Hmm....

[kryoung1983]

The trifecta would be complete if we can take the one teaching that Brigham Young claimed to receive by revelation (that Adam is our Father and our God), and understand it in terms of latter-day revelation and the teachings of Joseph Smith . . . don't you think?

As I have indicated, if Michael is the Holy Ghost, we do away with the rather strange notion that there are two distinct and different Godheads in Mormonism.

This is something that has been staring Mormonism in the face so long, I just thought I would put it out there to see the reaction.

May I ask how it is the Holy Ghost became a God before the creation of this earth if he was not already an exalted being?

May I ask how it is that Jesus Christ became a God before the creation of this earth if he was not already an exalted being?

Although there are many things that are doubtless not set forth in scripture, the Doctrine and Covenants admit of only one path to exaltation and godhood.

Why must we insist that the Holy Ghost and Jesus Christ are an exception and not simply two more instances of the rule?

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Who says they are the exception. It seems that you are lumping 'godhood' and 'exaltation' together. You can become a God, or be a God due to your identity prior to your exaltation. What defines Godhood? Psalms 82 seems to imply that the gods were sentenced to be mortal, and Deuteronomy 32 implies godhood as a premortal glory. Who is to say that the term trailing clouds of glory is not true. What glory did we have before we came to this earth. Christ himself says that he had glory that he lost in becoming mortal. Could the same be true for us? Do we only tanscend our previous glory, (gods) and reach exaltation through the atonement of our Savior Jesus Christ. I like to think so.

[consiglieri]

You can become a God, or be a God due to your identity prior to your exaltation.

Although you may be right, I see no support for such a conclusion in the scriptures.

The scriptures consistently mention only one path to godhood, and that path runs through mortality. (See D&C 132.)

Of course, if we are going to say that everybody is a god, even in the premortal existence, then the term is defined to broadly as to lose all meaningful application.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

Oooh...oooh...Gabriel, right? No wait...Raphael? Hmm....

You're getting warm.

[LDSMusic483]

Although you may be right, I see no support for such a conclusion in the scriptures.

The scriptures consistently mention only one path to godhood, and that path runs through mortality. (See D&C 132.)

Of course, if we are going to say that everybody is a god, even in the premortal existence, then the term is defined to broadly as to lose all meaningful application.

All the Best!

--Consiglieri

You're getting warm.

Along the lines of your thinking though...how would you harmonize them with the Brother of Jarods vision of Christ some...what...2000 years before He was born. Definitely a Spirit then. Do you hypothesize any about when you think He may have laid down a physical body?