Joseph Smith As An Egyptologist

[Rommelator]

Kerry Shirts has a new series on youtube on Joseph Smith as an Egyptologist that I find fascinating. IIRC, it is essentially his Sunstone presentation on the Book of Abraham facsimiles in a video format.

I thought I would post these videos and some other links for several reasons.

1. I find them genuinely interesting and hope we here on the MADB can discuss them.

2. Chris Smith, our resident critic of the Book of Abraham, has complained over at Kevin Graham's Book of Abraham message board (which is now down) that after a discussion of Facsimile # 3 here a little while ago, nobody seems to care to continue the conversation. (I am saying it in a much more nicer way that Chris did over there.) So, in other words, I thought I would alive Chris's tension by supplying him with some links on the discussion that I know he is itching to read.

3. I think that these videos and links should genuinely give critics of the Book of Abraham and Joseph Smith something to think about before they continue on any tirade against Joseph Smith.

Well, anyway, Enjoy!

First, these article, provided by Professor Gee and Kevin Barney, should help us in some methodological considerations:

http://www.farms.byu.edu/publications/book...&chapid=168

http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/pdf.php?fi...p;type=cmV2aWV3

On Facsimile # 3:

http://www.farms.byu.edu/publications/book...&chapid=167

http://www.farms.byu.edu/publications/book...&chapid=294

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Hugh-Nibley/TrFac.html (Note: This article also deals with Facsimiles 1 & 2 as well as # 3 all together.)

Kerry Shirts' videos:

(Introduction)

(Part 1)

(Part 2)

(Part 3)

(Part 4)

(Part 5)

(Part 6)

(Part 7)

(Part

(Part 9)

(Part 10)

(Part 11)

(Part 12)

(Part 13)

(Part 14)

[Chris Smith]

I'm familiar with the articles you linked to, as well as with some of Kerry's work. I'm afraid I don't have time to watch all those youtube videos, though. Is there anything particular in these links you wanted to talk about?

[Rommelator]

I'm familiar with the articles you linked to, as well as with some of Kerry's work. I'm afraid I don't have time to watch all those youtube videos, though. Is there anything particular in these links you wanted to talk about?

The hieroglyphic labels in facsimile 3 that you believe constitute the "smoking gun" that Joseph Smith could not understand Egyptian. I believe Kerry talks about them in his videos, starting around # 7, IIRC.

Really, I posted all of the videos because Kerry recommends (and I second that recommendation) that you watch them in order because his arguments develops and evolves into the next point(s) that he makes.

[Chris Smith]

The hieroglyphic labels in facsimile 3 that you believe constitute the "smoking gun" that Joseph Smith could not understand Egyptian. I believe Kerry talks about them in his videos, starting around # 7, IIRC.

Really, I posted all of the videos because Kerry recommends (and I second that recommendation) that you watch them in order because his arguments develops and evolves into the next point(s) that he makes.

Sigh... I wish Kerry would just write his apologetics like a normal person. I'll try to listen to these over the next few days.

[Chris Smith]

Rommelator,

I just listened to number 7, and I have to say that I don't follow Kerry's logic at all. He jumped from talking about Osiris copulating with his mother to saying that this explains Joseph Smith's identification of Isis and Maat as Pharaoh and Prince of Pharaoh. Did I miss a step somewhere in there? If you or he could break it down for me, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

-Chris

[Rommelator]

Rommelator,

I just listened to number 7, and I have to say that I don't follow Kerry's logic at all. He jumped from talking about Osiris copulating with his mother to saying that this explains Joseph Smith's identification of Isis and Maat as Pharaoh and Prince of Pharaoh. Did I miss a step somewhere in there? If you or he could break it down for me, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

-Chris

I think he is elaborating on the divine embrace (hpt-sn) and the fusion of the mortal and the immortal. He was using this as an example of such. As he points out, in Egyptian art, mortals and gods (including Abraham and Osiris, Maat and Pharaoh, etc) could be identified with each other and as each other by various processes.

Did you watch them in order? It is important that you do. Further, I guess that he talks about the labels later on in the videos if it is not in # 7. That is how far I am up to in the series and so I am guessing he elaborates on them further down the line if it is not in 7.

[e=mc2]

Sigh... I wish Kerry would just write his apologetics like a normal person. I'll try to listen to these over the next few days.

I ***HAVE*** written them, over and over and over again, and no one reads them either! So now you get to suffer through videos, which are far stronger because I get ta SHOW the evidence! WOO HOO! lol....... Each video is only allowed to be ten minutes, so relax, it's not like it'd kill you to watch an hour to learn is it? Oh and......yes, I share the beauty of some of my backyard with you also. Since I have been labeled as "The Backyard Professor," and mother nature happens to be one of my favorite subjects also, I give you a little of both, Mother Nature, as well as religious ideas and instructions.

And I am inthe process of doing as exhaustive an analysis as I can on all the figures in all the facsimiles, and Tarski pretending this is equivilant to Nostradamus is simply idiotic arguing. Deal with the EGYPTOLOGICAL evidence, and quite trying to bring in analogy. It is rather direct, and in my opinion, down right stunning.

[Rommelator]

I ***HAVE*** written them, over and over and over again, and no one reads them either!

Or when they do read them, they simply shrug it off as "convoluted" or "roundabout" "tangential" arguments.

Oh and......yes, I share the beauty of some of my backyard with you also. Since I have been labeled as "The Backyard Professor," and mother nature happens to be one of my favorite subjects also, I give you a little of both, Mother Nature, as well as religious ideas and instructions.

I enjoy the nature shots, Kerry.

And I am inthe process of doing as exhaustive an analysis as I can on all the figures in all the facsimiles, and Tarski pretending this is equivilant to Nostradamus is simply idiotic arguing. Deal with the EGYPTOLOGICAL evidence, and quite trying to bring in analogy. It is rather direct, and in my opinion, down right stunning.

Keep us all updated when they are done!!

[e=mc2]

Rommelator,

I just listened to number 7, and I have to say that I don't follow Kerry's logic at all. He jumped from talking about Osiris copulating with his mother to saying that this explains Joseph Smith's identification of Isis and Maat as Pharaoh and Prince of Pharaoh. Did I miss a step somewhere in there? If you or he could break it down for me, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

-Chris

Chris, unfortunately, you have to watch them in order to understand the ancientEgyptian angles and how the Egyptologists are explaining things. No one begins watching a movie starting 45 minutes into it, and then starts criticizing that it is unwatchable and stupid do they? Without context, you are going to be lost in this series. I have tried to make a lot of ten minute videos all self contained. This series was my Sunstone paper that they never published. You could NOT have begun reading it on page 19 and understood one thing in it either. If you read papers beginning at page one then go to page two then page three, trust me, you have a better chance than beginning on page 16 and then complaining you haven't got a clue. Start with the first video and go from there.

[Rommelator]

Chris, unfortunately, you have to watch them in order to understand the ancientEgyptian angles and how the Egyptologists are explaining things. No one begins watching a movie starting 45 minutes into it, and then starts criticizing that it is unwatchable and stupid do they? Without context, you are going to be lost in this series. I have tried to make a lot of ten minute videos all self contained. This series was my Sunstone paper that they never published. You could NOT have begun reading it on page 19 and understood one thing in it either. If you read papers beginning at page one then go to page two then page three, trust me, you have a better chance than beginning on page 16 and then complaining you haven't got a clue. Start with the first video and go from there.

Some good advice, to be sure.

At the risk of sounding like a Kerry Shirts advertisement manager, his videos are really good and a must watch to gain a current understanding of the issues.

[MormonMason]

Rommelator,

I just listened to number 7, and I have to say that I don't follow Kerry's logic at all. He jumped from talking about Osiris copulating with his mother to saying that this explains Joseph Smith's identification of Isis and Maat as Pharaoh and Prince of Pharaoh. Did I miss a step somewhere in there? If you or he could break it down for me, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks,

-Chris

In some of the rituals of the Egyptians; though I confess I have not yet watched the videos, preferring instead to read; I understood that in a couple rituals that Pharoah dressed as a woman. I forget which ritual that was but I see the same pattern in Scottish Rite ritual for the 31

[MormonMason]

One other thing, does Kerry address the Hieratic that was inserted upside down in Facsimile 2 and also the portions taken from other papyri to fill in missing sections? I am just curious.

I swear I plan to watch the videos but really would love and prefer something to download and read later.

Anyone know of a link? Thanks.

[Rommelator]

In some of the rituals of the Egyptians; though I confess I have not yet watched the videos, preferring instead to read; I understood that in a couple rituals that Pharoah dressed as a woman.

Yes, Hugh Nibley disuccsed this in Abraham In Egypt extensively and how it is relevant in not only interpreting Egyptian art but also in interpreting Facsimile 3. I believe it is the Sed Festival that such occurred.

Anyways, I would advise anyone interested to read Nibley's work on it, which I think is on the FARMS website.

[Rommelator]

One other thing, does Kerry address the Hieratic that was inserted upside down in Facsimile 2 and also the portions taken from other papyri to fill in missing sections? I am just curious.

I am not sure, as I have not yet seen all of the videos.

[e=mc2]

One other thing, does Kerry address the Hieratic that was inserted upside down in Facsimile 2 and also the portions taken from other papyri to fill in missing sections? I am just curious.

I swear I plan to watch the videos but really would love and prefer something to download and read later.

Anyone know of a link? Thanks.

I haven't yet, but will sometime in the future.

[Rommelator]

I haven't yet, but will sometime in the future.

Cool. I wonder if anyone from FARMS, maybe Gee or Rhodes, are going to tackle it as well. From what I know, this issue has not been fully addressed.

[Chris Smith]

Kerry,

I did not use the word "stupid"; nor did I (or would I) even think such a thing. However, I really dislike watching video productions. It makes it too hard to check footnotes, comprehend lengthy arguments, and the like. So if you could link me to the written version of this, I'd be eternally grateful. Thanks,

-Chris

[MormonMason]

I haven't yet, but will sometime in the future.

Cool! Looking forward to it. By the way, have you a link to the actual paper you wrote that covers the material you have in your videos? As I said above, I prefer reading to watching videos. Thanks.

[Douglas Hunter]

For someone coming very late to the discussion and not having any background in this particular issue. . . I had understood that the materials in question were from the Egyptian book of the dead, specifically the book of breathing and they have nothing to do with Abraham. I guess you folks are saying you believe otherwise?

I watched the first video, good grief man! ramble, ramble, slow, sidetrack, tangent . . . . there is about 1 minute of actual content in a 10 min. video! Are they all like this?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

For someone coming very late to the discussion and not having any background in this particular issue. . . I had understood that the materials in question were from the Egyptian book of the dead, specifically the book of breathing and they have nothing to do with Abraham. I guess you folks are saying you believe otherwise?

I watched the first video, good grief man! ramble, ramble, slow, sidetrack, tangent . . . . there is about 1 minute of actual content in a 10 min. video! Are they all like this?

Um, They only talk of the facsimilies. Not how or were the BoA came from. If you are one that thinks that the BoA was prduced from the facsimilies or the pieces of papyri, it would seem that there is quite a debate that would suggest that JS had much more than we currently had.

For the record I have never once believe (even before the mission) that the facsimiles were direct translations of the actually BoA, or really any thing to do with the actual text of teh BoA.

The facsimilies represented a wholly separte and unique set of ideas, and explinations.

I do agree that there is a bit much of rambling going on in the videos. I even have ADHD and still managed to watch the 1st 5, so they arent that bad, just fast forward the stuff about nature if you dont want to watch that, that is what I did. Sorry Kerry.

DId I see Mt. Nebo in your videos?

[Douglas Hunter]

Um, They only talk of the facsimilies. Not how or were the BoA came from. If you are one that thinks that the BoA was prduced from the facsimilies or the pieces of papyri, it would seem that there is quite a debate that would suggest that JS had much more than we currently had.

I am aware of that, I have read first person accounts of the scrolls and there sizes. I guess from my limited background discussing the papyri as a distinct issue from the BoA does not make a lot of sense. Maybe if someone has time they can explain why the papyri matter after we agree that they are not the source of the BoA and that JS didn't translate them. Or maybe that's not an area of agreement? What am I missing?

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I am aware of that, I have read first person accounts of the scrolls and there sizes. I guess from my limited background discussing the papyri as a distinct issue from the BoA does not make a lot of sense. Maybe if someone has time they can explain why the papyri matter after we agree that they are not the source of the BoA and that JS didn't translate them. Or maybe that's not an area of agreement? What am I missing?

Lol. Sorry bro. I am having a huge ADHD moment. My brain hurts.

[Rommelator]

I am aware of that, I have read first person accounts of the scrolls and there sizes. I guess from my limited background discussing the papyri as a distinct issue from the BoA does not make a lot of sense. Maybe if someone has time they can explain why the papyri matter after we agree that they are not the source of the BoA and that JS didn't translate them. Or maybe that's not an area of agreement? What am I missing?

I think that it is important to discuss the Joseph Smith Papyri and the Document of Breathings Made by Isis text because it could give us an understanding as to why the Book of Abraham scroll was included with those other materials. The Egyptians are notorious for combining and juxtaposing texts and vignettes from all sorts of places. Almost 40% of BoB documents, for example, have some other text accompanying it. Sometimes these texts have some sort of connection to the BoB, but sometimes they do not. I think with the case of the JSP, we have the standard Egyptian practice of bringing together various texts (including the Book of Abraham and the Document of Isis) onto one papyrus scroll (which would account for why the Brethren in Kirtland tried to line up the hieratic characters with the Book of Abraham text.) Further, considering that the original to Facsimile 1 is in the JSP, it would be important to understand why the Egyptians would have misaligned a vignette from the Book of Abraham text with an improper text such as the Document of Breathings made by Isis (something which they constantly did, that is, misalign texts and vignettes).

Anyways, just some of my rambling. That is why I think it is important to discuss the facsimiles and the BoB papyri. Both are very important.

[Douglas Hunter]

Rommelator,

I want to make sure I am reading you correctly, your position is:

1- That the BoA is indeed a translation of an actual Egyptian document that was part of the larger amount of the Egyptian material that was lost.

2- That the Facsimile that is included in the BOM as being from the BoA isn't but . . .

3- The facsimile is important nonetheless because the Egyptians were in the habit of juxtaposing different texts and so the figuring out of why these texts were juxtaposed may be able to teach us something.

is that right?

[Rommelator]

- That the BoA is indeed a translation of an actual Egyptian document that was part of the larger amount of the Egyptian material that was lost.

Correct.

2- That the Facsimile that is included in the BOM as being from the BoA isn't but . . .

3- The facsimile is important nonetheless because the Egyptians were in the habit of juxtaposing different texts and so the figuring out of why these texts were juxtaposed may be able to teach us something.

is that right?

Close. The facsimiles are apart of the Book of Abraham, IMO, but are/were amongst the Document of Breathings made by Isis material because, as I pointed out, the Egyptians (in this case, Kevin Barney's "J-red") often juxtaposed texts and vignettes that had nothing or little to do with each other. This is something, I have heard, that gives Egyptologists headaches because sometimes they can become distracted because of an improperly (at least based on our standards) placed vignette or text.