Genesis And The Gods

[David Bokovoy]

Sometime ago I had rather a heated discussion with Kevin Graham and a poster named Fortigurn regarding divine council texts in the Old Testament. Though the discussion was not much of a debate, the interaction did serve as partial inspiration for my blog entry regarding the meaning of the phrase â??sons of Godâ? in Semitic languages, including Hebrew.

On a directly related note, a recent post here on the MAAD board by Grego in response to my interpretation of the folktale in Genesis 6 appeared as follows:

I think you often take the myths and stories a little too far over onto "reality".

One example is Genesis 6. How do angels (curious, how did you come up with "gods" here?) have sex with mortals).

In my discussion with Mr. Graham and Fortigurn on the subject, I made the following statement, which answers, in part, Gregoâ??s important question:

In Semitic languages, including Hebrew, the word â??sonâ? often denotes the member of a class or guild.

As a result of the tablets from ancient Ugarit, we know that with respect to the constitutes of the Divine Council, the gods are referred to as â??ilim, bn â??il (â??sons of Elâ?), and bn â??ilm (â??sons of the godsâ?). Thereâ??s a lot of literature on this topic, but an important recent source includes Lowell K. Handy, Among the Host of Heaven: The Syro-Palestinian Pantheon as Bureaucracy (Winona Lake: Eisenbrauns, 1994).

The true connotation of "sons of god" explains why, for example, in his Anchor Bible Commentary, Mitchell Dahood (who was a Ugaritologist and therefore a specialist in this imagery) translates Psalm 89:7 which mentions the â??sons of Godâ? as

â??Who resembles Yahweh among the gods?â? see Psalms 51-100, 307.

It also explains why the translators of the NRSV opted for the scholarly consensus concerning the original version of Deuteronomy 32:8 as a passage mentioning the â??sons of God,â? yet translated the verse â??according to the number of the gods.â?

The Sons of God in Genesis 6 are the gods of the divine council.

To gain some background on the issue you should read Samuel Shavivâ??s recent article, â??The Polytheistic Origins of the Biblical Flood Narrative,â? in Vetus Testamentum, 54 (2004): 527-548.

Shaviv provides evidence that the original source for Genesis 6 seems to have been a Canaanite flood story where Baal, the god of rain, and benevolent El, his father, quarreled because of the human marriages of the Sons of El that Baal perceived as a dangerous threat.

Challenging my interpretation of the biblical phrase â??sons of Godâ? as a reference to the gods of the Divine Council, Fortigurn responded:

I do understand the significance of phrases such as 'sons of God'. I understand, for example, that to the Hebrew the phrase 'sons of God' did not mean 'gods', any more than 'son of Belial' meant 'Belial', or 'son of my right hand' meant 'my right hand'.

In Hebrew, the phrase 'son of X' refers to a class which is characterized by a quality of X. It is not equivalent to X.

Thus:

* 'son of Belial' does not mean 'Belial'

* 'son of my right hand' does not mean 'my right hand'

* 'son of man' does not mean 'man'

* 'son of perdition' does not mean 'perdition'

* 'son of peace' does not mean 'peace'

* 'son of righteousness' does not mean 'righteousness'

* 'son of the morning' does not mean 'the morning'

* 'sons of might' does not mean 'might'

* 'son of Abraham' does not mean 'Abraham'

â?¢ 'son/s of God' does not mean 'god/s'

This information was not accurate and a detailed grammatical consideration of the issue now appears on my MAAD board blog.

All of this, however, brings me to my real point.

Today was one of my favorite days of the year. A couple times each year, Christian Book Distributor opens the doors of its massive warehouse and invites customers to purchase excess orders or slightly damaged/dirty books at tremendous discounts.

Having lived just a few short miles away from Peabody, MA for almost six years now, I canâ??t begin to tell you how many treasures Iâ??ve been able to secure in the academic section as I fight my way through all of the conservative home school mamas/ Jesus camp devotees caring in large suitcases to secure their own unique preferences in light reading.

This morning (for 3.69) I picked up Stephen Mitchellâ??s translation of Genesis published by HarperCollins, which I had never before read. Itâ??s really a fun little read. I particularly enjoyed Mitchellâ??s rendering of Genesis 6, the beginning of which he entitles:

â??The Gods and the Womenâ?:

â??When humans began to multiply on the earth and women were born to them, the gods saw that the women were beautiful, and they took as wives any of them they wanted.

It was in those days that the giants appeared on the earth: when the gods slept with the women, and children were born to them. These were the heroes who lived long ago, the men of great fame.â?

By the way, the best word study for Hebrew is by far the multivolume Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament. Unfortunately, each volume typically runs anywhere from 65 to 100 dollars. Iâ??ve been collecting each volume individually through my trips to the CBD sale.

Unfortunately, I picked up by mistake volumes V and XIII for 16.29 each. They're in perfect condition except for the fact that one is missing the dustcover and the other has the older blue dust cover rather than the new grey version.

Iâ??ll have no problem getting my money back by selling them for the 16.29 I paid to graduate students/professors in the Boston area, but figured I would first offer them to anyone on the board who may be interested in the volumes. Iâ??m not looking to make any money off of the books, but would like to get the 32.58 back.

Any collectors out there feel free to send me a note.

Warm wishes to all,

--David

[David Bokovoy]

Another great purchase today included both volumes of the ICC commentary for Isaiah 40-55 which run about 120.00 each, but for which I paid 33.00 for both volumes which are in perfect condition.

This really has been a glorious day. The only thing that could possibly make it better would be a Cougar victory.

[Uncle Dale]

...

By the way, the best word study for Hebrew is by far the multivolume Theological Dictionary

of the Old Testament. Unfortunately, each volume typically runs anywhere from 65 to 100 dollars.

Iâ??ve been collecting each volume individually through my trips to the CBD sale.

...

In the meanwhile, you can use Google Books to examine numerous excerpts, and perhaps from

the volumes you do not yet have.

As for "the sons of God" being henotheistic godlings, there was indeed a time in Israel's history when

such an implication can be read into the original traditions set down in the early biblical texts. I suppose

that a determination would have to be made, in each passage, as to what those particular "sons" were.

Under the influence of Persian dualism, some of these sons become angels rather than godlings. So, if

we are reading in Enoch or from a biblical text last redacted after the Exile, the possibility of "layered"

meanings must be taken into consideration.

You and I once had a discussion as to the significance of the Deuteronomic reform -- and, as I recall,

you took it to be a monothestic heresy, while I take it to be a just condemnation of both henotheism

and Israelite monolatry. At that point, I suppose, we part ways, and my interpretation of the essential

realities conveyed by the texts will nolonger match well with the literal meanings you find in those

passages (or half-hidden under the radical monotheistic editing).

I can only hope you continue in your studies, not so predisposed by Mormonism as to ignore your own

personal ponderings over what you may thus discover.

Uncle Dale

[structurecop]

â??The Gods and the Womenâ?:

â??When humans began to multiply on the earth and women were born to them, the gods saw that the women were beautiful, and they took as wives any of them they wanted.

It was in those days that the giants appeared on the earth: when the gods slept with the women, and children were born to them. These were the heroes who lived long ago, the men of great fame.â?

David,

First of all, congrats on your finds at the CBD sale. I didn't realize you were so close to Peabody (pronounced in Massachusetts as "Pibidy," I learned). I was near Leominster (Ayer/Devens) for the last three months.

Anyway, I think it's interesting that Mitchell separates the "men of great fame" from the Nephilim. In my reading of Genesis 6:4 the Nephilim are part of a separate clause and just giving a frame of reference for the time when these events were occuring.

Also, perhaps material for a separate thread, it seems to me that the last sentence of verse 4 (These were the heroes that were of old, warriors of renown) refers to a pre-biblical mythological history. What are your thoughts?

[David Bokovoy]

Hello Uncle,

While browsing through some books the other day in Barnes and Noble, it was fun to see your name mentioned in passing in the forward of a book. I couldnâ??t help but think, â??Hey, I really like that guy, even if the Anti-Mormon authors do too!!â?

In the meanwhile, you can use Google Books to examine numerous excerpts, and perhaps from the volumes you do not yet have.

Thanks, Brother, for that suggestion. Iâ??ve never used the feature, but am now intrigued by the possibilities.

Under the influence of Persian dualism, some of these sons become angels rather than godlings. So, if we are reading in Enoch or from a biblical text last redacted after the Exile, the possibility of "layered"

meanings must be taken into consideration.

An excellent point concerning which I certainly agree.

You and I once had a discussion as to the significance of the Deuteronomic reform -- and, as I recall, you took it to be a monotheistic heresy, while I take it to be a just condemnation of both henotheism and Israelite monolatry.

I may have either led you astray or changed my view. I donâ??t quite see the Deuteronomic reform precisely along those lines.

I believe that parts of the reform were inspired, but as a Latter-day Saint, I wouldnâ??t agree with every aspect of the school of thought. The book of Deuteronomy, for example, clearly rejects the earlier view of a corporeal/anthropomorphic deity, a perspective that I myself believe to be true.

For sometime, I too felt convinced that the late biblical authors rejected the earlier forms of biblical henotheism and Israelite monolatry (so I certainly have been open to the possibility that this interpretation accurately reflects historical reality).

As I now see it, the theology is not nearly that easy to define. One thingâ??s for certain: Ancient monotheism (including those small traces that may appear in the Bible) was not the same thing as contemporary monotheism.

I can only hope you continue in your studies, not so predisposed by Mormonism as to ignore your own personal ponderings over what you may thus discover.

Sound advise. I really do strive for objectivity in my studies. I freely admit, however, that the issues I engage and the questions I present when reading a text are directly influenced by my LDS heritage.

On a much more important note, I hope the waves are breaking well in Hawaii. Fall is our best surfing season here in New England, but so far Iâ??m still waiting patiently for our first major swell.

Well, maybe not that patiently.

Best,

--David

[David Bokovoy]

Hello Structurecop,

First of all, congrats on your finds at the CBD sale.

It really is a lot of fun. As always, I scored a large stack of biblical goodies.

I didn't realize you were so close to Peabody (pronounced in Massachusetts as "Pibidy," I learned). I was near Leominster (Ayer/Devens) for the last three months.

Well, now Iâ??m a bit disappointed. We really should have done lunch! You know, I believe that Thomas B. Marsh was from Ayer, but Iâ??ve yet to sit down and trace it out for sure.

Anyway, I think it's interesting that Mitchell separates the "men of great fame" from the Nephilim. In my reading of Genesis 6:4 the Nephilim are part of a separate clause and just giving a frame of reference for the time when these events were occuring.

Also, perhaps material for a separate thread, it seems to me that the last sentence of verse 4 (These were the heroes that were of old, warriors of renown) refers to a pre-biblical mythological history. What are your thoughts?

Interesting questions. Iâ??m going to sit down and pour over the Hebrew again and get back to you. Wonâ??t happen until after I watch the Cougars beat up on UCLA though.

Best,

--David

[structurecop]

Well, now Iâ??m a bit disappointed. We really should have done lunch!

I always seem to find these things out afterwards.

You know, I believe that Thomas B. Marsh was from Ayer, but Iâ??ve yet to sit down and trace it out for sure.

That is interesting. It was amazing to me, being from the west, how historic all of the little towns are.

Interesting questions. Iâ??m going to sit down and pour over the Hebrew again and get back to you. Wonâ??t happen until after I watch the Cougars beat up on UCLA though.

Well, usually I wouldn't say this, but, Go Cougs!

[Ron Beron]

I, like David, have been fascinated with this concept because its inclusion in Genesis seems a bit odd and a lot like a folktale or at best reflects a feeling of another culture that seemed to conflate itself with a similiar Hebrew account.

The verse in question:

1 AND it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

And as a result

5

[e=mc2]

BOkovy:

You said

Unfortunately, I picked up by mistake volumes V and XIII for 16.29 each. They're in perfect condition except for the fact that one is missing the dustcover and the other has the older blue dust cover rather than the new grey version.

Iâ??ll have no problem getting my money back by selling them for the 16.29 I paid to graduate students/professors in the Boston area, but figured I would first offer them to anyone on the board who may be interested in the volumes. Iâ??m not looking to make any money off of the books, but would like to get the 32.58 back.

KERRY WANTS THESE PLEASE....... THANKS for the offer my friend. I also am collecting these, and don]t have these two volumes yet.

[structurecop]

I, like David, have been fascinated with this concept because its inclusion in Genesis seems a bit odd and a lot like a folktale or at best reflects a feeling of another culture that seemed to conflate itself with a similiar Hebrew account.

The verse conjured an image of figures like Hercules and Achilles -- half god/half man types who don't seem to appear elsewhere in Hebrew bible accounts.

[rameumptom]

The verse conjured an image of figures like Hercules and Achilles -- half god/half man types who don't seem to appear elsewhere in Hebrew bible accounts.

But other early writings do discuss traditions of the giants and the "Watchers." The Ethiopian book of Enoch, book of Jubilees, etc. The Watchers are even in a few of the Dead Sea Scrolls. BTW, the giants are mentioned in the Book of Moses in our own Pearl of Great Price, as having threatened the life of Noah and fighting Enoch. The Watchers were angels of God who came to earth to teach righteousness, but fell for the beautiful mortal women and begat children, instead.

Some of the early writings suggest that the Watchers (which sometimes included Cain) taught their children special skills, such as music, etc. These heavenly skills were then placed within a secret guild/brotherhood, where they were used to get gain.

In the 2nd Book of Adam and Eve, it tells that Lamech's son, Genun, was guided to make seductive musical instruments and clothing, which seduced many of the children of Adam down from the Cave of Treasures in the mount, to the wickedness awaiting them in the valley below. Interestingly, we get this in the volume, "Meanwhile the children of Seth, who were on the Holy Mountain, prayed and praised God, in the place of the hosts of angels who had fallen; wherefore God had called them 'angels' because He rejoiced over them greatly."

We also see that "the daughters of Cain lusted after the sons of Seth like ravening beasts, and the sons of Seth after the daughters of Cain, until they committed abomination with them."

The Slavonic Secrets of Enoch tells us, "these are the Grigori, who with their prince Satanail rejected the Lord of light, and after them are those who are held in great darkness on the second heaven, and three of them went down on to earth from the Lord's throne to the place Ermon, and broke through their vows on the shoulder of the hill Ermon and saw the daughters of men how good they are, and took to themselves wives and befouled the earth with their deeds, who in all times of their age made lawlessness and mixing, and giants are born and marvellous big men and great enmity."

So, there are many ancient texts that support the idea of fallen angels. Now, whether they were immortal angels, men who were born into this world with a calling and rejected it, or whatever, we aren't certain. However, I feel that a statement from Eve in the Book of Moses suggests the particular fall. After having had many children (and them have children of their own), Adam and Eve are explained the fullness of the gospel by an angel at the altar. They finally understand the reason for the Fall and why they offer sacrifice. Their next child, Cain, comes with a hope on Eve's lips: "I have begotten a son in the Lord." Why is this babe different than his older siblings? He is born in the fullness of the gospel light and covenant. Yet, when he slays Abel and seeks after the worldly women around him, he takes the secrets given him by Adam and God's voice, and uses them to build his empire of gain.

Hugh Nibley suggested that the secrets were passed down to Lamech, who boasting in bloodily defending the secret oath/guild, spilled the information to his wives, who then spread it everywhere. At that point, the world began to be filled with evil, ready for the Flood.

[structurecop]

But other early writings do discuss traditions of the giants and the "Watchers." The Ethiopian book of Enoch, book of Jubilees, etc. The Watchers are even in a few of the Dead Sea Scrolls. BTW, the giants are mentioned in the Book of Moses in our own Pearl of Great Price, as having threatened the life of Noah and fighting Enoch. The Watchers were angels of God who came to earth to teach righteousness, but fell for the beautiful mortal women and begat children, instead.

Based on my reading, the giants and the Watchers (however they may be defined) are separate phenomena and only linked together to give a time frame reference.

[Ron Beron]

I have also been fascinated with this concept because its inclusion in Genesis seems a bit odd and a lot like a folktale or at best reflects a feeling of another culture that seemed to conflate itself with a similiar Hebrew account.

The verse in question:

1 AND it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,

2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.

3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

And as a result

5

[Ron Beron]

BOkovy:

You said

Unfortunately, I picked up by mistake volumes V and XIII for 16.29 each. They're in perfect condition except for the fact that one is missing the dustcover and the other has the older blue dust cover rather than the new grey version.

I'll have no problem getting my money back by selling them for the 16.29 I paid to graduate students/professors in the Boston area, but figured I would first offer them to anyone on the board who may be interested in the volumes. I'm not looking to make any money off of the books, but would like to get the 32.58 back.

KERRY WANTS THESE PLEASE....... THANKS for the offer my friend. I also am collecting these, and don]t have these two volumes yet.

Now wait a minute, Kerry! I also want these interesting bit of arcane knowledge. Besides, all they would end doing is making you smart or something. I cannot allow that...for the good of all of us. Oh...what the heck. I spend too much on books anyway and I guess you guys don't have too many bookstores in Idaho anyway. Take them. Give them a good home.

[Ron Beron]

Based on my reading, the giants and the Watchers (however they may be defined) are separate phenomena and only linked together to give a time frame reference.

There is really interesting legends among the Indians of Calfornia's Big Sur region and propagated by poet Robinson Jeffers and author John Steinbeck. All of them speak of large mysterious "people' who can be seen in the fogs and shadows of the trees up in Big Sur.

[Uncle Dale]

...

On a much more important note...

Good to see you've got your priorities in proper order.

When can I next expect to see a major FR contribution under your moniker?

UD

[Ron Beron]

Hello Structurecop,

Won't happen until after I watch the Cougars beat up on UCLA though.

Best,

--David

hehehehehe....hahahahaha...UCLA rules!

[Ron Beron]

bump

[charity]

Ron Beron:

[Ron Beron]

Ron Beron:

Can I help it if I'm a Bruins fan? Remember, UCLA is part of mi barrio.

[urroner]

Can I help it if I'm a Bruins fan? Remember, UCLA is part of mi barrio.

Well, which part of your burro is UCLA? The back end?

As far as you not being able to help being a Bruins fan, I know several alcoholics who couldn't help themselves either.

Ace, get help. It's out there. Being a UCLAholic isn't the end of a good life, there is still hope. You can overcome it. I'll pray for your miserable soul.

Don't end up like this UCLA graduate:

This is your brain: BYU

This is your brain on drugs: UCLA

[Ron Beron]

Well, which part of your burro is UCLA? The back end?

As far as you not being able to help being a Bruins fan, I know several alcoholics who couldn't help themselves either.

Ace, get help. It's out there. Being a UCLAholic isn't the end of a good life, there is still hope. You can overcome it. I'll pray for your miserable soul.

Hey! I resemble that remark! Actually, I have gone to a 12 step program, but it hasn't helped. While I hate LA I love 'da Bears. Don't even mention USC.

BTW, that's BARRIO not BURRO...