Bokovoy - Heiser

[LifeOnaPlate]

You guys are really running this joke into the ground.

-LifeOnaPlate (author of the blog called "Life On Gold Plates," currently reading the Journal of discourses entire and blogging what he finds interesting.)

[Bill Hamblin]

Shameful!

Daniel C. Peterson,

author of the recent biography Muhammad: Prophet of God

(available on Amazon.com)

When I do it, it's skillful marketing, when you guys do it, it's shameless self-aggrandizement.

William J. Hamblin

(Who in his more lucid moments--however few they may be--realizes it's not how many books you write that counts, but how many people read them.)

[stn9]

"Some people say that it is not right to seek to aggrandize one's own self, that self-aggrandizement is not a good principle." "But," said he, "I say it is a true and godlike principle; but it can be done permanently, justly and righteously in only one way or upon only one plan in order to be eternal in its durability. If any person will build up others; and permanently aggrandize others, he in turn will be aggrandized eternally . . ." (Excerpt from a forthcoming book on teachings of Joseph Smith).

I can hardly argue with the above, therefore . . . I highly recommend Hamblin's book. It's brilliant. (What's it called again?) And his other books, too. And Peterson's as well. And some others, too. Oh wait, I'm not an author so I can't be self-aggrandizing! Dangnabit! I guess I have to take it all back, the aggrandizing of others, I mean.

[LifeOnaPlate]

When I do it, it's skillful marketing, when you guys do it, it's shameless self-aggrandizement.

William J. Hamblin

(Who in his more lucid moments--however few they may be--realizes it's not how many books you write that counts, but how many people read them.)

Go read my blog. Millions shall know the Journal of Discourses again. Or for the first time.

[Jan]

When I do it, it's skillful marketing, when you guys do it, it's shameless self-aggrandizement.

William J. Hamblin

(Who in his more lucid moments--however few they may be--realizes it's not how many books you write that counts, but how many people read them.)

And, if the excitement at the FAIR conference about your and Dr. Seely's presentation is any indication, your book will sell really well.

Jan (who is the other of inumberable mind-numbing but legally required policies, procedures, training manuals; one published book [an annotated transcription of a 1917 family history/journal with photos and a compiled genealogy of 2,000 ancestral slots]; and an article on the government's mandated infringement on patient privacy that was published on [an obscure site on] the Web and some attorney found it and thought he'd dug up some real dirt on me!)

[urroner]

You guys are so funny, I go on a trip to Sea World with my family and a bunch of clowns take over the thread. Had me LOL.

[e=mc2]

That's our job, now shut up and laugh.

[Zakuska]

Clowns scare me!

http://www.glumbert.com/media/clownphobia

[e=mc2]

Clowns are cute, ya woos.......

[David Bokovoy]

Just a few impressions from a well-written exchange.

Thanks J Green for sharing your ideas concerning Book of Mormon connections with the Adam/council imagery. Iâ??m continually amazed at how well the Book of Mormon captures such complex biblical/Near Eastern imagery.

Hello LifeonaPlate,

I have a question for David: You rely somewhat on what seem to be non-Christian, and non-Jewish sources in several places, which parallelism reminded me a little of Nibley. I wonder how open critics are to bringing in "pagans" as sources to substantiate, deepen, or explain a claim.

Of course it depends greatly upon how one defines the term critic.

While some conservative Christians might wish to view the Bible as some sort of pristine collection, uninfluenced by its environment, Biblical scholars attempt to place the Bible in its ancient Near Eastern setting by considering the Mesopotamian, Hittite, Canaanite, and even to some extent, the Egyptian influences upon the authors.

As I suggested in one of the footnotes, Assyriology is especially important for a Biblicist. The Old Testament temples, laws, literally styles, treaties, creation accounts, and even council imagery were heavily influenced by Mesopotamian traditions.

In other words, without Babel there would be not Bible.

Best,

--DB

[LifeOnaPlate]

Thanks, David. It makes sense.

By the way, you didn't blow your presentation at the conference, nice work.

[J Green]

I also liked the fact the Heiser is calling for further study, interaction, analysis, etc., from all parties, Evangelicals and LDS. It seems to me that some maturing is going on with the Christian scholars, and it is rather nice to see.

I agree, Kerry. In his essay "Canon as Dialogue," James A. Sanders says the following about interfaith dialogue between Christians and Jews:

An integral part of interfaith dialogue between Jews and Christians would be reading Scripture, and each other's traditions about it, together. Even if not, there should be a pledge on the part of all who join the dialogue, whenever Scripture is read, to imagine that the other is overhearing what is said and thinking about what is read. I have recently asked if those of us who think that interfaith dialogue is important cannot at least pretend that there is but One God, and hence read Scripture as though others were present and listening.

I think this applies to our conversations with others within the Christian community as well. The Bokovoy-Heiser exchange, and others like it, are good attempts at the principle. Others like Aaron Schaff would do well to listen and learn.

[J Green]

Hello, LOAP:

I have a question for David: You rely somewhat on what seem to be non-Christian, and non-Jewish sources in several places, which parallelism reminded me a little of Nibley. I wonder how open critics are to bringing in "pagans" as sources to substatiate, deepen, or explain a claim.

I know the question is for David, but I find the use of the external sources to be fascinating, especially in this exchange. Heiser makes use of them frequently--e.g, when he tells evangelicals that the elohim do indeed represent divine beings:

Externally, it is well known among Semitists and scholars of the

Hebrew Bible that the phrases bĕn

[J Green]

Cheers, David:

While some conservative Christians might wish to view the Bible as some sort of pristine collection, uninfluenced by its environment, Biblical scholars attempt to place the Bible in its ancient Near Eastern setting by considering the Mesopotamian, Hittite, Canaanite, and even to some extent, the Egyptian influences upon the authors.

Agreed. To quote Sanders again ("Canon as Dialogue"):

Earlier in the century the German pan-Babylonian school of biblical study had claimed that archaeological findings were showing how dependent the Bible was on extrabiblical Near Eastern sources. This apparently served in an earlier day to raise similar questions of history and faith. Paul Tillich once said that when he was a young theologian in Dresden in the late twenties he dreaded reading the paper each morning for fear that he would have to take another step backward in his faith. Such an attitude indicates that archaeology can enhance or discourage faith by affirming or denyng its historical origins, and hence archaeology became a force to contend with by the beginning of this century. Today the situation has considerably changed so that one tends now to thank God for the Canaanites and others who have contributed to Scripture in various ways, and one expects considerably less from archaeology either to prove or to disprove the faith.

In other words, without Babel there would be not Bible.

What, opposition in all things?

Regards

[e=mc2]

Interesting about this interfaith dialogue idea you bring up J Green (may I call you JG for short? - it's better than "JG Short" - ) because in my recent studies on Isaiah 53 and all the Servant Songs (so-called), I have noticed that the interfaith dialogue between Christians and Jews is sometimes rather vehement. It is utterly incredibly fasciating to me how various scholars of various faiths can show parallels, ideas, and close grammatical analysis of the Hebrew and Septuagint Greek and who find good justification for not only their translations, but also their interpretations, and they are diametrically opposite and completely across the scale, through the scale, and in some cases absolutely off the scale! I am doing a huge write up on it, and might present it to our beloved DCP for a FARMS Occassional Paper, or somethin like that. First I have to get him to realize my name isn't "Who?" Eh, you have some influence on our beloved DCP don;t you? Give him a good word for me. I need all the help I can get, what with Urroner's trashing me to DCP for the FAIR Conference and all.......GRIN!

Best to you and yours,

Kerry

[J Green]

Hi, Kerry

may I call you JG for short? - it's better than "JG Short"

JG the Short has a nice ring to it . . . sort of Lord Farquod-ish.

I have noticed that the interfaith dialogue between Christians and Jews is sometimes rather vehement. It is utterly incredibly fasciating to me how various scholars of various faiths can show parallels, ideas, and close grammatical analysis of the Hebrew and Septuagint Greek and who find good justification for not only their translations, but also their interpretations, and they are diametrically opposite and completely across the scale, through the scale, and in some cases absolutely off the scale!

I find this intriguing as well. As a common starting off point for Rabbinic Judaism, Christianity, and other forms, Middle Judaism should be a chance for to build common ground around common orgins, yet it seems to have the opposite effect as well.

I am doing a huge write up on it, and might present it to our beloved DCP for a FARMS Occassional Paper, or something like that. First I have to get him to realize my name isn't "Who?" Eh, you have some influence on our beloved DCP don;t you? Give him a good word for me.

Just put the final copy on top of a box of Krispy Kremes. That should do the trick.

Regards

[urroner]

JG, you're talking to WHO?????

[e=mc2]

Since the almost almighty great "HisBishopness" has not confessed his sin unto thee oh faithful Urroner, the Backyard Professor Lord Kerry shall do thus via proxy due to the love in his magnaminous heart. DCP now knows WHO I am, yes he talked with me at the FAIR conference, and he told me to be sure and tell you that he felt really, REALLY bad about it, but my shing and sparkling personality was no match for his Stoic determination to ugnore such vitality, and thus he fell into sin. I felt really bad for him about his stumbling also, so I continued talking to him for the rest of the conference, off and on. See? I tried to help you out!

[urroner]

Since the almost almighty great "HisBishopness" has not confessed his sin unto thee oh faithful Urroner, the Backyard Professor Lord Kerry shall do thus via proxy due to the love in his magnaminous heart. DCP now knows WHO I am, yes he talked with me at the FAIR conference, and he told me to be sure and tell you that he felt really, REALLY bad about it, but my shing and sparkling personality was no match for his Stoic determination to ugnore such vitality, and thus he fell into sin. I felt really bad for him about his stumbling also, so I continued talking to him for the rest of the conference, off and on. See? I tried to help you out!

Lies, lies, all lies.

BTW, what is "shing" and "ugnore?" IS that what potato leaf snorting does to ones brain?

[Zakuska]

No. Thats what you git for sleep'n with hot taters in yur bed.

[e=mc2]

Yer both wrong, it came from tater tots.

[Zakuska]

Huh?

I thought thats what Ider-ho-wans called there young children.

[e=mc2]