Anoter Chapter In The Seyffarth Chronicles

[Chris Smith]

Yeah, my point if that your claim that apologists were running from Qlb because of their new-found geocentric position doesn't hold water.

Gtaggart,

Perhaps the reason we've been talking past each other is that you're fixating on a statement I made that I really consider irrelevant to the topic at hand. I stated that "all the apologists" have "converted" to a geocentric model. This was an imprecise and hyperbolic statement, as I explained to you before; such statements are bound to be made over the course of a message board discussion, which is by nature informal. I really don't understand why you seem so offended by the statement. In any case, allow me to restate my position more clearly for you, enuncumbered by any commitment to that earlier statement.

The significance of Arabic qlb's meaning "heart, center" is much more evident within the confines of a more traditional Mormon understanding of the BoA's view of the universe than it is in the geocentric model. For example, Elder Orson Pratt spoke of "a certain great central body called Kolob" (JD 15:253). A similar view, namely that Kolob is centrally located, has been advanced by George Reynolds and Janne M. Sjodahl (Commentary on the Pearl of Great Price, Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1965, 267), J. Reuben Clark Jr. ("Kolobâ??The Governor," unpublished manuscript, 1958), Eric N. Skousen (Earth in the Beginning, pages 230-234), Lynn M. Hilton (The Kolob Theorem: A Mormon's View of God's Starry Universe, 2005), and others. Even Michael Dennis Rhodes has said that "The concept of a number of planets of 'the same order' as the earth is incompatible with a geocentric point of view. If anything, it would be a Kolob-centric system."

What Rhodes calls the "Kolob-centric" system is built on several inferences from the text of the BoA/GAEL/Facs 2 explanation. Among other things, Kolob is the grand governing star of "all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest" (Abr 3:2,9). The "government" of Kolob has generally been thought of as the effect of gravitation. As I said before, the meaning of Arabic qlb "heart" or "center" is very interesting when viewed from a Kolob-centric perspective, especially since God says he named it that "because it is near unto me" (Abr 3:3). Based on this passage we would expect some kind of etymological connection between Kolob and the abode of God; centrality provides a convenient solution. Less interesting are Kalb at-tai-man and the other proposals for connecting Kolob to a specific star name, especially since Kalb at-tai-man refers to the "heart of the south", which has nothing to do with being "near to the throne of God". Proposals for identifying Kolob with a particular star have been multiplied, with the much-lauded Canopus being little more impressive in my mind than the Sirius option forwarded by Peterson et al.

In short, my opinion is that outside a Kolob-centric system, the significance of the etymological connection to Arabic qlb is substantially diminished. Of course, it was never entirely convincing anyway, since it is a connection to Arabic rather than to Egyptian or Hebrew.

Presumably there may still be hope for the qrb-"near unto" connection, especially in light of Abraham 3:3. But the dishamorny of the middle consonant may yet prove an insuperable obstacle for this proposed Hebrew etymology.

Isn't that, exactly, what you have been trying to do all along with all of this BOA stuff?

Not at all. A "gotcha" refers to catching another poster in a slip-up in order to score debater brownie points. I am much more interested in understanding the issues surrounding the Book of Abraham. I can understand if gtaggart thought my original post was an attempt at a "gotcha" and was merely responding in kind, but that really was not the purpose of the OP at all.

Best,

-CK

[gtaggart]

Gtaggart,

Perhaps the reason we've been talking past each other is that you're fixating on a statement I made that I really consider irrelevant to the topic at hand. I stated that "all the apologists" have "converted" to a geocentric model. This was an imprecise and hyperbolic statement, as I explained to you before; such statements are bound to be made over the course of a message board discussion, which is by nature informal. I really don't understand why you seem so offended by the statement. In any case, allow me to restate my position more clearly for you, enuncumbered by any commitment to that earlier statement.

The significance of Arabic qlb's meaning "heart, center" is much more evident within the confines of a more traditional Mormon understanding of the BoA's view of the universe than it is in the geocentric model. For example, Elder Orson Pratt spoke of "a certain great central body called Kolob" (JD 15:253). A similar view, namely that Kolob is centrally located, has been advanced by George Reynolds and Janne M. Sjodahl (Commentary on the Pearl of Great Price, Salt Lake City: Deseret News Press, 1965, 267), J. Reuben Clark Jr. ("Kolobâ??The Governor," unpublished manuscript, 1958), Eric N. Skousen (Earth in the Beginning, pages 230-234), Lynn M. Hilton (The Kolob Theorem: A Mormon's View of God's Starry Universe, 2005), and others. Even Michael Dennis Rhodes has said that "The concept of a number of planets of 'the same order' as the earth is incompatible with a geocentric point of view. If anything, it would be a Kolob-centric system."

What Rhodes calls the "Kolob-centric" system is built on several inferences from the text of the BoA/GAEL/Facs 2 explanation. Among other things, Kolob is the grand governing star of "all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest" (Abr 3:2,9). The "government" of Kolob has generally been thought of as the effect of gravitation. As I said before, the meaning of Arabic qlb "heart" or "center" is very interesting when viewed from a Kolob-centric perspective, especially since God says he named it that "because it is near unto me" (Abr 3:3). Based on this passage we would expect some kind of etymological connection between Kolob and the abode of God; centrality provides a convenient solution. Less interesting are Kalb at-tai-man and the other proposals for connecting Kolob to a specific star name, especially since Kalb at-tai-man refers to the "heart of the south", which has nothing to do with being "near to the throne of God". Proposals for identifying Kolob with a particular star have been multiplied, with the much-lauded Canopus being little more impressive in my mind than the Sirius option forwarded by Peterson et al.

In short, my opinion is that outside a Kolob-centric system, the significance of the etymological connection to Arabic qlb is substantially diminished. Of course, it was never entirely convincing anyway, since it is a connection to Arabic rather than to Egyptian or Hebrew.

Presumably there may still be hope for the qrb-"near unto" connection, especially in light of Abraham 3:3. But the dishamorny of the middle consonant may yet prove an insuperable obstacle for this proposed Hebrew etymology.

Thanks. Until now, we apparently have been talking past each other. I'll admit that initially I was calling you on your hyperbole--gotcha, if you want. However, after that I was simply confused by your argument for some reason.

[Olavarria]

Hello Her Amun,

My apologies if I misunderstood you

Its cool essay, sometimes I misunderstand myself.

.

My reading of your post hinged upon what was apparently a misinterpretation of the following statements:

I took this to mean that the BoA had been passed down by Egyptian priests and that the BoB was a remnant of it. But apparently you meant that the BoA had served as the basis for some Egyptian religious ideas, and that the BoB reflects those ideas. Is that an accurate statement of your view? Frankly, you present something of a moving target, and it's hard to keep track of exactly what you're arguing for. As an example, I present the following quotation:

Ya, Im pretty much changing my views once a month Mainly, because Im learning someting new all of the time.

My view is:

1)The BoA was written by Abe and that its circulation was crazy limited for it was esoteric and from an egyptian view might be considered blasphemous.

2) Some aspects of egyptian religion come from the religion of Adam. I think that is represented in the BoB and other documents.

Chapter 162 and the hypocephalus show up fairly late... something like 600 BC, if I recall correctly. Given that, where exactly do you think they fit into the Prophet's translation effort?

I think about all of the time. Im intrigued by it. At times I am purely catalyst with the text of the BoA, with the facsimilies serving as divinly inspired modern redactions. At other times, I toy with the missing scroll theory, with facsimilies and the BoB as ancient attachments by an ancient egyptian or jewish redactor. So to answer your questian, I dont know. All I know is that the Prophet was somehow right and that the BoA is divine. Transmission issues are secondary.

I have come to 2 definate conclusions:

1) Mormon or not, we must constantly strive to understand what these documents meant to the egyptians themselves. Just as some modern day non-mo, americans misunderstand mormon religion, even though when the texts are in their native language,the practioners are alive and things can be viewed live, I think it is with in the realm of possibility that when looking at ancient egyptian relgious documents...oh I dont know....we might be misunderstanding some things. Hence the Nibly mantra, ask the right questians and keep on looking.

2) The Prophet's explanation of the Facsimilies and those of egyptology are simply two sides of the same coin. The more I understand the pagan egyptian meaning of these images, which were not drawn up by Abraham but must have been added aftere the fact, the more Joseph's explanations come alive; the more they make sense. I understand that for some people the opposite happends. Oh well, in the end we are only responsible for our selves.

If I am right, and the BoA was preserved as some kind of esoteric work among some egyptian priests then that might explain why modern egyptologist known nothing about it, perhaps it was only 1 or 100 copies which were had in all of egyptian history. If it were ever discovered it might have been destroyed, for it undermined Pharoah's priesthood. Call it the "limited circulation theory" ala limited geography n the BoM.

[sigh]"Probably, perhaps,could have, usto could" Im sounding like an anti.

You say that the Prophet specifically referred to writings about Osiris-Sheshonk, but in other cases he doesn't seem to have dealt with the Egyptian documents in a straightforward way.

No the Prophet is purposly leaving such things untranslated.

Fig. 8, "Contains writings that cannot be revealed unto the world; but is to be had in the Holy Temple of God";

Fig. 9, "Ought not to be revealed at the present time";

Fig. 10, "Also";

Fig. 11, "Also. If the world can find out these numbers, so let it be. Amen."

This is what they spell out in egyptian:

Fig. 11, "O god of the sleeping ones from the time of creation"

Fig. 10, "O mighty god, lord of heaven and earth"

Fig. 9, "the netherworld (below the earth) and his great waters"

Fig. 8, "grant that the soul of Osiris Sheshonk may live."

Sheshonk is the owner of the hypo. In the egyptain views, he is now the Osiris Sheshonk because he a priest, possesing the secret knowledge and rituals required to be Osiris(a god). Sounds kinda mormon to me.

Why should this be any different? I'm just looking for some sort of organizing principle.

Frankly I dont have one. Upward and onward.

In any case, the use of seemingly-nonsensical magical phrases in late-date papyri doesn't necessarily tell us about scribal practice in Abraham's day.

I never said it did. All I am saying is that because a word does not have a readily available egyptian etymology that does not mean that it didnt mean something to the ancients.

Do we find the same phenomenon in 1500 BC?

Dunno. But why would it have to? Abraham wasnt egyptian. If egyptians ever used these words then its only because they were introduced to them by Abe in the BoA. And if the text was in extremly limited circulation......

Pappy Abe wasn't an Arab either.

He didnt speak hebrew either, but he was a semite so looking at similiar words in other semetic languages for understanding of Kolob is not out of bounds.

I disagree about Kolob, as the closest star to the throne of God, being near the "center of cosmic significance" from a geocentric perspective. I simply don't think an ancient person would have expressed things this way. It seems like a real stretch to me.

In the end, who knows? My ability to read the minds of the deseceased has waned as of late But I think the word kolob fits nicely in Fac 2. Since the figure is in the center of it all. Mind you, I dont think Kolob is arabic or hebrew. All I, or anyone else is saying, is that Kolob shares roots with such words, giving us hints as to its meaning. Same goes for the Assyrian "qarabu", "to be close".

For Kolob(who knows what it is) to have have a meaning similiar to "heart" or "center" , it is not required for it to be in the spacial center of the universe, if there even is a center. Lets not for get the egyptian "m q3b", meaning: " In the midst of"(Faulkner, A Consise Dictionary of Middle Egyptian. Oxford Griffith Institute, 1962 pg 275). Has the invocalic R been lost?

In arabic, some of the brightest stars in the sky have qalb attached to their names.

Antares is qalb al aqrab, "heart of the scorpion", since . fitting since Antares is the brightest star in the scorpio constelation.

Regulus is Qalb al Asad, "heart of the Lion" , being the brightest star in Leo.

I dont think any Saudi thinks either star is at the center of the universe.

How ancient?

His name was connected by this author, at this time with a lion couch. This is the distinction I'm trying to get across. One author's association of the name of Abraham with a lion couch scene does not tell us that in all of ancient Egypt Abraham was connected with a lion couch.

I never said he was connected "in all of ancient EGypt". If the BoA is the esoterica I think it is, then it wouldnt need to be. Its a questian of some vs none.

If you're not drawing a broader inference, then why the frequent postings on this subject?

-CK

Cuz it looks cool. It shows:

1) some ancient egyptian priests knew about Abraham 2) He has connected to a lion couch,Anubis and mummy.

If that isnt cool then this is: Master P and the Mormons(actually I only like the first 30 seconds)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iy-wtZkkV3I

Indeed. Her Amun's favorite papyrus is VERY late - about 2,000 years later than the conjectural date of Abraham, if he ever really existed.

And your point is.........

Leiden 384 and Hor BoB both come from the Greco Roman period of egyptian history, "about 2,000 years later than the conjectural date of Abraham".

[Olavarria]

bump

[Chris Smith]

Hello Her Amun,

I'm mostly done with this conversation for the moment I think, but I'll respond to a few of your points.

[sigh]"Probably, perhaps,could have, usto could" Im sounding like an anti.

Somebody famous once said that the problem with the world is that fools are so sure of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

No the Prophet is purposly leaving such things untranslated.

Fig. 8, "Contains writings that cannot be revealed unto the world; but is to be had in the Holy Temple of God";

Fig. 9, "Ought not to be revealed at the present time";

Fig. 10, "Also";

Fig. 11, "Also. If the world can find out these numbers, so let it be. Amen."

This is what they spell out in egyptian:

Fig. 11, "O god of the sleeping ones from the time of creation"

Fig. 10, "O mighty god, lord of heaven and earth"

Fig. 9, "the netherworld (below the earth) and his great waters"

Fig. 8, "grant that the soul of Osiris Sheshonk may live."

Sheshonk is the owner of the hypo. In the egyptain views, he is now the Osiris Sheshonk because he a priest, possesing the secret knowledge and rituals required to be Osiris(a god). Sounds kinda mormon to me.

My point is, the Prophet didn't actually "translate" any of the Egyptian text. Why should we assume he had any more understanding of the text he left untranslated than of the text he "translated"?

He didnt speak hebrew either, but he was a semite so looking at similiar words in other semetic languages for understanding of Kolob is not out of bounds.

That's true; either Eblaite or Akkadian would be the logical places to start.

But I think the word kolob fits nicely in Fac 2. Since the figure is in the center of it all. Mind you, I dont think Kolob is arabic or hebrew.

Facsimile 2 was described by one Nauvoo visitor as "a curious map of the solar system". Perhaps Kolob's centrality to the facsimile is suggestive of its centrality to BoA astronomy. If the Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar reflects actual BoA astronomy, the geocentric system is not possible. It's very clear from the Alphabet and Grammar that Flos-isis, the sun or "King of Day", is at the center of the solar system. So I think you're better off giving up geocentrism than giving up the Kolob connection, even if the latter isn't in a probable Abrahamic language like Akkadian or Eblaite.

Do keep in mind Abr. 3:3, hich suggests that Kolob was so named because of its physical location, not because of its centrality to the hypocephalus.

All I, or anyone else is saying, is that Kolob shares roots with such words, giving us hints as to its meaning. Same goes for the Assyrian "qarabu", "to be close".

It shouldn't be too hard to trace this root back to Akkadian or Eblaite.

-CK

[Olavarria]

Why Eblaite?

[Chris Smith]

John M. Lundquist, "Was Abraham at Ebla? A Cultural Background of the Book of Abraham," in Robert L. Millet and Kent P. Jackson, eds., Studies in Scripture (Salt Lake City: Randall Book, 1985), 225-37.

Haven't read it, but I understand it argues for an Eblaite locale for Abraham's "Chaldean" home.

[Olavarria]

John M. Lundquist, "Was Abraham at Ebla? A Cultural Background of the Book of Abraham," in Robert L. Millet and Kent P. Jackson, eds., Studies in Scripture (Salt Lake City: Randall Book, 1985), 225-37.

Haven't read it, but I understand it argues for an Eblaite locale for Abraham's "Chaldean" home.

Ah yes, he argues for Ur being in N. Syria or Turkey, as was the traditional location of Ur Kassidim before the late 1800's. If that is the case, then the Olishem/Ulisim parrallel would fit rather nicely given that Naram Sin's Ulisim was probably in Syria.

CK sent me a copy of that paper, get it from him.