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Dan Vogel On J. Smiths Intentions?


jason e.

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"I can't name 10 latter-day saints who know you, by the way. (Other than maybe people at FARMS, FAIR, or this board.) :P"

-really? i can (and you probabally know more lds people than i do)

"I was under the impression I should read Brigham Young's own words, but here you have encouraged me instead to rely on "several websites which can display accurate history of the Church or BY wether[sic] waste [my] breath or not.""

-are you serious here? you have done one of two things here both incriminating to you;

1- you truly dont understand that hes tal;king about sites that have by's writings

or

2- you knew that your just being a smart aguy

Not only can't you write, Jason, you also can't read.

There is a difference between Brigham Young's writings simpliciter and Brigham Young's writings as folded, spindled, mutilated and then spun by an anti-Mormon hate-monger with a website.

Do you get it now?

"I've read most of the Journal of Discourses,"

-i doubt this on the basis that i have, in the past said so many direct quoytes from there and you were like "no, so and so never said that.".

For example?

If you're going to call someone a liar, you'd better be able to back it up. LOAP claims to have read most of the JoD. I find his claim credible. Explain why your knee-jerk accusation should be more so.

(plus if you really read them you probabally not be lds anymore

That is quite false, Jason. Actually for those of us who have ever read them in their entirety, instead of merely regurgitating the standard anti-Mormon prooftexts, ripped out of context as they are, they provide nothing that is even remotely threatening to our faith.

So sorry to disappoint you, but the more you rant, the more like a cookie-cutter anti-Mormon you sound.

Regards,

Pahoran

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-really? i can (and you probabally know more lds people than i do)

Birds of a feather...

Yes, I am serious here. Click the link in my sig, my blog contains some of my findings.

As for me "being a smart aguy," am I to understand you are phonetically typing with an Itallian accent?

Wow, so the JoD would make me really leave the Church? jason e. allow me to introduce you to my friends Reason and Context.

By the way, can I ask who or what the the locknest monster is?

"am I to understand you are phonetically typing with an Itallian accent?"

-this is funny, i like it.

"allow me to introduce you to my friends Reason and Context."

-wait you actually know what those words mean? or is that just another way of saying mental gymnastics?

oh goodness im just playing!

seriously though what were your findings from the jod? it seems like some of those things would have to shake you up at least a little bit, no? not even one? (should i get some of the crazy ones out and you can clarify context and drop some reason bombs? it seems in the past there is not often appeals to reason and context rather "o he wasnt speaking as a prophet")

-thanks

jason e.

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Not only can't you write, Jason, you also can't read.

There is a difference between Brigham Young's writings simpliciter and Brigham Young's writings as folded, spindled, mutilated and then spun by an anti-Mormon hate-monger with a website.

Do you get it now?

For example?

If you're going to call someone a liar, you'd better be able to back it up. LOAP claims to have read most of the JoD. I find his claim credible. Explain why your knee-jerk accusation should be more so.

That is quite false, Jason. Actually for those of us who have ever read them in their entirety, instead of merely regurgitating the standard anti-Mormon prooftexts, ripped out of context as they are, they provide nothing that is even remotely threatening to our faith.

So sorry to disappoint you, but the more you rant, the more like a cookie-cutter anti-Mormon you sound.

Regards,

Pahoran

"So sorry to disappoint you, but the more you rant, the more like a cookie-cutter anti-Mormon you sound."

-this is kind of a bummer, im really not even anti mormon (i love mormons, heck im going to marry one) but i hate mormonisim. not the messengers, just the message. also in person im very gracious but i know on blogs like this we are able just to be staright and present our facts with no sugar, but since they are so ardently opposed to your views than you just wright me off as a cookie cutter anti-mormon, i understand.

"folded, spindled, mutilated and then spun by an anti-Mormon hate-monger"

-well, to be honest when i usually present my texts there are never accusations of me spinning, or mutilating the text, most people just parrot the same old "well he wasnt speaking as a prophet." we can do a specific one if youd like as a case study? and see if i am mutilating or spinning... and if your final words will be that or "well they are not perfect..."

"If you're going to call someone a liar, you'd better be able to back it up. LOAP claims to have read most of the JoD. I find his claim credible. Explain why your knee-jerk accusation should be more so."

- yeah i was being facicious (i hope you can decipher that one)

"Actually for those of us who have ever read them in their entirety, instead of merely regurgitating the standard anti-Mormon prooftexts"

-uh oh you just knee jerked. I HAVE READ THEM!!!!! as well as all the volumes of hist of the church!!!! but io realize most people havent so no offense taken.

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seriously though what were your findings from the jod? it seems like some of those things would have to shake you up at least a little bit, no? not even one? (should i get some of the crazy ones out and you can clarify context and drop some reason bombs? it seems in the past there is not often appeals to reason and context rather "o he wasnt speaking as a prophet")

-thanks

jason e.

Wow, kinda backtracking from that whole 'calling LifeOnaPlate a liar" thing, eh?

I don't need you to go searching your anti-Mormon sites for more excerpts from the Journal of Discourses. I've already read the stuff, my good sir, and while I don't agree or understand every single thing I read in them, they have some great quotes, stories, and interpretations of doctrine that I hadn't considered before.

You can apologize for calling me a liar now, though. Or you can claim you were "kidding." Either way, it wasn't true, or it wasn't funny, so take your pick.

You've read the entire History of the Church and the Journal of discourses? When did you ever find the time?

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Wow, kinda backtracking from that whole 'calling LifeOnaPlate a liar" thing, eh?

I don't need you to go searching your anti-Mormon sites for more excerpts from the Journal of Discourses. I've already read the stuff, my good sir, and while I don't agree or understand every single thing I read in them, they have some great quotes, stories, and interpretations of doctrine that I hadn't considered before.

You can apologize for calling me a liar now, though. Or you can claim you were "kidding." Either way, it wasn't true, or it wasn't funny, so take your pick.

You've read the entire History of the Church and the Journal of discourses? When did you ever find the time?

"You can apologize for calling me a liar now, though. Or you can claim you were "kidding." Either way, it wasn't true, or it wasn't funny, so take your pick. "

i called you a "liar" huh? this is what i said;

""I've read most of the Journal of Discourses,"

-i doubt this on the basis that i have, in the past said so many direct quoytes from there and you were like "no, so and so never said that." (plus if you really read them you probabally not be lds anymore.

see all i said was "i doubt this" sorry dude.

"I don't need you to go searching your anti-Mormon sites for more excerpts from the Journal of Discourses. "

-yes this is the response i expected

Not only can't you write, Jason, you also can't read.

There is a difference between Brigham Young's writings simpliciter and Brigham Young's writings as folded, spindled, mutilated and then spun by an anti-Mormon hate-monger with a website.

Do you get it now?

For example?

If you're going to call someone a liar, you'd better be able to back it up. LOAP claims to have read most of the JoD. I find his claim credible. Explain why your knee-jerk accusation should be more so.

That is quite false, Jason. Actually for those of us who have ever read them in their entirety, instead of merely regurgitating the standard anti-Mormon prooftexts, ripped out of context as they are, they provide nothing that is even remotely threatening to our faith.

So sorry to disappoint you, but the more you rant, the more like a cookie-cutter anti-Mormon you sound.

Regards,

Pahoran

interesting how i submited something (fast + booze). you didnt believe it and wanted facts. i gave you the facts and no you have nothing to say.

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"You can apologize for calling me a liar now, though. Or you can claim you were "kidding." Either way, it wasn't true, or it wasn't funny, so take your pick. "

i called you a "liar" huh? this is what i said;

""I've read most of the Journal of Discourses,"

-i doubt this on the basis that i have, in the past said so many direct quoytes from there and you were like "no, so and so never said that." (plus if you really read them you probabally not be lds anymore.

see all i said was "i doubt this" sorry dude.

"I don't need you to go searching your anti-Mormon sites for more excerpts from the Journal of Discourses. "

-yes this is the response i expected

But did you expect this response [from the Journal of discourses; reminds me of someone I know]:

"I can sum up all the arguments used against Joseph Smith and "Mormonismâ? in a very few words, the merits of which will be found in OLD JOE SMITH. IMPOSTOR, MONEY DIGGER. OLD JOE SMITH. SPIRITUAL WIFE DOCTRINE. IMPOSTURE. THE DOCTRINE IS FALSE. MONEY DIGGER. FALSE PROPHET. DELUSION. SPIRITUAL WIFE DOCTRINE. Oh, my dear brethren and sisters, keep away from them, for the sake of your never dying souls. FALSE PROPHETS THAT SHOULD COME IN THE LAST DAYS. OLD JOE SMITH. ANTI-CHRIST. MONEY DIGGER, MONEY DIGGER, MONEYDIGGER. And the whole is wound up with an appeal, not to the good sense of the people, but to their unnatural feelings, in a canting, hypocritical tone, and there it ends.â?[JoD 1:103-112]

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But did you expect this response [from the Journal of discourses; reminds me of someone I know]:

but he was a money digger. even by and bushman admit it. so what does your quote prove?

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Joseph Smith's motives??! How in the world in someone in 2007 supposed to know what Joseph Smith's motives were?? I don't even know what my motives are half the time! How can anybody be so presumptuous to think that they know what the motives were of somebody more than a century and a half ago?

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but he was a money digger. even by and bushman admit it. so what does your quote prove?

Not only Bushman, but Joseph Smith himself admitted to it!!!! I'm surprised, since you have supposedly read the entire History of the Church, that you missed such a nail-in-the-coffin quote!

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"So sorry to disappoint you, but the more you rant, the more like a cookie-cutter anti-Mormon you sound."

-this is kind of a bummer, im really not even anti mormon (i love mormons, heck im going to marry one) but i hate mormonisim.

Yes, that is the standard, hackneyed, anti-Mormon mantra, as recited by all the cookie-cutter anti-Mormons. All except for the "im[sic] going to marry one" bit. That is original to you.

BTW, does your fiancee know what you really think of her faith, or are you deceiving her about that until after the wedding?

Care to give us her and her parents' contact details so we can invite her here to see you speaking out of the abundance of your heart?

not the messengers, just the message. also in person im very gracious but i know on blogs like this we are able just to be staright and present our facts with no sugar, but since they are so ardently opposed to your views than you just wright me off as a cookie cutter anti-mormon, i understand.

I'm simply describing what I see.

-uh oh you just knee jerked. I HAVE READ THEM!!!!! as well as all the volumes of hist of the church!!!! but io realize most people havent so no offense taken.

You and Walter Martin both, eh?

So you've read all 26 volumes. Impressive. But did you actually understand any of it? Your ability to parse a simple English sentence has yet to be demonstrated.

Regards,

Pahoran

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faithful mormon Charles L. Walker was at there and recorded the following;

Sun., Nov. 21,1880.... Bro. Milo Andress ... Spoke of blessings and power of God manifested in the Kirtland Temple. Said he once asked the Prophet who [why?] he (Milo) did not feel that power that was spoken of as the power which was felt on the day of Pentecost? ... when we had fasted for 24 hours and partaken of the Lord's supper, namely a piece of bread as big as your double fist and half a pint of wine in the temple, I was there and saw the Holy Ghost descend upon the heads of those present like cloven tongues of fire ("Diary of Charles L. Walker," 1855-1902, excerpts typed, 1969, p.35).

William Harris;

In the evening, they met for the endowment. The fast was then broken by eating light wheat bread, and drinking as much wine as they saw proper. Smith knew well how to infuse the spirit which they expected to receive; so he encouraged the brethren to drink freely, telling them that the wine was consecrated, and would not make them drunk ... they began to prophecy, pronouncing blessings upon their friends, and curses upon their enemies. If I should be so unhappy as to go to the regions of the damned, I never expect to hear language more awful, or more becoming the infernal pit, than was uttered that night (Mormonism Portrayed, pp.31-32).

Mormon Apostle George A. Smith;

"... after the people had fasted all day, they sent out and got wine and bread.... they ate and drank.... some of the High Counsel of Missouri stepped into the stand, and, as righteous Noah did when he awoke from his wine, commenced to curse their enemies (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.216).

William E. McLellin,former apostle'

"As to the endowment in Kirtland, I state positively,. Not only myself was not endowed, but no other man of the five hundred who was present - except it was with wine" (True Latter-Day Saints' Herald, XIX, 437, as cited in Hearts Made Glad, p.137).

(the previous quotes were taken from various books and websites at different times but im sure are easy to find as i have included the ref for the actuall texts)

I have to point out the humorous nature of this particular post, given all the mistakes in spelling, grammer, and html, it makes one wonder who is the real drunk.

At any rate, this attack is nothing new. Matter of fact, Joseph Smith isn't alone. It seems Jesus himself had issues with alcohol and getting people drunk. Or so his contemporaries said...

The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber,[this is essentially the same term as our "drunk," or "whine-o"] a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children. (Matthew 11:19)

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Not only Bushman, but Joseph Smith himself admitted to it!!!! I'm surprised, since you have supposedly read the entire History of the Church, that you missed such a nail-in-the-coffin quote!

you have supposedly read the entire History of the Church

-oh my goodness strike up the band and the tears, we have hypocrisy!!!!!! calling nme a liar huh, or at least alluding to it.

and yeah not only did i read all the volumes i also read them in braile! yes sir!!!!

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Yes, that is the standard, hackneyed, anti-Mormon mantra, as recited by all the cookie-cutter anti-Mormons. All except for the "im[sic] going to marry one" bit. That is original to you.

BTW, does your fiancee know what you really think of her faith, or are you deceiving her about that until after the wedding?

Care to give us her and her parents' contact details so we can invite her here to see you speaking out of the abundance of your heart?

I'm simply describing what I see.

You and Walter Martin both, eh?

So you've read all 26 volumes. Impressive. But did you actually understand any of it? Your ability to parse a simple English sentence has yet to be demonstrated.

Regards,

Pahoran

Yes, that is the standard, hackneyed, anti-Mormon mantra, as recited by all the cookie-cutter anti-Mormons. All except for the "im[sic] going to marry one" bit. That is original to you.

-yes!!!

BTW, does your fiancee know what you really think of her faith, or are you deceiving her about that until after the wedding?

-yes and she is almost over it (all i do is have her read books like the critical edition of lucy smiths book the original book of commandments the original book of mormon mormon enigma... i dont even need to say anything, i just show changes.

Care to give us her and her parents' contact details so we can invite her here to see you speaking out of the abundance of your heart?

-her parents know where i stand and so they arent so into me ( i dont blame them though if i thought i had the truth and then some kid was trying to make my daughter bw what i believed to be an abomination to the lord is be upset too). as for you speaking with her i always try tpo get her to come on here or be with me when we chat with the missionaries or the bishopric but she just interested . seriosuly though i would love to have her come on here and read lifeonaplante's posts and then she would for sure adiso the church.

I'm simply describing what I see.

You and Walter Martin both, eh?

-i dont get it.

So you've read all 26 volumes. Impressive. But did you actually understand any of it?

-yes i did, i saw it was full of many truths and full of many lies.

Your ability to parse a simple English sentence has yet to be demonstrated.

-but i have stumped you and lifeonanotherplante like 3 times now with no rebuttals and that means much more to me.

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faithful mormon Charles L. Walker was at there and recorded the following;

He was "at there," was he? Is that the same Charles Walker who recorded the excommunication of Amasa M. Lyman?

Sun., Nov. 21,1880.... Bro. Milo Andress ... Spoke of blessings and power of God manifested in the Kirtland Temple. Said he once asked the Prophet who [why?] he (Milo) did not feel that power that was spoken of as the power which was felt on the day of Pentecost? ... when we had fasted for 24 hours and partaken of the Lord's supper, namely a piece of bread as big as your double fist and half a pint of wine in the temple, I was there and saw the Holy Ghost descend upon the heads of those present like cloven tongues of fire ("Diary of Charles L. Walker," 1855-1902, excerpts typed, 1969, p.35).

William Harris;

In the evening, they met for the endowment. The fast was then broken by eating light wheat bread, and drinking as much wine as they saw proper. Smith knew well how to infuse the spirit which they expected to receive; so he encouraged the brethren to drink freely, telling them that the wine was consecrated, and would not make them drunk ... they began to prophecy, pronouncing blessings upon their friends, and curses upon their enemies. If I should be so unhappy as to go to the regions of the damned, I never expect to hear language more awful, or more becoming the infernal pit, than was uttered that night (Mormonism Portrayed, pp.31-32).

Mormon Apostle George A. Smith;

"... after the people had fasted all day, they sent out and got wine and bread.... they ate and drank.... some of the High Counsel of Missouri stepped into the stand, and, as righteous Noah did when he awoke from his wine, commenced to curse their enemies (Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.216).

William E. McLellin,former apostle'

"As to the endowment in Kirtland, I state positively,. Not only myself was not endowed, but no other man of the five hundred who was present - except it was with wine" (True Latter-Day Saints' Herald, XIX, 437, as cited in Hearts Made Glad, p.137).

(the previous quotes were taken from various books and websites at different times but im sure are easy to find as i have included the ref for the actuall texts)

That's quite all right, Jason. Let's review what you've told us.

1) First, please note that this does not relate to what I was talking about. When I mentioned "Angelic visitations" that "were critical events in the Restoration" and "brought about significant and tangible results," I was naturally referring to the visits of Moroni, of Peter, James and John, etc. So you have aimed at the wrong target.

2) Second, let us please note that of your four sources, one is second hand and almost half a century late; two are undeniably hostile and brazenly exaggerating at best, while the most reliable-looking one simply mentions bread and wine. Now Jason, since you have presented us with not the slightest reason to imagine that you are or ever have been a Christian of any description, so you probably don't know this, but Christians have always partaken of bread and wine in remembrance of Christ's sacrifice. And it is common in many traditions to partake of the sacrament, or holy communion, after fasting.

3) I also notice that of the four quotations, the two non-hostile ones are heavily larded with ellipses. Hmmm, I wonder why?

In any event, you have failed entirely to discredit my original point.

So much for your triumphalistic bloviations.

Regards,

Pahoran

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BTW, does your fiancee know what you really think of her faith, or are you deceiving her about that until after the wedding?

-yes and she is almost over it (all i do is have her read books like the critical edition of lucy smiths book the original book of commandments the original book of mormon mormon enigma... i dont even need to say anything, i just show changes.

So in fact you don't really love her at all; this is just a deconversion project on your part.

Got it.

Care to give us her and her parents' contact details so we can invite her here to see you speaking out of the abundance of your heart?

-her parents know where i stand and so they arent so into me ( i dont blame them though if i thought i had the truth and then some kid was trying to make my daughter bw what i believed to be an abomination to the lord is be upset too). as for you speaking with her i always try tpo get her to come on here or be with me when we chat with the missionaries or the bishopric but she just interested .

So is upsetting her parents the object of the anti-Mormon deceptions you are foisting upon their daughter, or is that just a bonus?

You and Walter Martin both, eh?

-i dont get it.

That's not all you don't get.

So you've read all 26 volumes. Impressive. But did you actually understand any of it?

-yes i did, i saw it was full of many truths and full of many lies.

And can you cite anything that isn't one of the standard, cookie-cutter anti-Mormon prooftexts?

Your ability to parse a simple English sentence has yet to be demonstrated.

-but i have stumped you and lifeonanotherplante like 3 times now with no rebuttals and that means much more to me.

If you really believe that, then you are living in Fantasyland.

Regards,

Pahoran

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He read them in braille? I will apologize for any cracks at your spelling if, in fact, you are blind? I ask this in all seriousness; are you?

PS- How have I been "stumped"? Was one of the instances the comment about the locknest monster? Indeed, I was stumped at that one.

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He was "at there," was he? Is that the same Charles Walker who recorded the excommunication of Amasa M. Lyman?

That's quite all right, Jason. Let's review what you've told us.

1) First, please note that this does not relate to what I was talking about. When I mentioned "Angelic visitations" that "were critical events in the Restoration" and "brought about significant and tangible results," I was naturally referring to the visits of Moroni, of Peter, James and John, etc. So you have aimed at the wrong target.

2) Second, let us please note that of your four sources, one is second hand and almost half a century late; two are undeniably hostile and brazenly exaggerating at best, while the most reliable-looking one simply mentions bread and wine. Now Jason, since you have presented us with not the slightest reason to imagine that you are or ever have been a Christian of any description, so you probably don't know this, but Christians have always partaken of bread and wine in remembrance of Christ's sacrifice. And it is common in many traditions to partake of the sacrament, or holy communion, after fasting.

3) I also notice that of the four quotations, the two non-hostile ones are heavily larded with ellipses. Hmmm, I wonder why?

In any event, you have failed entirely to discredit my original point.

So much for your triumphalistic bloviations.

Regards,

Pahoran

yeah keep telling yourself that.

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So in fact you don't really love her at all; this is just a deconversion project on your part.

Got it.

-no, i love her so much as to try to speak tp her in an attempt to save her soul from the pit.

So is upsetting her parents the object of the anti-Mormon deceptions you are foisting upon their daughter, or is that just a bonus?

-neither i dont want to upset her parents at all, but i understand that "the gospel is offensive to those who are perishing.

That's not all you don't get.

-your right i cant get how anyone with brain would say the things you say.

And can you cite anything that isn't one of the standard, cookie-cutter anti-Mormon prooftexts?

-thats fine. thats like someone telling me "all you do is just site the classic christian quotes" and my response to both is "amm yeah, naturally."

If you really believe that, then you are living in Fantasyland.

-oh my gosh i just got a time share over there!!! you should come visit (o actually you probabally are the mayor)

Regards,

Pahoran

He read them in braille? I will apologize for any cracks at your spelling if, in fact, you are blind? I ask this in all seriousness; are you?

-yeah so hat of it!

PS- How have I been "stumped"? Was one of the instances the comment about the locknest monster? Indeed, I was stumped at that one.

just cursious are you 22 years old returned missionary living in provo (i am!!!)

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are you calling me a liar! weep weep.

but are you?

No, I have made light of your spelling errors, etc., and if they are a result of blindness I owe you an apology. I know people who, despite their blindness, have computers allowing them to use the internet, the sites are often read audibly by a program made for the purpose. If you read the History of the Church in braille, I wondered if in fact you are blind. If I wanted to call you a liar I would investigate whether the HC has been released in Braille. If not, then I'd call you a liar.

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No it isn't. The most charitable view "among those who don't believe the BOM is historical" is that he believed it to be true and did not knowingly use deception "to fufill his mission." It is far more charitable to think him misguided, deluded, or otherwise gullible than to think he was "inspired to use deception."

I can see how you might think that would be more charitable than pious fraud, but it's not really a viable alternative. The fact that he carried around an object in a box or concealed in a cloth, which he claimed were the gold plates, pretty much rules out unconscious fraud or self-delusion. So, instead of inventing false alternatives, why don't you admit that pious fraud is more charitable than a very prevalent opinion that he was an unpious fraud. Which would you prefer non-Mormon to have?

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This is not a valid way to attack the credibility of a witness! Witness testimony must be taken on its own face. You want to show that there is reasonable doubt as to the witness, it has to be within the witness and his character and testimony. Otherwise you are stuck in a loop.

That would be true if I were questioning the witnesses honesty, but I'm not. Since hallucination is probable, I would rather rely on the physical evidence, which always trumps eye-witness testimony.

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I can't name 10 latter-day saints who know you, by the way. (Other than maybe people at FARMS, FAIR, or this board.) :P

The apologists on this board and others come from all over the world. Ray, who made the statement under discussion, is located in Australia. Isn't the internet amazing?

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"If you are too cheap to buy the book"

-ouch.

Just joking.

-was he this the entire time or do you think other motives were weaving ion and out?

I'm only suggesting that one of the main reasons for beginning the fraud was pious; there were undoubtedly others.

what do we say about joseph "king of zion," or "general," or not allowing others to translate or use theor rods... the quotes comparing himself with Jesus and saying he did greater by keeping a church together...?

Remember, JS didn't separate religion and government.

-and, if you dont mind, what are some other poular theories you have entertained or read in this regard?

JS the scoundrel

JS the deluded

JS the real prophet

JS the demon inspired

thanks alot

-jason e.

No problem.

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