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The Argument Of Faith Or Logic


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Paul Osborne, the independent Egyptological student of the Book of Abraham that a lot of folks don't really like has just handed Kevin Graham *THE* answer to all of Kevin's intellectual problems. After his (Kevin's)ranting, once again, against the Book of Abraham and LDS apologetics on this subject, Paul Osborne noted some very interesting things that are worth emphasizing since they are precisely what the scriptures teach.

The Church of Jesus Christ is based on faith. Our religion is all about faith. People join the Church because of the testimony they receive from the Holy Ghost and spiritual manifestations. No one need expect proof in order to substitue faith, as you know there aren't very many people who will say they have spoken with Christ face to face. We take on our belief in Christ through our faith and the feelings of the Holy Ghost.

So why am I telling you all this? Look, I believe God purposely set things up so that his children would NOT join his Church unless they first developed faith in reaching out to God regardless of what other issues they may have heard or understand about Church controversies. The Lord wasn't about to make the challenge easy! What kind of test would that be?

This is an interesting take of Paul's that I differ about however.

Look again, Keven; you must focus on the feelings of the Holy Ghost which you have experienced - those things that revealed to you the truthfulness of the restoration. Lay aside the things that make the Church look suspicious and trust those feelings and thoughts given by the Holy Ghost. In time all the questions will be completely answered to your full satisfaction. Please don't let your critical thinking destroy your testimony of the restoration. I would hate to see you fail the test that God set up. There is so much we don't understand. There is so much we do understand that is wrong.

That's right! My friend Paul Osborne said this, and it's something we LDS apologists have said, but we take it in the teeth for. Paul, so far as I can tell, is correct in this. We don't know all that much, and what we do think we understand is wrong. How many times Nibley said this is uncountable. I have taken severe criticism (even from Kevin) for this stance. Yet the limitations of mankind are so patently obvious. I must say even the scripture assumes this and hence encourages us to pray for guidance, help, and further light and knowledge.

Don't turn you back on the Holy Ghost just because things may seem out of place or fail to meet your standards regarding how God and prophets must perform. However, with that said, it is perfectly natural for us to doubt from time to time. But try not to doubt, and don't give in to the intellectual mind. Let the Holy Ghost decide things for you as you have already reveived that witness.

And the reason to not turn our backs on the Holy Ghost is precisely because we have such serious limitations, and the HG leads us step by step and line upon line. This is Joseph Smith's teaching. And it was also Joseph Smith who, while engaging his wonderfully intellectual mind (as Kevin does from time to time), who also advocated prayer to God who shall give to all men liberally (that sounds like scripture...... hint, James, it's in the New Testament book of James)

I think Paul's points here are powerful for an LDS apologetic. We know we are limited, and we believe that God is not. So when problems crop up, we don't come to hard and fast conclusions, we pray and continue working through our salvations with fear and trembling, always willing to change our ideas as new evidence shows up.

Thank you Paul Osborne for the excellent focus on where our focus ought to be, and most of the time isn't. It's a good refresher reading here for we all.

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Paul Osborne, the independent Egyptological student of the Book of Abraham that a lot of folks don't really like has just handed Kevin Graham *THE* answer to all of Kevin's intellectual problems. After his (Kevin's)ranting, once again, against the Book of Abraham and LDS apologetics on this subject, Paul Osborne noted some very interesting things that are worth emphasizing since they are precisely what the scriptures teach.

The Church of Jesus Christ is based on faith. Our religion is all about faith. People join the Church because of the testimony they receive from the Holy Ghost and spiritual manifestations. No one need expect proof in order to substitue faith, as you know there aren't very many people who will say they have spoken with Christ face to face. We take on our belief in Christ through our faith and the feelings of the Holy Ghost.

This is an interesting take of Paul's that I differ about however.

That's right! My friend Paul Osborne said this, and it's something we LDS apologists have said, but we take it in the teeth for. Paul, so far as I can tell, is correct in this. We don't know all that much, and what we do think we understand is wrong. How many times Nibley said this is uncountable. I have taken severe criticism (even from Kevin) for this stance. Yet the limitations of mankind are so patently obvious. I must say even the scripture assumes this and hence encourages us to pray for guidance, help, and further light and knowledge.

And the reason to not turn our backs on the Holy Ghost is precisely because we have such serious limitations, and the HG leads us step by step and line upon line. This is Joseph Smith's teaching. And it was also Joseph Smith who, while engaging his wonderfully intellectual mind (as Kevin does from time to time), who also advocated prayer to God who shall give to all men liberally (that sounds like scripture...... hint, James, it's in the New Testament book of James)

I think Paul's points here are powerful for an LDS apologetic. We know we are limited, and we believe that God is not. So when problems crop up, we don't come to hard and fast conclusions, we pray and continue working through our salvations with fear and trembling, always willing to change our ideas as new evidence shows up.

Thank you Paul Osborne for the excellent focus on where our focus ought to be, and most of the time isn't. It's a good refresher reading here for we all.

nice, where is the source?

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Good point Kerry and as you said it has been pointed out here (the same point that is, of needing faith) many times before by many other apologist types both small and great so the question arises as to why you bring this up so strongly and eloquently now? Is it just a reminder or are you spotting a glimmer of hope somewhere?

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The quotes from Paul you just quoted are precisely the reason I miss him so much on these boards. He was the first person I came across that suggested that God purposefully set up his church to look suspect so we had to come and excercise faith first. I hadn't thought of that before and believe there could be some truth to it.

No personalized threads. ~ Mods

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