The Place Which Was Called Nahom

[Olavarria]

I'm not 100% certain that Joseph Smith would have to have consciously made the hallucination happen.

I had an experience on my mission that was tantamount to a religious ecstasy/hallucination, and I was 100% totally sincere in my belief that it was in fact the power of God.

Did you see angels, hear the voice of God or handle gold plates?

Did anyone you know?

Did you or they ever defend you "hallucination" in the face of threats to your property or person?

Did you or anyone else leave the church but stay firm to your "hallucinations"?

[Sethbag]

This may seem like derailing, but come on, we're on page 12 of the thread, so indulge me for a moment.

Her Amun, do you believe that Joseph Smith ever actually saw, literally, with his physical eyeballs, buried treasure as depicted by the stone in his hat?

[Dan Vogel]

So, are you suggesting that Joseph Smith attempted to hypnotize Oliver Cowdery, Martin Harris and David Whitmer, but as long as Harris was present, he couldn't hypnotize any of them? Further, are you suggesting that once Harris left them, Joseph was then able to hypnotize Cowdery and Whitmer? And finally, are you suggesting that Harris, after leaving and praying, Joseph's attempts to hypnotize him were finally successful?

T-Shirt

Why did JS have to be there in the first place? Why didn't the three just go out into the woods to fulfill the promise in the revelation themselves? And why couldn't Harris get a vision until JS joined him?

I'm not sure we have all the facts to know exactly how the vision occurred. Whitmer says they were sitting on a log talking when the vision opened. It's possible that something along the lines of the vision JS had with Rigdon in 1832 happened.

The following is from my essay in American Apocrypha:

A glimpse into Smith's ability to evoke a vision in another person is provided by Philo Dibble, who was present at Smithâ??s and Sidney Rigdon's joint vision of three heavens on 16 February 1832 in Hiram, Ohio (see D&C 76). According to Dibble, several people present in the room "saw the glory, and felt the power, but did not see the vision." Dibble recalled:

Joseph would, at intervals, say: "What do I see?" as one might say while looking out the window and beholding what all in the room could not see. Then he would relate what he had seen or what he was looking at. Then Sidney replied, "I see the same." Presently Sidney would say "what do I see?" and would repeat what he had seen or was seeing, and Joseph would reply, "I see the same." This manner of conversation was repeated at short intervals to the end of the vision. ...

-- Juvenile Instructor 27 (15 May 1892): 303-304. That Rigdon was predisposed to visions is indicated by those he received during his visit to New York in December 1830 (Ezra Booth to Ira Eddy, 6 Dec. 1831, "Mormonism--Nos. VIII--IX" [Letter IX], Ohio Star [Ravenna, OH] 2 [8 Dec. 1831]: 1).

Dibble adds that during the procedure Smith "sat firmly and calmly," while Rigdon "sat limp and pale, apparently as limber as a rag." Some might interpret Rigdon's condition as indicative of a hypnotic trance and conclude that Smith was leading the former through a series of suggestions. Moreover, as ultimate interpreter of the vision, Smith could create the impression of shared vision.

[Dan Vogel]

The implication of Vogel's position, presuming what he's presented here is indicative, is that visions, revelations, and the like, are all hallucinations, no matter how many see the same thing and report such.

My position is that there is no way to know the difference. It still comes down to a matter of faith. But why would God create the brain in such a way as to hallucinate, and then hold us responsible for not knowing the difference?

[Log]

My position is that there is no way to know the difference. It still comes down to a matter of faith. But why would God create the brain in such a way as to hallucinate, and then hold us responsible for not knowing the difference?

Have you ever hallucinated? Have you ever had a vision?

[Dan Vogel]

Have you ever hallucinated? Have you ever had a vision?

Tricky question. If I say yes, then you say:--"See, you knew the difference."

There are different kinds of hallucination. Here is another cut and paste:--

Pseudohallucination. There are two generalized categories of hallucination: true and pseudo. True hallucinations are experienced and accepted by the person as real, usually occur in psychotic states and organic mental disorders, and involve an impairment of reality testing. Pseudohallucinations, on the other hand, "are experienced by the subject who, at the time of the experience, is fully aware of the unreality of the perceptions" (Asaad 1990, 12; see also 7). As described by Ghazi Asaad, Clinical Associate Professor of Psychiatry at New York Medical College (Valhalla, New York),

Pseudohallucinations ... may occur as single experiences in the individual's life, as in the case of grief reactions, or they may occur frequently under various circumstances. Such perceptions are usually clear with full sensory details. In the initial part of the experience, the person may not be able to make a critical judgment concerning the unreality of the perception, but in a few moments, that distinction becomes clear (Asaad 1990, 12).

Because there was evidently no impairment in reality testing and a clear understanding that what they were experiencing was extraordinary, I would suggest that the Three Witnesses experienced what Asaad calls pseudohallucinations.

To answer your question--yes, in my youth I had a pseudohallucination, which could have been either a spirit or my imagination. Determining which I chose to believe is a matter of cultural context and disposition. Needless to say, my interpretation of the event (like any event) changed over time. To say that the witnesses didn't change does not negate the fact that they very well could have. Changing one's interpretation doesn't change the event, and not changing one's interpretation isn't proof that the event was a genuine religious experience.

[charity]

[quote name='Dan Vogel' date='Apr 12 2007, 05:21 AM' post='1208161365)\

,

Because there was evidently no impairment in reality testing and a clear understanding that what they were experiencing was extraordinary, I would suggest that the Three Witnesses experienced what Asaad calls pseudohallucinations.

[Log]

Tricky question. If I say yes, then you say:--"See, you knew the difference."

There are different kinds of hallucination. Here is another cut and paste:--

Pseudohallucination. There are two generalized categories of hallucination: true and pseudo. True hallucinations are experienced and accepted by the person as real, usually occur in psychotic states and organic mental disorders, and involve an impairment of reality testing. Pseudohallucinations, on the other hand, "are experienced by the subject who, at the time of the experience, is fully aware of the unreality of the perceptions" (Asaad 1990, 12; see also 7). As described by Ghazi Asaad, Clinical Associate Professor of Psychiatry at New York Medical College (Valhalla, New York),

Pseudohallucinations ... may occur as single experiences in the individual's life, as in the case of grief reactions, or they may occur frequently under various circumstances. Such perceptions are usually clear with full sensory details. In the initial part of the experience, the person may not be able to make a critical judgment concerning the unreality of the perception, but in a few moments, that distinction becomes clear (Asaad 1990, 12).

Because there was evidently no impairment in reality testing and a clear understanding that what they were experiencing was extraordinary, I would suggest that the Three Witnesses experienced what Asaad calls pseudohallucinations.

To answer your question--yes, in my youth I had a pseudohallucination, which could have been either a spirit or my imagination. Determining which I chose to believe is a matter of cultural context and disposition. Needless to say, my interpretation of the event (like any event) changed over time. To say that the witnesses didn't change does not negate the fact that they very well could have. Changing one's interpretation doesn't change the event, and not changing one's interpretation isn't proof that the event was a genuine religious experience.

I'm not sure I follow - you say it was a pseudohallucination, and yet you hedge on whether it was real - "a spirit" - or unreal - "my imagination." Which of these two it was determines whether it was a pseudohallucination, right?

I agree that ultimately we can only be sure of our own experiences, and not any others. In fact, it is an article of faith that other human-shaped objects with which I interact on a daily basis have internal experiences roughly approximating my own, since, as a general rule, I don't have direct access to their mental processes.

I wasn't really trying to be tricky. I wanted to find out if all this was an exercise in label manipulation to you, or whether you had any experiences in the realm you're speaking of.

[Olavarria]

This may seem like derailing, but come on, we're on page 12 of the thread, so indulge me for a moment.

Her Amun, do you believe that Joseph Smith ever actually saw, literally, with his physical eyeballs, buried treasure as depicted by the stone in his hat?

hmmm, I dont know.

But I do know that he actually saw, transported and hefted a golden codex that contained various materials that where between 2200-11400 years old, that he saw God the Father and Jesus Christ, spoke with them as well as the angel Moroni.

[thesometimesaint]

Dan Vogel:

As can be more than adaquetly by the smilies.

The human mind always goes to completion thus sees things that aren't there, thus hallucinates

[Jaybear]

hmmm, I dont know.

But I do know that he actually saw, transported and hefted a golden codex that contained various materials that where between 2200-11400 years old, that he saw God the Father and Jesus Christ, spoke with them as well as the angel Moroni.

He didn't ask if you knew, he asked if you "believed."

[thesometimesaint]

Jaybear:

Be careful here that you don't fall for the empiricism of personal experience.

IE. I have no personal experience with George Washington. But I know that he did in fact live.

[Log]

IE. I have no personal experience with George Washington. But I know that he did in fact live.

How do you know he did in fact live?

[Sethbag]

TSS: I asked the question of whether Her Amun believes that Joseph Smith saw the buried treasure or not because I'm wondering how open he is to the notion that Joseph may have hallucinated on anything else besides Moroni, the plates, or God and Jesus.

If Joseph just made up the bit about seeing the treasure and was lying, then that's obviously trouble. If Joseph thought he saw the treasure but was in fact hallucinating, then apparently he was prone to spiritual "visions" like this, and the likelihood of Moroni, God, Jesus, and the Golden Plates have been hallucinations rises dramatically. If Joseph really saw the buried treasure in the earth, through the peepstone in the hat, then that basically validates the occult as effective, apparently not evil and of the devil as we've been taught to believe in the LDS church, and leads to other troubling questions such as why the church has subsequently turned its back on this area of Truth and spiritual practice, not to mention the question - where are all the successful peepstone treasure seekers today? Or was this just a one-off because, as Bushman suggests, God needed to train up his future prophet?

At any rate, the whole reason the notion of hallucination and hypnotic suggestion and the like even came into this thread was my response to Her Amun, who corrected my claim that the only info we have on Lehi and Moroni came from Joseph Smith by pointing out that the Three Witnesses claim to have seen the angel as well. I forget, did they explicitly say it was Moroni, or possible some other angel? I was merely pointing out that, interestingly, Joseph Smith was present and directly involved in all three of the Witnesses' heavenly visions, and I cannot discount the possibility that what they "saw" was actually an induced hallucination or hypnotic suggestion or something like that. And I don't even believe that Joseph necessarily even had to know what he was doing and have done it on purpose to deceive. It's possible he was taken in by this too, but his, and the Witnesses', religious enthusiasm contributed to their whipping each other up into some kind of spiritual frenzy.

[thesometimesaint]

Sethbag:

The problem with using The Plates as an example of a hallucination is that there are multiple independent witnesses, not limited to just the 11 who saw, or saw and felt them. To proposed that JS somehow induced the same mass hallucination, on at least two differing occasions stretches incredulity beyond its breaking point.

The only question remaining concerning the physicality of The Plates is how JS obtained them.

[asbestosman]

Sethbag:

The problem with using The Plates as an example of a hallucination is that there are multiple independent witnesses, not limited to just the 11 who saw, or saw and felt them. To proposed that JS somehow induced the same mass hallucination, on at least two differing occasions stretches incredulity beyond its breaking point.

The only question remaining concerning the physicality of The Plates is how JS obtained them.

Yes, however wasn't it Dan Vogel who proposed the idea of tin plates? If I understand his position correctly, is he saying that Joseph Smith had tin plates, but only induced a few people to see an angel?

[ed2276]

How do you know he did in fact live?

I , for one , don't know that G. Washington lived. I don't know that you , Vogel or anyone else is really alive. All this could be a hallucination. I may be a hallucination of my self.

[DH]

Those critics would have to first assume that who ever wrote the BOM, only had access to the Palmyra lending library.

Let back up on step.

I realize that you want to portray critics as irrational and stupid. But, do you honestly think that it is a patently unreasonable assumption that someone who is taking the time to write a story about a family traveling in the Mideast, would consult a map of the mideast as part of their background research?

Of course it's not an unreasonable idea that a person writing a story about the Middle East might consult a map of the Middle East. However, if Nahom was not on the maps of the time (not yet having been discovered), JS could consult all the maps in the world and not come up with that detail. Which only makes it all the more remarkable that he did come up with that detail.

DH

[Olavarria]

There seem to be two Joseph Smiths on this board.

1) Joseph SMith, the Prophet of God. Translator of ancient records, who enjoyed the society of angels and Gods.

2) Joseph Smith, the crazy con. Hebraist,Chartographer,Hypnotist and mettalurgist.

[Paul Ray]

There seem to be two Joseph Smiths on this board.

1) Joseph SMith, the Prophet of God. Translator of ancient records, who enjoyed the society of angels and Gods.

2) Joseph Smith, the crazy con. Hebraist,Chartographer,Hypnotist and mettalurgist.

Which Joseph do you honor, Her Amun?

And btw, why are you Her Amun, instead of His?

I've always been curious about that.

[Olavarria]

Which Joseph do you honor, Her Amun?

And btw, why are you Her Amun, instead of His?

I've always been curious about that.

I respect and want to be like #1 because that is the REAL Joseph SMith.

Her Amun............

Helaman (BM), great Nephite prophet.

Her-amon (OW), "in the presence of Amon," as in the Egyptian proper name Heri-i-her-imn. 4 Semitic "l" is always written "r" in Egyptian, which has no "l." Conversely, the Egyptian "r" is often written "l" in Semitic languages.

Hugh Nibley, Lehi in the Desert

[Dan Vogel]

I'm not sure I follow - you say it was a pseudohallucination, and yet you hedge on whether it was real - "a spirit" - or unreal - "my imagination." Which of these two it was determines whether it was a pseudohallucination, right?

I agree that ultimately we can only be sure of our own experiences, and not any others. In fact, it is an article of faith that other human-shaped objects with which I interact on a daily basis have internal experiences roughly approximating my own, since, as a general rule, I don't have direct access to their mental processes.

I wasn't really trying to be tricky. I wanted to find out if all this was an exercise in label manipulation to you, or whether you had any experiences in the realm you're speaking of.

A true hallucination is when the person is unaware that they are experiencing a hallucination. A pseudohallucination is when the person knows what is being experienced is unusual or out of the ordinary. That has nothing to do with the belief that such experiences are real or imaginary.

[Dan Vogel]

i think it is pretty pitiful when people who don't have spiritual experiences, visions, prophetic dreams, visitations,etc. try to make themselves feel better by telling other people they don't.

Obviously, I have my own opinion about such things, but I didn't say that spiritual aren't real, only that they might not be. It's a matter of interpretation. Skeptics can have "spiritual" experiences too; they just interpret them differently.

[Dan Vogel]

Yes, however wasn't it Dan Vogel who proposed the idea of tin plates? If I understand his position correctly, is he saying that Joseph Smith had tin plates, but only induced a few people to see an angel?

The three witnesses saw the plates in a vision with the angel. I have argued that the eight witnesses handled the plates in a cloth covering, and never saw them uncovered. Instead, they saw them by spiritual sight through the cloth.

[Log]

I have argued that the eight witnesses handled the plates in a cloth covering, and never saw them uncovered. Instead, they saw them by spiritual sight through the cloth.

What was your source for this claim, and where was the response?

Nevermind - found it - http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/pdf.php?fi...p;type=amJtcw==