Fac 2: 1,22,23,5,6,7 And Fig 4 Of Fac 3 Just For Fun

[Olavarria]

Fig. 1. Kolob, signifying the first creation, nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God. First in government, the last pertaining to the measurement of time. The measurement according to celestial time, which celestial time signifies one day to a cubit. One day in Kolob is equal to a thousand years according to the measurement of this earth, which is called by the Egyptians Jah-oh-eh.

The Sun as Primeval Creator God seated in the center of the hypo. He is holding the wes scepter, a symbol of power and dominion. Near his top right is the hierogliphic representation of the Nun, the primeval waters which he came from during the first creation. In other hypo's he has 4 heads, representing the first four generations of creation.

Fig 22, 23. the stars receiving light from the revolutions of Kolob

These apes are recieving the warmth of the sun's rays as it rises in the morning. Apes were associated with the god Thoth and has solar and lunar connections. Apes were also connected with the Hapy, a son of Horus and himself a baboon. Hapy also functioned as a star god and was a five pointed stellar constellation.

Fig. 5. Is called in Egyptian Enish-go-on-dosh; this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key, or, in other words, the governing power, which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars, as also Floeese or the Moon, the Earth and the Sun in their annual revolutions. This planet receives its power through the medium of Kli-flos-is-es, or Hah-ko-kau-beam, the stars represented by numbers 22 and 23, receiving light from the revolutions of Kolob.

The cow here is Hathor, wearing the two plumed sun between her horns. She is the the sky. She gives birth to the sun and puts him on her horns, placing him above. Among other things, the sun was also considered the literal eye ball of Re thus recieving the title "Eye of Re". Curiosly, the BoD also calls the Hathor Cow "Eye of Re".

Eye of Re=sun

Eye of Re=hathor cow

Fig. 6. Represents this earth in its four quarters.

The four Sons of Horus: Imsety, Hapy, Qebesenuaf and Duamutef. Among other things, these were the gods of the four cardinal points: Imsety was associated with the South, Hapy with the North, Duamutef with the East and Qebesenuaf with the West. In order to divide something in four quarters you need 4 points from which to cut from the north to the south, from the east to the west. Simple geometry to say the least.

Fig. 7. Represents God sitting upon his throne, revealing through the heavens the grand Key-words of the Priesthood; as, also, the sign of the Holy Ghost unto Abraham, in the form of a dove.

The Min, ictyphalic with upraised arm in authority was a predynastic god. In the earliest times he was a sky-god called the "Chief of Heaven". He was the "Great Male, the owner of all females.

The Bull who is unites with those of the sweet love, of beautiful face and of painted eyes,

Victorious sovereign among the Gods who inspires fear in the Ennead." The goddesses are glad, seeing his perfection. This fits well with the Mysteries of Godliness as revealed by Joseph Smith and his earliest successors.

Fig. 4. Prince of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, as written above the hand.

Can Maat be the name of a Prince? Could a Prince be equated with a female divinity? Well Ramses the 2nd was. As Pharoah, one of his throne names was Woser-Maat-Ra. During one particular rite, the Pharoah presented the gods with a little statute of Maat. This statute was also a rebus of the king's name it a held a Woser staff and wore a sun disk on its head, along with the Maat feather. It can be said that in this doll was both Maat and Woser-Maat-Ra(Ramses 2).

fig 22,23: http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...c=23100&hl=

fig 1: http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...c=23127&hl=

fig 6: http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...c=22685&hl=

fig 5: http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...c=22679&hl=

fig 7: http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...c=22055&hl=

fig 4 of fac 3: http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php...c=23098&hl=

[Ron Beron]

Fig. 4. Prince of Pharaoh, King of Egypt, as written above the hand.

Can Maat be the name of a Prince? Could a Prince be equated with a female divinity? Well Ramses the 2nd was. As Pharoah, one of his throne names was Woser-Maat-Ra. During a yearly right, the Pharoah presented the gods with a little statute of Maat. This statute was also a rebus of the king's name it a held a Woser staff and wore a sun disk on its head, along with the Maat feather. It can be said that in this doll was both Maat and Woser-Maat-Ra(Ramses 2).

I was looking at this facsimile for a long time and then looked at a exact copy I have that was part of a copy of the Book of Breathings and I was struck on the similarities between this facs. and similar Sumerian and Babylonian presentation scenes I have noticed. Do you think that the Egyptians were influenced by Sumerian religious practices?

Some (Rohl) have even suggested that the Egyptians are even Sumerian in ethnic makeup.

[Olavarria]

I was looking at this facsimile for a long time and then looked at a exact copy I have that was part of a copy of the Book of Breathings and I was struck on the similarities between this facs. and similar Sumerian and Babylonian presentation scenes I have noticed. Do you think that the Egyptians were influenced by Sumerian religious practices?

I dont know. It certainly is possible. Asceinsion motifs which culminate in "meeting the god" might also be attributed to an older, more common source.

Some (Rohl) have even suggested that the Egyptians are even Sumerian in ethnic makeup.

Again, Im stumped.

[Olavarria]

the one and only bump

[Olavarria]

this time I mean it. The last bump.

My assesment is incomplte, yet it was very fun to make.

[Ron Beron]

this time I mean it. The last bump.

My assesment is incomplte, yet it was very fun to make.

Too stumped to bump? What other assessment do you have to make?

[Olavarria]

Too stumped to bump? What other assessment do you have to make?

three more figures....lets see if i have the time or interest.

[Olavarria]

bump

since ck's back in town

[Chris Smith]

Her Amun,

I don't doubt that one can wring some acceptable parallels out vignettes that have a multiplicity of meanings. However, any attempt to make Joseph's explanations work, I would think, must make them all work. So maybe the Pharaoh was dressed up as Isis. What about the characters above his head? So maybe a prince could have Maat as a throne name (though I'm far from sold on that idea; pharaohs have throne names, but do princes?). How do we resolve the problem of the third figure then? Is Pharaoh's slave dressing up as Anubis? Is there any precedent for that? Right now these parallels are piecemeal at best. We need some kind of unified theoretical framework to place them in, or I think their value is limited.

-CK

[Olavarria]

However, any attempt to make Joseph's explanations work, I would think, must make them all work. .....We need some kind of unified theoretical framework to place them in, or I think their value is limited.

Oh ya, without a doubt I agree. The subtitle of my OP was "an incomplete asse" was actually intended to be "an incomplete assesment". My study into these matters are in no way complete or final, consider them ordeveors. Bon Appetite.

[Olavarria]

So maybe the Pharaoh was dressed up as Isis. What about the characters above his head?

Perhaps this Pharoah had Isis as a componant of his throne name. Its possible.

So maybe a prince could have Maat as a throne name (though I'm far from sold on that idea; pharaohs have throne names, but do princes?).

Its possible that he had a Maat componant to his name. I showed that in one case Pharoah is Maat, Maat is Phaorah. Maat as Prince of Pharoah is not that great of a leap.

How do we resolve the problem of the third figure then? Is Pharaoh's slave dressing up as Anubis?

Semetic redaction. Your old thread was about the names above the hands and how those could identify male royalty.

Right now these parallels are piecemeal at best. We need some kind of unified theoretical framework to place them in, or I think their value is limited.

Agreed, lets see if I have the time or interest to do more.

[Chris Smith]

the problem of figures above the hands applies to the Osiris-Hor figure as well as the other two.

[Noggin]

Well, I am back from my suspension. So what can I get myself into now.

Fig. 5. Is called in Egyptian Enish-go-on-dosh; this is one of the governing planets also, and is said by the Egyptians to be the Sun, and to borrow its light from Kolob through the medium of Kae-e-vanrash, which is the grand Key, or, in other words, the governing power, which governs fifteen other fixed planets or stars, as also Floeese or the Moon, the Earth and the Sun in their annual revolutions. This planet receives its power through the medium of Kli-flos-is-es, or Hah-ko-kau-beam, the stars represented by numbers 22 and 23, receiving light from the revolutions of Kolob.

The cow here is Hathor, wearing the two plumed sun between her horns. She is the the sky. She gives birth to the sun and puts him on her horns, placing him above. Among other things, the sun was also considered the literal eye ball of Re thus recieving the title "Eye of Re". Curiosly, the BoD also calls the Hathor Cow "Eye of Re".

Eye of Re=sun

Eye of Re=hathor cow

I appreciate what you are trying to do. I believe you are attempting to say that Joseph Smith's translating powers were god given in that he could get glimmers of understanding into Egyptian heiroglyphs... something no one else could do at that pre-rosetta stone era. I became interested in figure 5 because it is obviously, as you point out, a cow and so I wanted to see what Joseph Smith would have intuited about the cow. I read these two articles on it to verify what you claim about fig 5, namely:

http://www.thekeep.org/~kunoichi/kunoichi/...eam/hathor.html

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathor

Joseph Smith could see it was a cow or a deer or whatever but instead, he said that the Egyptians called it a governing planet named Enish-go-on-dosh. The egyptians never did call the cow Enish-go-on-dosh. They called the cow Hathor. And from here it breaks down terribly in your connection to Smith's ability to glean through the Egyptian for some far out half hidden meaning connected to Kolob etc.

I did not find where the Egyptians referred to Hathor as the sky, but I did find that she was connected to the milky way. Close enough and I guess that is a hit of sorts for Smith's ref to the 15 stars. It is such a stretch to call this any sort of hit though.

You obviously put much time into all of these posts you do on the book of abraham these past months. You appear intelligent. I wonder if this is your achilles heel... you know, that one area of your faith that deep down so totally bothers you that you must spend this amount of time convincing yourself with the tiniest would-be maybe could be connections. Meanwhile, the rest of the professionally world reknowned egyptologists who do not have an LDS testimony to justify, see no reason to run to a Mormon baptismal font and join the church.

I sincerely meant it when I tried to compliment your efforts at the beginning of my post. But it is a little sad to me as well.

Good luck with it.

Noggin

[Olavarria]

the problem of figures above the hands applies to the Osiris-Hor figure as well as the other two.

Not nessecarily. Remember in the case of the king and prince Joseph says "whose name is given in the characters above his head" and "as written above the hand". I believe that I have shown how plausable/possible that is.

As for Shulem, Joseph says, "as represented by the characters above his hand". Iread very slowly, and I believe the Prophet wasnt mincing words here. Shulem is not "given" or "written above the hand", rather it is "represented" by what ever is in the cartouche.

According to Dictionary.com REPRESENT means:

rep

[Chris Smith]

Her Amun,

In no way can those characters actually be said to represent Shulem's name. In the case of an image, I suppose it could represent different things to different people. I get something different out of the Mona Lisa than you do. But in the case of the word "apple," we both look at it and think of roughly the same thing. You wouldn't look at the name "apple" and think "Shulem, the king's servant." It is much less open to interpretation than a picture, because it is part of a language system with strict rules, and outside that system it has no meaning.

-CK

[Luigi]

Her Amun,

Can you please let us know who provided the interpretation of the characters according to egyptology-Thanks.

[Olavarria]

Joseph Smith could see it was a cow or a deer or whatever but instead, he said that the Egyptians called it a governing planet named Enish-go-on-dosh. The egyptians never did call the cow Enish-go-on-dosh.

2 observations

1) we dont have the entire BoA. So whatever Enishgoondosh is, we'll never know.

2)How do we know that the egyptians never called it Enish go on dosh? Have we found every papyrus ever written? Seriosly though, just because Enishgoondosh is not an a currently attested egyptian name, that does not mean that it was never uttered by egyptian lips.

Lets not forget chapter 162 of the BoD.

"I am the Ihet-cow; your name is in my mouth and I shall utter it; Penhaqahagaher is your name, Iuriuiaqrsainqrbaty is your name, tail of the lion is your name, Kharsati is your name: Iadore your name. .........Atum is his name, Barkatitjawa is his name."(pg 125) from

http://www.amazon.com/Egyptian-Book-Dead-G...h/dp/0811807673

What to the bold words mean? Egyptologists dont know; they are left untranslated.

I believe Enishgoondosh,Kae e vanrash and other names Ritner calls mock egyptian fall into a class of undeciferable names found in the BoD. Many scholars believe the bold names in the BoD are modified loan words from Nubian. I believe the same is true for th exotic vocab in BoA. We know that at least Kolob and kokobeam are loan words from semetic lanuages(whether you believe they were made by Joseph himself who was studying hebrew at the time, or by Father Abraham). Just because they dont mean anything to an egyptologist, that does not mean they didnt believe anything to an egyptian.

They called the cow Hathor. And from here it breaks down terribly in your connection to Smith's ability to glean through the Egyptian for some far out half hidden meaning connected to Kolob etc.

And what was Hathor in bovine form? The Eye of Re. What was the Sun? The Eye of Re. Lets not forget, what does the cow have on her head? The Sun!!

I did not find where the Egyptians referred to Hathor as the sky, but I did find that she was connected to the milky way. Close enough and I guess that is a hit of sorts for Smith's ref to the 15 stars. It is such a stretch to call this any sort of hit though.

The cow is the Milky way, the thing between her horns in the sun.

The BoD says that they represent the sun on the morning of it's birth. Im at school right now, so I cant rip out my BoD.

Ill try to quote it tommorow morning.

What more do you want? Ah yes, a papyri desbribing it by the name of Enisggoondosh. OK, fair enough. But the absense of evidence is not the evidence of absense.

You obviously put much time into all of these posts you do on the book of abraham these past months. You appear intelligent.

Apearances can be decieving.

I wonder if this is your achilles heel... you know, that one area of your faith that deep down so totally bothers you that you must spend this amount of time convincing yourself with the tiniest would-be maybe could be connections.

I am too intelligent for my own good? My achilles heel is that I actually spend time studying these things beyond pro- and anti-? My achilles heel is that I actually study what these figures mean independant of any mention of Jospeh Smith?

Ah yes, lets not argue Her Amun's arguments lets argue Her Amun's motives. Beutiful Lets not forget that I am a spoiled rich kid, who is in grad school, without a job and thus I have tons of spare time.

Lets not forget, that an identification of the ichtyphallic Min with Heavenly Father reinforces the JoD views on Diety, is not exactly some thing ANYONE wants to listen too over the dinner table or a night out. Hence why I love MAAD.

Hey while we're at it lets apply the same logic to Sethbag and California Kid. How would it sound if I said:

"Hey CK/Sethbag, I wonder if this is your achilles heel... you know, that one area of your apostasy/stuburness that deep down so totally bothers you that you must spend this amount of time convincing yourself with the tiniest would-be maybe could be lack of connections that Joseph was not a Prophet."

Nope, that would be wrong. We know that only non-mormons have the power to think rationally and that it is the LDS amatuer internet apologist who is running scared and seeking to "convince himself".

Show me how I am wrong Noggin. Facts, not rhetoric is what wins over an intelligent mind. The Hathor cow with the sun between her horns is the Eye of Re.

Eye of Re=Hathor cow

Eye of Re=Sun

She is also the milky way.

Get used to it.

( is this a haiku?)

Meanwhile, the rest of the professionally world reknowned egyptologists who do not have an LDS testimony to justify, see no reason to run to a Mormon baptismal font and join the church.

Did I ever say they did? Read my actual threads Noggin.

Then again, I dont allow scholars (mormon,catholic,jewish,atheist,buddhist or whatever) to do thinking for me. Im sorry if that is what you are learning/have learned at the university. Scholars save us time. I reserve the right to think for myself.

I sincerely meant it when I tried to compliment your efforts at the beginning of my post. But it is a little sad to me as well.

The find two things sad in your post:

1) you think a freethinker studying things out for himself is pathetic.

2) You allow the most important descisions in your life be dictated by the thinking others.

And people fault mormons for "blindly" following the Bretheren?

Good luck with it.

No, good luck to you.

Noggin

Try using your noggin and actually read all of my Fac 2 threads and posting rebuttals to what I actually say ala CK. Then explain to me why anti videos like The Lost Book of Abraham, a remarkable mormon claim lack any treatment on the subject of Fac 2.

Her Amun,

Can you please let us know who provided the interpretation of the characters according to egyptology-Thanks.

Its in one of Ck's old threads, look it up. Isi mother of the gods, Maat, Osiris Hor. BTY Im not disputing this.

[Olavarria]

Her Amun,

In no way can those characters actually be said to represent Shulem's name. In the case of an image, I suppose it could represent different things to different people. I get something different out of the Mona Lisa than you do. But in the case of the word "apple," we both look at it and think of roughly the same thing. You wouldn't look at the name "apple" and think "Shulem, the king's servant." It is much less open to interpretation than a picture, because it is part of a language system with strict rules, and outside that system it has no meaning.

-CK

The 'apple", "Shluem" thing is a false analogy and ju know it mang.

What we have is Osiris-Hor and Shulem.

If the BoA was attached to the Sensen papyri, and the complete Boa made mention of Shulem, then the characters pelling out Osiris-Hor could very well stand in the place of , be a subsitute for,to act for or in behalf of or be the equivalent of; correspond to Osiris-Shulem.

Shulem is a semetic name and thus the guy is probably some kind of servant. Could it be that he had an egyptian anme and a semtic name in the same way that I have a chinese name and a spanish one? If you were to see me in a chinese magazine with the name WANG FEILONG, yet my chinese teacher from college said "Tony, the best student in the world, as indicated by the characters above his hand". You would probably say " that s crazy, it says flying dragon wang." But that is only because you dont knwo the whole story. When it comes to the BoA, niether you or I know the complete story. Why? Because we dont have all of the JSP and we dont have all of the BoA.

[Chris Smith]

The 'apple", "Shluem" thing is a false analogy and ju know it mang.

What we have is Osiris-Hor and Shulem.

If the BoA was attached to the Sensen papyri, and the complete Boa made mention of Shulem, then the Osiris-Hor could very well stand in the place of , be a subsitute for,to act for or in behalf of or be the equivalent of; correspond to Osiris-Shulem.

You're evanding the problem of the characters, though.

[Olavarria]

You're evanding the problem of the characters, though.

No im not. Jospeh did not say "as written" or "as given" he said that the name was "represented". Those are 3 very different things.

Are you avoiding the prophet's word choice for describing his choise of names?

[Chris Smith]

As I said above,

In no way can those characters actually be said to represent Shulem's name. In the case of an image, I suppose it could represent different things to different people. I get something different out of the Mona Lisa than you do. But in the case of the word "Osiris-Hor," it has a definite meaning. You wouldn't look at the name "Osiris-Hor" and think "Shulem, the king's servant." It is much less open to interpretation than a picture, because it is part of a phonetic language system with strict rules, and outside that system it has no meaning.

[Olavarria]

But in the case of the word "Osiris-Hor," it has a definite meaning. You wouldn't look at the name "Osiris-Hor" and think "Shulem, the king's servant."

Thats exactly the point, you and I wouldnt but the ancient owners of the BoA might have.

1)The ancient man Shulem might also have had an egyptian name, such as Osiris or Horus. Much in the same way alot of american jews have a hebrew name and an english name, most ABC(american born chinese) have an english name and english name and a chinese name.

2)Joseph didnt say that the name was given or written in the characters above the hand. He says the name is represented. Representation is not the same as equation. I might represent my deceased g.father in the temple, everyone knows Im not him etc.

It is much less open to interpretation than a picture, because it is part of a phonetic language system with strict rules, and outside that system it has no meaning.

duh. But the Prophet was talking about what was written or given in the characters but what they represeted(stood in the place of, corresponded to).

Do we agree that the words:

written

given

represent

all mean different things?

[Chris Smith]

Do we agree that the words:

written

given

represent

all mean different things?

No. In this context, they clearly all mean the same thing. That's why they are used in parallel to each other.

[Olavarria]

No. In this context, they clearly all mean the same thing. That's why they are used in parallel to each other.

But they dont mean the same things. If that were the case then he should have wrote: as written...,as written..., as written...

I believe clarity is more important than agreement.

I say the Pharoah's name is written in the cartouche: Isis.

I say the Princes name is given in the cartouche: Maat.

I say Shulem's name is not written, is not given in the cartouche, but is represented by the name Osiris-Hor.

In other words, your old post "figuers by the numbers right back at ya", is not evidence of a faulty translation. For no translation of the heiratic is even attempted, not in the case of the Isis, the Maat or the deceased Osiris Hor.

[Chris Smith]

your old post "figuers by the numbers right back at ya", is not evidence of a faulty translation.

Her Amun,

Look very closely at the translations of the labels:

Label for Isis (Fig. 2 of Facsimile 3)

(VIII/4)