ed2276 Posted March 18, 2007 Posted March 18, 2007 You make much more of my question than there is. All I am asking/pondering is IF it could be the case that when all these neighboring nations developed all their religious practices and "myths" that they were telling real stories. That at least a majority of what was believed (there were so-and-so gods, etc) could actually have been true.One doesn't have to deny this possibility to accept the Bible or the BoM. One need only remember that this makes no difference. Oh yeah , I'm sure the Israelites believed that the gods of the other nations were real. The Israelites believed that their real God Jehovah had given them the land they possessed and also that other nations held their lands as an inheritance from their real gods. There is the instance in the OT in the book of Judges where the Israelites are taking over lands from other people and the Amorites come against them. The Israelites say to the Amorites , "We are just taking the lands that our God is giving us , we have nothing to do with you guys. Keep the lands that your god , Chemosh , has given you as a possession." If the Israelites believed that Chemosh had the power to bestow lands on other people then they must have believed that Chemosh was real.
Ron Beron Posted March 18, 2007 Posted March 18, 2007 You make much more of my question than there is. All I am asking/pondering is IF it could be the case that when all these neighboring nations developed all their religious practices and "myths" that they were telling real stories. That at least a majority of what was believed (there were so-and-so gods, etc) could actually have been true.One doesn't have to deny this possibility to accept the Bible or the BoM. One need only remember that this makes no difference.Did they believe they were "real" as in tangible, living, entities? Probably not, although they probably represented something of an abstract to them. Showing the god of waters, Enki, as a half-fish, half-man creature was probably something of an artistic abstract, but I am sure they believe in these deities as real entities minus the supernatural additives.
Ron Beron Posted March 18, 2007 Posted March 18, 2007 >>How would you interpret this passage?That Abraham is one of the spirits who was designated to be a "ruler" suggests that this referred to the role he would play in world history during his mortal life, not to his having been appointed as god over a particular nation or region.I am beginning to wonder about Abraham and his role in Semitic society. Could he possibly have been seen as a deity in the ancient world in much the same way as the Pharaoh was also seen as a god as well as a man.
David Bokovoy Posted March 19, 2007 Author Posted March 19, 2007 According to this proposal, the polar expression â??heaven and earthâ? may function in the Bible as a metonymy of the subject in which the place denotes the things located within it. The Hebrew Bible contains a variety of textual support for this specific type of literary convention."And when the money gave out in the land of Egypt and in the land of Canaan, all Egypt (i.e., the Egyptians) came to Joseph and said, â??Give us bread, lest we die before your very eyes; for the money is gone!â??" (Gen. 47:15)"When Sheba [i.e. the Sabeans] attacked them and carried them off, and put the boys to the sword; I alone have escaped to tell you" (Job 1:15)"Let all the earth [i.e., all the inhabitants of the world] fear the LORD; let all the inhabitants of the world dread Him" (Psalm 33:8 ) "And the whole earth [i.e, all the people living on the earth] was of one language, and of one speech" (2 Chro. 32:20)"And for this cause Hezekiah the king, and the prophet Isaiah the son of Amoz, prayed and cried to heaven [i.e., God who dwells within heaven]" (2 Chron. 22:20)These types of literary constructions whereby metonymy of the subject allows a location to represent the things located within it, support the possibility that the phrase â??heaven and earthâ? may appear in the Bible as a representation for all of the gods of assembly, the members of which constitute the host of heaven and of earth.
Ron Beron Posted March 20, 2007 Posted March 20, 2007 These types of literary constructions whereby metonymy of the subject allows a location to represent the things located within it, support the possibility that the phrase â??heaven and earthâ? may appear in the Bible as a representation for all of the gods of assembly, the members of which constitute the host of heaven and of earth.How about this one, David,...O Lord, the heavens praise your amazing deeds, as well as your faithfulness in the angelic assembly. (Psalms 89:10
structurecop Posted March 20, 2007 Posted March 20, 2007 How about this one, David,...What translation is that?
David Bokovoy Posted March 20, 2007 Author Posted March 20, 2007 Hello Ace,How about this one, David,...Excellent! Yours is a much better example than my "heaven" verse. "The heavens" parallels "the angelic assembly" as synonymous expressions.The KJV for Psalm 89:5 reads, "And the heavens shall praise thy wonders, O LORD: thy faithfulness also in the congregation of the saints."The phrase, "congregation of the Saints" is a reference to the divine council. The term qahal, i.e. â??assemblyâ? is a cognate for the Hebrew word â??edah or â??assemblyâ?? that appears in Psalm 82:1: â??God has taken his place in the divine council ['edah]; in the midst of the gods he holds judgmentâ? (Psalm 82:1; NRSV).Jacob Milgrom has shown that â??edah is the preferenced term for the Priestly writings in the Old Testament, whereas many (perhaps) later sources simply substitute the cognate term qahal; see â??Priestly Terminology and the Political Structure of Pre-Monarchic Israel,â? in Studies in Cultic Theology and Terminology (Leiden: Brill, 1983): 1-12."As I explained on another thread, the term â??saints" or holy ones" refers to the gods of the council in Near Eastern texts, including the Bible:" â??Saintsâ?? or â??holy onesâ?? translates the Hebrew qedoshim: the masculine plural of the adjective qadosh â??holy.â??â?¦ qedoshim [saints or holy ones] refers to the gods as a collectivity that is widely attested throughout the ancient Near East under other names (Sons of the gods, council, etc.); S.B. Parker, â??Saints,â? Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible; Karel van der Toorn, et al. (Leiden: Brill, 1999): 718.
Ron Beron Posted March 21, 2007 Posted March 21, 2007 What translation is that?Hey...I found it at this nifty little website... http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Psa&chapter=89#v10
structurecop Posted March 21, 2007 Posted March 21, 2007 Hey...I found it at this nifty little website... http://net.bible.org/bible.php?book=Psa&chapter=89#v10Interesting... thanks!
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