Nehem, The Return

[Olavarria]

Much better!

Maybe he's asking this because of my recent tizzy about the hidden and nonsensical assumption of the other question ( "How could Joseph have known?" which has the assumption that Joseph did know.)

I think "What does it all mean?" is the right question.

Gracias Dude. I personally believe that Joseph didnt know, but Nephi(Nfy) did.

[The Dude]

Gracias Dude. I personally believe that Joseph didnt know, but Nephi(Nfy) did.

Exactly! I don't think Joseph knew either. It's a fact that in each and every case where a defender asks "How did Joseph know?", neither the defender nor the critic actually believes that Joseph did know. It's a nonsensical question.

This is real progress.

[Olavarria]

Exactly! I don't think Joseph knew either. It's a fact that in each and every case where a defender asks "How did Joseph know?", neither the defender nor the critic actually believes that Joseph did know. It's a nonsensical question.

This is real progress.

"....improvement and progression are one eternal round"-If you could high to Kolob Eliza R. Snow

[Zakuska]

I said that the calcium deposits were not made by that trickle, and must have been made by a water current which existed a long time ago. Please show me where 'A papered Geologist who has been to the sight' disagrees with me.

Yes, 2600 years to be exact.

You also failed to take into account that over the past 10 years eye witnesses have seen the flow decrees by 50% becuase of pumping in the upper valley. If the flow has decrees bt 50% over the past 10 years to where it is now. What was the flow like 2600 years ago? perhaps 30 feet wide, 1 foot deep.?

Sounds like a river to me.

[Fortigurn]

Yes, 2600 years to be exact.

You haven't shown me where your 'papered Geologist' disagrees with me yet.

You also failed to take into account that over the past 10 years eye witnesses have seen the flow decrees by 50% becuase of pumping in the upper valley. If the flow has decrees bt 50% over the past 10 years to where it is now. What was the flow like 2600 years ago? perhaps 30 feet wide, 1 foot deep.?

I didn't fail to take that into account. But I'm afraid you could double that trickle and you wouldn't get anywhere near a stream 30 feet wide and 1 foot deep. It doesn't even look half a foot deep at present, and it's certainly not 15 feet wide.

Sounds like a river to me.

One foot deep is not a river. I refer you to the definition of 'river' in the 19th century Webster's dictionary which you were very fond of a moment ago, but from which you have since distanced yourself.

[Zakuska]

You haven't shown me where your 'papered Geologist' disagrees with me yet.

Its in the article you said you had read. (or not)

I didn't fail to take that into account. But I'm afraid you could double that trickle and you wouldn't get anywhere near a stream 30 feet wide and 1 foot deep. It doesn't even look half a foot deep at present, and it's certainly not 15 feet wide.

Do we have a mathematician in the house? You take the "trickle" double it ever 10 years all the way back to 600bc. Where going to end up with niagra falls here.

One foot deep is not a river. I refer you to the definition of 'river' in the 19th century Webster's dictionary which you were very fond of a moment ago, but from which you have since distanced yourself.

Thats news to the fine folks of the state of Virginia. The "Maury River" is 40 miles long and less than 3 feet deep with ocasional deep spots.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maury_River

The mighty Mississippi starts out less than 3 feet deep.

http://www.nps.gov/archive/miss/features/factoids/

The calcium deposite of our river (the river Laman) are 20 to 30 feet wide and a foot deep.

[Fortigurn]

Its in the article you said you had read. (or not)

Where specifically? You haven't shown me anything yet.

Do we have a mathematician in the house? You take the "trickle" double it ever 10 years all the way back to 600bc.

Why would I do that?

Thats news to the fine folks of the state of Virginia. The "Maury River" is 40 miles long and less than 3 feet deep with ocasional deep spots.

But it is not 1 foot deep all the way, and only 15 feet wide. Nor is it 3 feet deep all the way. It also happens to be 40 miles long.

The mighty Mississippi starts out less than 3 feet deep.

But doesn't stay that way.

The calcium deposite of our river (the river Laman) are 20 to 30 feet wide and a foot deep.

What evidence is there that they were placed there by what is now a mere trickle? Have these calcium deposits been dated?

[Zakuska]

Once again... the section that even you quoted...

The River Runs Continuously

The question we posed while standing in the canyon of granite was: Does this desert river flow â??continuallyâ? as 1 Nephi 2:9 says? Does it flow night and day, 365 days a year?[xii] I could answer affirmatively only after our third excursion to the valley in November 1996. It had just rained for six straight days before our arrival â?? a freak storm, the heaviest in years. But this storm provided a reverse key of sorts.

On our first and second visits we witnessed the river during and just after the winter rainy season. But in November 1996, after a seven-month dry spell, we were finally able to ascertain that the stream does flow constantly. The key came not from the flow at the moment we were there, which could have come from the recent rains, but from the flora in and around the river. We had earlier discovered the riverâ??s source to be a spring some 600 feet down the canyon of granite from the upper valley. On our prior two visits, the grass, weeds and herbs surrounding the springhead had been a lush green. On our third visit, they were still green even after seven months of no rain. This vegetation could not have survived those seven months unless the spring were feeding the river â??continually.â?

I have now visited the valley in the months of April, May, November, December and most recently, January. Colleagues have visited in July and August. We have observed that the volume of water in the river seems rather constant throughout the year (even though from 1995 to 1999 the volume seems to be decreased perhaps 50 percent due to the continued effects of pumping the water in the upper valley). We have also observed throughout the year that vegetation flourishes in the canyon where the river runs, and moss and algae line the banks of the stream.

The spring that feeds the river comes from an underground reservoir system. Dr. Wes Garner,[xiii] our consulting geologist, painted the following picture of the system: When the occasional rains fall in the long wadi to the north, they are trapped in the sands. This watershed of sand runs southward for 20 miles until its downward course to the sea is blocked by the granite underpinnings of the towering cliffs to the west. (Richard Wellington, my writing and exploring companion, has estimated the size of the watershed to be approximately 105 square miles). This subterranean rock runs deep beneath the surface forming a dam. The subsurface waters are thus trapped at the upper end of the canyon in an underground reservoir. The canyon and its stream run westward from the area of this underground reservoir for 3

[Fortigurn]

Did you notice what the Geologist said? The water reaches the Gulf! Underground but it does reach the gulf, otherwise we'd have an above ground lake gravity and all.

He actually says ambiguously that the cannyon and the water reaches the gulf, but does not say that it empties into the gulf. How close does it really get? Well, let's keep reading the part you quoted:

At the point where the river comes to a level grade in the canyon floor, it runs just underground, leaving the soil moist. But soon the grade increases in its descent, and the river reappears. It is last seen as it reaches a gravel bed in the lower canyon about 3/8 mile from the gulf where it feeds a well used by the coast guard post a short distance away.

This little trickle you want to call a river ends 'about 3/8 mile from the gulf', in a local well.

Continuing...

Yes, there was once a large river there, large enough to carve out the canyon. When was this? In Lehi's day? No, thousands of years before.

How exactly do you date calcium?

I'm asking you to find the date when the calcium was deposited. That may or may not involve dating the calcium itself. When you've done this, get back to me. Note that Mr Potter's website helpfully indicates that there hasn't been a substantial body of running water in this area (or indeed, in Arabia), for thousands of years, well before Lehi. The best he can do is suggest that the trickle we now see was slightly larger in Lehi's day, and reached the sea. Not even Mr Potter has suggested it carved out the canyon.

[Zakuska]

Last seen disappearing into a gravel bed that extends down the canyon all the way to the sea. What pushed all that gravel down there? Water perhaps?

How far up the canyon does the see water go in the gravel?

[Hammer]

Where specifically? You haven't shown me anything yet.

Why would I do that?

But it is not 1 foot deep all the way, and only 15 feet wide. Nor is it 3 feet deep all the way. It also happens to be 40 miles long.

But doesn't stay that way.

What evidence is there that they were placed there by what is now a mere trickle? Have these calcium deposits been dated?

Could you give a reference on what exactly what the dimensions would have to be to be considered a river? Depth, width, color, speed, ripple width Etc?

You are flailling my friend. Give it up. There was a river there.

[Fortigurn]

Could you give a reference on what exactly what the dimensions would have to be to be considered a river? Depth, width, color, speed, ripple width Etc?

I already did. I quoted the 19th century Webster's dictionary entry, which I was told is the authoritative source for understanding English word meanings in the Book of Mormon.

You are flailling my friend. Give it up. There was a river there.

There was a river there over 6,000 years ago. No one has shown that there was a river there in Lehi's day.

Last seen disappearing into a gravel bed that extends down the canyon all the way to the sea.

No, last seen trapped in a well 3/8 of a mile from the sea, and 400 feet above the sea.

What pushed all that gravel down there? Water perhaps?

Possibly, but that was at least 6,000 years ago according to the information in Mr Potter's article.

How far up the canyon does the see water go in the gravel?

It doesn't go up, it goes down. To a well 3/8 of a mile away from the coast.

[Olavarria]

- You want an inscription naming a person of the tribe of NHM in a plausible location for the BoM Nahom to mean that a place called Nahom existed - notwithstanding that, despite having the same consonants, NHM may not refer to Nahom at all.

If Nehem and Nahom are not the same then Musa/Moshe, Isa/Yeshua, Abraham/Ibrahim, Yosef/Yusuf arn't either. The demand for identical vowels is unreasonable when it comes to semetic languages, and realizing that "Nahom" would represent a hebraic transliteration of the south arabic. The fact that "Bi'athar son of Sawdum, son of Naw'um, the Nihmite", is found on the altars shows that 1)the Nehem tribe existed in 600bce 2)that the Nehem tribe occupied roughly the same place in 600bc that it does today, a day or two's journey from Marib.

- You see the name Nahom as being significant because its Hebrew root has to do with consolotation and mourning - notwithstanding that NHM in south Arabia at the appropriate time would not likely have carried the same meaning.

I never have. NHM in south arabic refers to the cutting of stone, not mourning. NHM is important because it is the right name, at the right place and at the right time.

- That meaning makes the existence of a nearby burial ground all the more significant to you - notwithstanding that burial grounds are common features of populated areas - and even though it is unlikely that the locals would have named the place after the Hebrew NHM.

Who said that the Yemeni NHM is hebraic? Nephi makes it clear that the name existed before hand.

1 Nephi 16:34 "And it came to pass that Ishmael died, and was buried in the place which was called Nahom." Note the passive tense, "was called".

1 Ne. 17:6

6 And it came to pass that we did pitch our tents by the seashore; and notwithstanding we had suffered many afflictions and much difficulty, yea, even so much that we cannot write them all, we were exceedingly rejoiced when we came to the seashore; and we called the place Bountiful, because of its much fruit.

1 Ne. 2: 8-9

8 And it came to pass that he called the name of the river, Laman, and it emptied into the Red Sea; and the valley was in the borders near the mouth thereof.

Kent Brown and others have asserted that the Lehites associated the place name NHM with an appropriate word from their own language. Do you disagree?

Its possible, kinda like aplay on words.

While I find NHM to be one of the most fascinating finds in BoM archaeology, I think it's unwise to assert that plausibilities are facts simply because it supports one's view. That is what you seem to be doing.

It seems to me that all of the rebuttles against the identification of Lehi's trail have been based on the etymology of Nahom/Nehem. Is this a delibrate attempt at a straw man? What about these other relevant, yet ignored, facts:

1) The libraries that Joseph Smith could have visited during his New England years are :Dartmouth College in Hanover , New Hampshire which was close to where the Smiths lived when Joseph was between the ages of 5-7 years old, and John H. Pratt's Manchester lending library, near Palmyra where Joseph spent his teenage years from 1816 on up.

2) Contemporary maps that deal with the Nehem tribal area do not appear in those libraries during the times that Joseph lived near their vicinities.

3) It took 10,000 Roman soldiers 6 months to venture down the west side of Arabia, from Luece Come(probably modern Aynunah) to the city of Marisaba(perhaps ancient Marib). It took roughly the same time for Lehi's people to travel from "the valley of Lemuel'(Wadi Tayyib al ism) to Nahom(the Nehem tribal area).

We know this because shortly after Ishmael's buriel the birth of the first children are mentioned, marrieges occuring in the Valley of Lemuel. The roman army lost soldiers due to unhealthy water and food; the Lehites lost Ishmael and complaned of starving in the wilderness.

4) Nahom.......Nehem, comes from the south arabic Nahama, to cut stone. The Nehem tribal area existed during the time of Lehi, were it exists today as revealed by 3 Marib temple alter inscriptions. In other owrds, NHM was the right name, in the right place, at the right time.

5) After the Lehites stay at Nahom, "they did travel nearly eastward from that time forth". Such a path from Nehem will lead you to the Dofar Region of Oman. Satelite imagery from this region shows that it is a little sliver of green on the east coast of the Arabian peninsula. The region contains:lush, green vegetation, fruit, honey, timbers and ever so small ore deposits.

6) The Dhofar region also has an ancient ship building tradition, dating to as far back as 500BCE.

[Zakuska]

There was a river there over 6,000 years ago. No one has shown that there was a river there in Lehi's day.

Aaaa... Lehi is the eye witness.

No, last seen trapped in a well 3/8 of a mile from the sea, and 400 feet above the sea.

Yet another misread of the facts...

1) Potter says nothing about the the well or the coastguard station being 400' above the sea. THe coast guard station is on the beach. IIRC. Infact the geologist says the gravel bed is at sea level or just a few feet above it, and the water flows through this gravel to the sea.

Possibly, but that was at least 6,000 years ago according to the information in Mr Potter's article.

CFR, can you prove conclusivley that not a single rock has been deposited in that gravel bed for over 6000 years. Excuse me if I seem a little synical.

It doesn't go up, it goes down. To a well 3/8 of a mile away from the coast.

Sea water goes down the gravel bed to the sea? how exactly is that miracle pulled off?

The canyon floor starts at sea level and gradually rises to 200 to 400 feet in the upper Canyon near Wadi Tayyib al ism and the Ancient camp site dating to Lehis time.