Narrow Neck Of Land

[Cumorah3]

cumorah 3, you said this was a paraphrase of Dr. Ainsworth...

As Brant said, there is probably nothing for anyone to gain by continuing this. It is just a minor aftershock from unresolved things that evolved several weeks ago. It is out of context in this current thread.

Dr. Ainsworth chooses to spend his time in pursuits that he considers more useful than arguing on message boards.

I was not allowed by the former moderating team to quote anything Dr. Ainsworth emailed to me, thus I have to resort to paraphrasing his remarks or not mentioning them at all.

It won't be long before the Finding Cumorah project takes another step. If I survive the snakes, I'll probably have a few things to report about that on Mormon Sites, and possibly also on this message board.

Thanks for your comments Charity Creator of Quilts.

[Cold Steel]

Some of John Warr's points on the narrow neck of land, I think, need addressing because I believe he makes several good points:

In conjunction with distance, I also need to discuss the distance across the narrow neck, which was defined as a days journey (or a day and a half journey in a second reference). In view of the above section, the 15-18 mile width of the Isthmus of Rivas is within reason. Also if it is compared with historical travel, such as the Mormon Pioneers, it is very comparable as they averaged about 15 miles a day. In addition, it seems as if the "narrowness" is in its favor. Where in all the literature (except in Book of Mormon geography papers) can you find Tehuantepec referred to as a "narrow neck"?

Of course if you use the definition of isthmus, narrow is part of the definition. The Nephites did not have maps (at least not in our sense of the word), and did not understand vertical geography as we do (another cultural variable!). They had a horizontal view of their world. A "narrow neck" would have had to have been observable by the individual on the ground. Such is not the case with Tehuantepec. You would need a map, or an aerial view, in order to even be aware that Tehuantepec is an isthmus. On the other hand, someone climbing to the top of the coastal range on the Isthmus of Rivas could observe both bodies of water and know that it was indeed an isthmus or "narrow neck of land". In addition the incident of the plague of snakes in Jaredite history would be much more feasible with a narrow isthmus.

Again, the Isthmus of Tehuantepec is wider than the state of Florida, so it is difficult to make the case of it being a "narrow neck" of land. This and the fact that the entire Yucatan Peninsula seems missing from the land type described in the Book of Mormon make for some interesting points. Still, Dr. Ainsworth's finding what seems to be the "narrow pass" works in its favor.

[poulsenll]

Some of John Warr's points on the narrow neck of land, I think, need addressing because I believe he makes several good points:

In conjunction with distance, I also need to discuss the distance across the narrow neck, which was defined as a days journey (or a day and a half journey in a second reference). In view of the above section, the 15-18 mile width of the Isthmus of Rivas is within reason. Also if it is compared with historical travel, such as the Mormon Pioneers, it is very comparable as they averaged about 15 miles a day. In addition, it seems as if the "narrowness" is in its favor. Where in all the literature (except in Book of Mormon geography papers) can you find Tehuantepec referred to as a "narrow neck"?

Of course if you use the definition of isthmus, narrow is part of the definition. The Nephites did not have maps (at least not in our sense of the word), and did not understand vertical geography as we do (another cultural variable!). They had a horizontal view of their world. A "narrow neck" would have had to have been observable by the individual on the ground. Such is not the case with Tehuantepec. You would need a map, or an aerial view, in order to even be aware that Tehuantepec is an isthmus. On the other hand, someone climbing to the top of the coastal range on the Isthmus of Rivas could observe both bodies of water and know that it was indeed an isthmus or "narrow neck of land". In addition the incident of the plague of snakes in Jaredite history would be much more feasible with a narrow isthmus.

Again, the Isthmus of Tehuantepec is wider than the state of Florida, so it is difficult to make the case of it being a "narrow neck" of land. This and the fact that the entire Yucatan Peninsula seems missing from the land type described in the Book of Mormon make for some interesting points. Still, Dr. Ainsworth's finding what seems to be the "narrow pass" works in its favor.

Cold Steel

This point is only valid if the two journeys actually define the distance across the "narrow neck". The scripture in Helaman does not even mention the "narrow neck". It describes the border between Zarahemla and the Land Bountiful.

Hel 4:5-8

5 And in the *fifty and seventh year they did come down against the Nephites to battle, and they did commence the work of death; yea, insomuch that in the fifty and eighth year of the reign of the judges they succeeded in obtaining possession of the land of Zarahemla; yea, and also all the lands, even unto the land which was near the land Bountiful.

6 And the Nephites and the armies of Moronihah were driven even into the land of Bountiful;

7 And there they did fortify against the Lamanites, from the west sea, even unto the east; it being a dayâ??s journey for a Nephite, on the line which they had fortified and stationed their armies to defend their north country. 8 And thus those dissenters of the Nephites, with the help of a numerous army of the Lamanites, had obtained all the possession of the Nephites which was in the land southward. And all this was done in the fifty and eighth and ninth years of the reign of the judges.

The one in Alma describes a journey on the border of the Land Bountiful and the Land of Desolation. Although it mentions the "narrow neck" this is mentioned in conjunction with the statement about the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla being surrounded by water.

Alma 22:29-32

29 And also there were many Lamanites on the east by the seashore, whither the Nephites had driven them. And thus the Nephites were nearly surrounded by the Lamanites; nevertheless the Nephites had taken possession of all the northern parts of the land bordering on the wilderness, at the head of the river Sidon, from the east to the west, round about on the wilderness side; on the north, even until they came to the land which they called Bountiful.

30 And it bordered upon the land which they called Desolation, it being so far northward that it came into the land which had been peopled and been destroyed, of whose bones we have spoken, which was discovered by the people of Zarahemla, it being the place of their first landing.

31 And they came from there up into the south wilderness. Thus the land on the northward was called Desolation, and the land on the southward was called Bountiful, it being the wilderness which is filled with all manner of wild animals of every kind, a part of which had come from the land northward for food.

32 And now, it was only the distance of a day and a halfâ??s journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea; and thus the land of Nephi and the land of Zarahemla were nearly surrounded by water, there being a small bneck of land between the land northward and the land southward.

For these two journeys to be identical, the land of Bountiful would have had to have had zero width. Alma 22:29 clearly describes Zarahemla as south of Bountiful and Desolation as north of Bountiful. The use of these journeys to define distance has become so ingrained in BoM gepography studies that no one bothers to examine what is actually said in the text. Based on what is said in the text, the width of the "narrow neck" is undefined and is useless in identifying the location of the Nephite cultural center.

Warr also makes the mistake of assuming that the Precolumbians did not have a vertical view of geography. Numerous references to travel both up and down and over are found in the text. (see bolded text in the above quoted scripture for example.) To assume they had no concept of the 3 dimentional nature of geography is similar to the insistence that every body believed the earth was flat in the days of Columbus. On page 411 of Sorenson's sorce book, he quotes a number of sources which clearly show that preconquest cultures had a 3D view of geography even moreso than we do today. An arial view is not nescesary to know the dimensions of geographic features. There are numerous maps of the new world drawn long before there were airplanes or satellites. Statements like these used be Warr and others to justify their conclusions may convince those who are "Geography Challenged" but should not be taken as definitive arguments.

[Cold Steel]

It's difficult to determine what the Nephites knew, but like most anicents that had any degree of sophistication, I don't have a difficult time believing that they knew the the layout of the land (probably much further north and south than their own lands). There is undoubtedly much more than what we presently understand written on other records, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for them to be revealed any time soon.

The more I read, the more respect I have for all the ins and outs Sorenson has looked at. It's a fascinating look at that area.

[grego]

Well, wouldn'cha know it, I found something that should make Sorenson et. al. very happy:

Lung-gom-pa runners of old Tibet. There have been many records kept of these amazing running monks who appear to fly when they run. Across grassy plains, they seem to float apparently in a trance. They are said to travel nonstop for forty-eight hours or more and can cover more than 200 miles a day. Many are said to be faster than horses and at times they were used to convey messages across a country.

A day and a half = 300 miles!

)

I don't wish it were, but it looks like Dr. Ainsworth and I see eye-to-eye on a certain topic, which debating on this board has only shown over and over to me...

[Cold Steel]

Okay, check out Warr's site, too. I've been going through that for the past few days and he's got some great points for the Isthmus Riva, which does take only a day to a day and a half to cross, but also see the points raised above suggesting two journeys. His Cumorah candidate (Cerro San Gil) also seems to fit the bill much more than the other two. It has limestone which would be more conducive to build caves and to hide in. And looking at a map, it truly is in a land of "many waters."

Still, both candidates have solid points. Each has their merits. Nephite monks...that's a thought.

[Cumorah3]

I don't wish it were, but it looks like Dr. Ainsworth and I see eye-to-eye on a certain topic, which debating on this board has only shown over and over to me...

He is of course not the only one, but unlike many academics Dr. Ainsworth backs up book learning with field work. He has been on the ground exploring Mesoamerica for decades, often risking his life to learn more.

I have a photo of Dr. Ainsworth clinging precariously to the cow catcher of a Mexican steam engine train as it roars through what he thinks is the Narrow Passage.

He has written a fairly extensive report on the Narrow Passage/Narrow Pass issue.

Here's a link for those who are interested:

http://mormonsites.org/page5.html#narrow

[Cold Steel]

Is this a natural pass? None of it blown out with explosives?

Dr. Ainsworth says:

After counting these rivers in the northern part of the Isthmus, I then wondered, out loud, how many rivers there were on the Pacific side of the Isthmus. While contemplating this question it dawned on me that if dozens of rivers ran north to the Gulf and a similar number ran south to the Pacific Ocean, there must be a space close to the center of the Isthmus where there were no rivers, a continental divide. I concluded that if this was the case, then possibly that narrow section of land, (where there were no rivers), might possibly be the narrow pass. A section of land where people could walk from the land southward to the land northward, without having to cross a river, or at least fewer rivers.

Helaman 4:7: And there [the land of Bountiful] they did fortify against the Lamanites, from the west sea, even unto the east; it being a dayâ??s journey for a Nephite, on the line which they had fortified and stationed their armies to defend their north country.

Alma 22:32: And now, it was only the distance of a day and a halfâ??s journey for a Nephite, on the line Bountiful and the land Desolation, from the east to the west sea....

The Book of Mormon thus describes the journeys from the boundaries of their fortifications in either direction, not the distance between the East Sea and the West Sea. Still, that's a long fortification line to maintain for any length of time. But if Dr. Ainsworth is correct about the narrow pass, then the ancients would have seen the passage as "narrow" as well as the land.

I'd be interested in hearing what Dr. Ainsworth thinks about James Warr's model. The one danger of research is that people become wed to a particular idea and not being able to keep an open mind. Currently I'm convinced that one of the models is right, but haven't quite settled on which one. I see the strengths in both arguments. The Isthmus of Tehuantepec (and would someone please help me with this pronounciation!) does head in a northward-southward orientation if one assumes the Nephites knew that all land was ultimately either northward or southward. The east-west orientation could be aptly described as a land which had been divided by the sea. (They had a sea to the north and to the south.) So it's a strong position. Yet Warr's model also seems to meet the basic criteria.

Arguments for Cerro San Gil as Cumorah.

There are numerous streams and rivers, as well as lakes around Warr's Cumorah, plus limestone. It also would be a very strategic site, offering Mormon a number of advantages. Warr states: "The area has only been superfically explored archeologically probably because it doesn't contain the spectacular Mayan ruins of some other areas of Guatemala. However what has been found is very interesting (1). On the western slope of the mountain, along the valleys of four of the more prominent streams, are thousands of "monticulos", or house mounds, upon which the ancient inhabitants erected their thatch homes. These mounds are evidence of a large and active human population. This occupation has tentatively been dated as late preclassic to late classic (300-900 AD). An interesting anomaly is that the lithic (stone) artifacts outnumber the ceramic ones."

[Cumorah3]

I'd be interested in hearing what Dr. Ainsworth thinks about James Warr's model. The one danger of research is that people become wed to a particular idea and not being able to keep an open mind.

I doubt that Dr. Ainsworth would be interested in examing another theory at this time.

It's my guess that you live in a house and that you know exactly where your house is located. So why then would you spend time looking somewhere else for your house?

It's certainly possible though that Cerro Bernal will prove to be a dry hole. If that happens, maybe Dr. Poulsen's suggestion, or someone else's will be examined more closely.

But certainly not yet, Bernal seems to be the right place...

[Cold Steel]

It's my guess that you live in a house and that you know exactly where your house is located. So why then would you spend time looking somewhere else for your house? It's certainly possible though that Cerro Bernal will prove to be a dry hole. If that happens, maybe Dr. Poulsen's suggestion, or someone else's will be examined more closely. But certainly not yet, Bernal seems to be the right place...

Are you saying that Dr. Ainsworth knows he's in the right spot? That he's that confident?

I certainly believe Cerro Bernal is a good candidate for Cumorah, but I don't know that I would put all my eggs in one basket. The only investigation he'd have to do is read that one website -- perhaps three html pages, tops. But if he's certain enough of his own ideas, he doesn't feel like he needs to. That's what I mean about being too wed to one model.

Now if he's talking about having a spiritual witness, perhaps he feels he has one and doesn't need to look further.

[poulsenll]

Thank Larry,

That's very interesting. Maybe if its not too much trouble you could post us when his research is published since you seem to be appraised of the situation.

Thanks again

Warship

Finally got an issue of his newsletter and have recovered his Email address. Contact him directly at

Patrick Simiskey

E-mail Address(es):

simiskey@swbell.net

for how to order his book.

Larry P

[Cold Steel]

Have you ever read Sorenson's seminal work An Ancient American Setting for the Book of Mormon?The Isthmus of Rivas has numerous problems that cause it to be rejected as a candidate for the land of the Book of Mormon, not the least being its failure to provide the right kind of civilizations at the right time, and several other geographic prerequisites.

Just finished Sorenson's book and have done a little more reading on the Internet. I'm amazed at Joseph Fielding Smith's approach and tone to the issue. He was certainly correct in saying it's not something we should be hung up on, but I took in his statement active discouragement from further research. Looking at that tiny hill in New York and trying to imagine tens of thousands of Nephites camped about it is laughable. Looking at the Cumorah candidates in Mesoamerica, on the other hand, can be quite engaging. Speculative, perhaps, but what's wrong with that?

I still find many of Warr's statements to be credible, especially since he's taking the time to address them in an open and honest fashion. My greatest problem with the Isthmus of Tehuantepec being the narrow neck of land remains its large size. The Isthmus of Rivas has been found to abound with (according to Warr) thousands of living quarters that may date back to the Nephite era. Being a society that may have built largely from wood, they may be the only logical remains. Citing John Gee, Warr says "if the Nephites built mainly with wood, then such buildings would decompose rather quickly leaving few prominant or obvious ruins." He goes on: "I seriously question whether the Nephites ever built anything similar to the elaborate temple complexes of Mesoamerica. Such projects undoubtable required slave labor to construct, involved heavy taxation of the resources of the community, and required a monarchial government to impose such requirements. When you read the account of righteous King Mosiah (Mosiah Ch. 2) who refused to tax his people, working with his own hands for his support, not placing unbearable burdens upon the people, and certainly not placing them in servitude, it is difficult to envision him building huge cities, public works, or monuments beyond the actual needs of the community. But such things were the product of wicked and oppressive monarchs such as Riplaskish (see Ether Ch. 10) who enslaved his people and taxed them to the point that they rebelled against him, all to 'build many spacious buildings.'" See his page on Jaredite and Nephite Building and Construction.

That possible Jaredite construction existed south of the Isthmus of Tehuantepec may indicate that the narrow neck is further to the south, he notes.

The Book of Mormon's consistency in geography, added to the fact that there can be several viable models that work in that part of the world, is another evidence that we should take it seriously. Shying away from it can only have the opposite influence.

James Warr's contents of his model can be found here.