Did Irenaeus Say There Were Other Real Gods?

[Beowulf]

Well, Johnny the real problem here is the nature of the creation, not whether man can become like God.

Why? You are arguing from an assumption that God is the Creator of everything out of Nothing, and that is why man will always be a "creature".

If, however, God organized the universe out of existing materials, as the LDS position asserts, then the difficulty over the fundamental difference between God as Creator and Man as Creature disappears. Instead, we are all the same species... God, Angels, and Man.

Your question about Enoch becoming infinite in power when he becomes a god puzzles me. Infinite is a remarkably large number , and so I hesitate to speculate.

The LDS position is that we can become gods, but that we will never be as powerful as our God, since He is always ahead of us in progression. (This is actually not that far from your position of men as creatures never equalling God even when they become gods. ) Whether this represents different levels of infinities (oh brother...) or no one reaches infinity (not even God) I am not sure about. But I think it is a silly problem...

Beowulf

[johnny]

Beowulf,

The LDS position is that we can become gods,

I will not respond since it sounds like urroner does not want this thread to become a discussion of the Mormon doctrine of deification.

[David Waltz]

Hello Lynn,

You began this thread with a post that ended with:

>>From these quotes, it seems to me that Irenaeus seemed to saying that there are other gods or Gods, though they are subordinate to God the Father.

Have I misinterpreted Irenaeus's beliefs and if I have how have I done so?>>

Me: Many of the early Church Fathers certainly believed â??that there are other gods or Gods, though they are subordinate to God the Father.â?

In fact, the ECFâ??s considered our Lord, Jesus Christ, to be, as Justin put it, â??another Godâ? subordinate to the Father.

Concerning subordination, one of greatest patristic scholars of the 20th century had this to say:

Indeed, until Athanasius began writing, every single theologian, East and West, had postulated some form of Subordinationism. It could, about the year 300, have been described as a fixed part of catholic theology. [R.P.C. Hanson, "The Achievement of Orthodoxy in the Fourth Century AD," The Making of Orthodoxy, edited by Rowan Williams (New York: Cambridge University Press, 1989), 153.]

Irenaeus was not an exception. Like the NT, Irenaeus reserves certain titles for God the Father alone, which include: â??the one Godâ?; â??the Almightyâ?; and â??the Supreme Godâ?. An honest reading of Irenaeus forces one to conclude that God the Father is the one, Almighty, Supreme God in a unique sense that He alone can claim.

Yet, Jesus Christ is clearly called God by Irenaeus, but importantly, so are the glorified saints. Irenaeus wrote:

...there is none other called God by the Scriptures except the Father of all, and the Son, and those who possess the adoption. Since, therefore, this is sure and steadfast, that no other God or Lord was announced by the Spirit, except Him who, as God, rules over all, together with His Word, and those who receive the Spirit of adoption. (Adv. Her. 4.Pref.4 - 4.1.1 - ANF 1.463).

Grace and peace,

David

[urroner]

Thank you David. This is the type of answer I am looking for. Roman, also thank you.

All I wanted to know was what did Irenaeus mean when he called something other than God "Gods" or "gods." I wasn't going to argue with another person interpretation, though I might ask them questions.

Now David, I'm going to ask a big favor. I did a little searching on your quotes and tried reading Irenaeus's Against Heresies 1: 1-2 and came away a little more confused. Maybe you can help me just a little, if you have time, to understand what Irenaeus is saying.

1. Since, therefore, this is sure and stedfast, that no other God or Lord was announced by the Spirit, except Him who, as God, rules over all, together with His Word, and those who receive the Spirit of adoption, that is, those who believe in the one and true God, and in Jesus Christ the Son of God; and likewise that the apostles did of themselves term no one else as God, or name [no other] as Lord; and, what is much more important, [since it is true] that our Lord [acted likewise], who did also command us to confess no one as Father, except Him who is in the heavens, who is the one God and the one Father;â??those things are clearly shown to be false which these deceivers and most perverse sophists advance, maintaining that the being whom they have themselves invented is by nature both God and Father; but that the Demiurge is naturally neither God nor Father, but is so termed merely by courtesy (verbo tenus), because of his ruling the creation, these perverse mythologists state, setting their thoughts against God; and, putting aside the doctrine of Christ, and of themselves divining falsehoods, they dispute against the entire dispensation of God. For they maintain that their

[PosterMania]

God (Heavenly Father) is our only God and is the God of our world. He had a son Jesus Christ.

However, I was taught (including at BYU Jerusalem) where we studied the original bible texts that there was a council of Gods in the beginning and that in Genesis, there are times when the actual interpretation of the word was"gods" (plural) not "god" (singluar).

This would indicate that in the overall universe all time and eternity stuff that there is more than one god.

However, again, we have only one God.

"Hence, the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine. It is all over the face of the Bible . . . Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many . . . but to us there is but one God--that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all" (History of the Church, Vol. 6, page 474). "In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it."

(Jospeh Smith, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5).

POST ALERT: CAN OF WORMS!!! CAN OF WORMS!!! CAN OF WORMS!!!!

[David Waltz]

Hello again Lynn,

Letâ??s start by clearing up the source of our respective quotes.

The quote I provided from Against Heresies is from book 4, not book 1. I specifically quoted the end of paragraph 4 from the â??Prefaceâ? of book 4, and paragraph 1, of chapter 1, of book 4.

The quote you provided in your last post is from book 4, chapter 1, paragraphs 1 and 2.

Now, on to what I believe Irenaeus was saying.

Against Heresies was directed primarily at the false teachings of various Gnostic groups (and to a much lesser extent, the Ebionites). Though teachings varied among these Gnostic groups, one theme was held common by all: the ONE TRUE GOD could not have created the material universe and all that it contains, and this due to their belief that matter is evil. To account for the creation of the universe, most Gnostics taught that an inferior God called the Demiurge was the creator of the universe and matter. They also taught that there was a series of hierarchical emanations from the ONE TRUE GOD, before the emanation of the Demiurge.

Irenaeusâ?? throughout Against Heresies argues that the prophets and apostles taught of no other Supreme God than the God and Father of Jesus Christ. Building on this teaching, he then goes on to state that Jesus Christ was begotten by this one true God, and that He then created the universe and everything in it through His Son.

Further, Jesus Christ is also God, not a mere emanation, because God the Father communicated all of His attributes to the Son. The Son in turn through the grace of adoption bestows all that He is upon His adopted brothers.

...the Word of God, our Lord Jesus Christ, who did, through His transcendent love, become what we are, that He might bring us to be even what He is Himself.( Irenaeus, Adv. Her. 5.Pref - ANF 1.526)

Hope this helps, if you have any further questions, please feel free to ask awayâ?¦

Grace and peace,

David

[urroner]

Thanks David. I realize that I was quoting a different part of Irenaeus's teachings and since my quote was at the start of Against Heresies and also talked about gods, I was hoping you would give me a little background of what he was writing about and you did a wonderful job.

Maybe I can go back now and re-read the whole thing and understand it a little bit more.

Maybe I should also do a little bit more searching for the answer before asking.

Rock on beach bum

[Zenvis]

Arroner,

I just have one scripture that comes to mind...

Psalms 82:6-7

"

6. I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are the children of the most High.

7. But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

"

In other words, even David confirmed our "godhood" and our own "divinity" in one of his own "Hymns" or Psalms. Can't argue with our own divinity .