Jehovah vs. Elohim

[Theophilus]

"Elohim" and "YHWH" aren't distinct from one another. Rather than "Elohim is the Father" and "YHWH is Jesus", as LDS believe, "YHWH" is the name of the one and only God ("Elohim") that exists, the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. "Elohim" isn't a "name", it simply means "god", and is what YHWH *is*.

"YHWH" is *who* He is.

"Elohim" is *what* He is.

In the same way that the cat's name is "Fluffy",

Elohim's name is "YHWH".

In the same way that the dog's name if "Fido",

Elohim's name is "YHWH".

Fido is (a) cat.

Fluffy is (a) dog.

Selek is human.

YHWH is elohim.

Even the Bible demonstrates this fact that "Jehovah (YHWH) is Elohim":

Deut. 4:35 Jehovah is Elohim and there is no other.

Deut. 4:39 Jehovah is Elohim in the heavens above and on earth below, and that there is no other.

Deu 6:4 "Hear, O Israel! Jehovah is our Elohim, Jehovah alone!

Deut. 7:9 Jehovah, your Elohim, is Elohim indeed, the faithful Elohim...

2Sa 22:32 "For who is Elohim except Jehovah? Who is a rock save our elohim?

1Ki 8:60 Jehovah is Elohim and there is no other.

1Ki 18:39 Seeing this, all the people fell prostrate and said, "The Jehovah is Elohim! Jehovah is Elohim!"

Psa 100:3 Know that Jehovah is Elohim, our maker to whom we belong, whose people we are, Elohim's well-tended flock.

Psa 118:27 Jehovah is Elohim and has given us light.

Theophilus

[selek]

Theo,

What scriptures are you using? This looks suspiciously like a modern translation.

[johnny]

selek,

That whole silly, Call For References thing I asked earlier, then repeated?

Again open another thread and let's talk ...

And for the record, no they are not the same God, but part of the same GODHEAD.

Could you provide scripture to support that "they are not the same God" ... I provided scripture to show they are the same God.

[johnny]

selek,

What scriptures are you using?

What scriptures are you using to support the idea that Jehovah and Elohim are different Gods?

[Nomos]

Johnny,

Stop answering questions with questions. Either pony up an actual response to the questions that were posed of you, or don't bother posting. Otherwise it's a waste of time.

[maklelan]

"Elohim" and "YHWH" aren't distinct from one another.  Rather than "Elohim is the Father" and "YHWH is Jesus", as LDS believe, "YHWH" is the name of the one and only God ("Elohim") that exists, the God of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.  "Elohim" isn't a "name", it simply means "god", and is what YHWH *is*.

This is a convincing argument if one makes sure to leave out all the scriptures and doctrinal paradoxes that contradict this problem.

According to Isaiah 43:11 and 49:26 Jehovah is the Saviour and Redeemer of the world and there is no other, nor ever will be. According to the New Testament Jesus is the Saviour - God the Father is only aiding and abetting salvation. Is this some silly little metaphysical brain bender where God is referring to Himself, but to another person in Himself that is actually not Himself? If Jehovah is not Jesus then this contradiction needs an explanation.

Everyone is well aware of the fact that in Genesis God is talking to another something that is aiding Him in creation. He says "let us make man in our image". Is this another example of some metaphysical calisthenics where we are really only me and my thoughts? Is this one of those examples where God's nature just happens to fit perfectly into the Stoic doctrine of the Logos? God can't associate with matter and flesh, so he uses some spooky nous of His to do His work, and it is His Wisdom and His Reason and His Word, but it's not a separate being yet?

What of all of the references by God, Paul and Jesus to other gods. We are told by each of these three people that they actually do exist. That would mean Elohim is not an exclusive title, making YHWH just one in a sea of Elohim. That would also mean that when we refer to Elohim, we don't always refer to YHWH.

Here's a funny little correlation for y'all: Elohim means God or gods. Jehovah is an English transliteration of YHWH with the vowels from adonai loosely interspersed. YHWH is believed to be the causitive form of the infinite lihyot (to be) in Hebrew. That means YHWH literally means "one who causes to be". The compound LORD God (YHWH ELOHIM), found all over the Old Testament, literally means "One who causes gods to be". Isn't that cute?

[Cold Steel]

Open another thread and let's talk about Anthropomorphism and Human Deification: Theopoiesis since the topic of this thread is Jehovah vs. Elohim ...

Fine, but it's difficult to talk about the identity of the divine ones without mentioning the creation in context. One lone being wasn't just sitting in space creating everything from nothing. It's clear that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all were involved in the process along with others. Elohim, Jehovah, Michael and many of the noble and great ones were all taking part.

One cannot understand the opening paragraphs of Genesis without a knowledge of the identity of the divine ones. In fact, once Origen was brought into the picture, it was all but unavoidable that the rest would follow because Origen found the physical nature of God to be base, crass, and unimaginable.

[Theophilus]

What scriptures are you using? This looks suspiciously like a modern translation.

All you need to do is look up the citations in your own KJV (that's why I gave the citations, after all), and remember that "LORD" (small caps) represents the Hebrew Tetragrammaton, "YHWH" ("Jehovah"), and "God" is from the Hebrew "Elohiim". I simply left those two terms transliterated (rather than translated in each case).

You can see the accuracy of my citations in just about any translation you wish, the KJV, NIV, NASB, NAB, RSV, etc. etc.

Theophilus

[selek]

All you need to do is look up the citations in your own KJV (that's why I gave the citations, after all), and remember that "LORD" (small caps) represents the Hebrew Tetragrammaton, "YHWH" ("Jehovah"), and "God" is from the Hebrew "Elohiim". I simply left those two terms transliterated (rather than translated in each case).

Actually, I looked up several of the references in the online LDS scriptures (KJV, with JST footnotes) just to see for myself.

I'm not sure that the transliteration is wholly appropriate in each case, or that the intent of the original verse is preserved in doing so. I certainly didn't take them that way.

Unfortunately, the Bible, given the myriad translation errors and use of both allegory and metaphor, is a poor choice for a simple "find/replace a word" operation.

Personally, I think you're falling into the same trinity fallacy that so enamored and ensnared Johnny.

[Theophilus]

What of all of the references by God, Paul and Jesus to other gods.  We are told by each of these three people that they actually do exist.

That means YHWH literally means "one who causes to be".  The compound LORD God (YHWH ELOHIM), found all over the Old Testament, literally means "One who causes gods to be".  Isn't that cute?

There are no such "references", that other gods "actually do exist".

(I'm guessing that's the reason you didn't offer any citations to support your claim.)

In fact, the Bible explicitly denies your claim, in Deut. 4:35, 39, 6:4, 2 Sam. 22:32, 2 Kings 19:15,19, Psalm 18:31, 86:10, Isa. 37:16,20, 44:6,8, 45:5,21,22, 46:9, John 17:3, 1 Tim. 2:5, etc.

That means YHWH literally means "one who causes to be". 

Actually, that's not true either.

"YHWH" means "self-existent".

(Check Strong's, or Brown-Driver-Briggs, for example, if you doubt.)

That's why when Moses asks God who he should say sent him in Ex. 3, God responds with:

Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

"I am that I am", namely that God is self-existent.

Theophilus

[johnny]

maklelan,

According to Isaiah 43:11 and 49:26 Jehovah is the Saviour and Redeemer of the world and there is no other, nor ever will be.

According to the Old Testament God is our Savior.

God our Saviour sent his Son to be our Saviour.

1Tim.1

[1] Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;

1John 4

[14] And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

If Jehovah is not Jesus then this contradiction needs an explanation.

Christ is the Son of God and God (YHWH, Elohim).

The Son and Father are one.

Everyone is well aware of the fact that in Genesis God is talking to another something that is aiding Him in creation. He says "let us make man in our image".

God is one but not solitary.

Their are three divine persons.

What of all of the references by God, Paul and Jesus to other gods.

God is the God of Gods.

Their is only one God.

The compound LORD God (YHWH ELOHIM), found all over the Old Testament, literally means "One who causes gods to be". Isn't that cute?

Jehovah and ELohim are the same God.

Isa 53

[4] Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God(Elohim), and afflicted.

[6] All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD(Jehovah) hath laid on him(Jesus, the Son of God) the iniquity of us all.

[johnny]

Cold Steel,

Elohim, Jehovah, Michael and many of the noble and great ones were all taking part.

Elohim and Jehovah are the same God. Scripture does not reveal they are seperate Gods.

One cannot understand the opening paragraphs of Genesis without a knowledge of the identity of the divine ones.

The divine ones are "the Word/the Son", "Wisdom/the HG", and "God/the Father".

[Theophilus]

I'm not sure that the transliteration is wholly appropriate in each case, or that the intent of the original verse is preserved in doing so.

[maklelan]

God is the God of Gods. 

Their is only one God.

So God is the God of all the other Gods, but there are no other Gods.

As unincumbered as you are with the weight of common sense, even this couplet must jump out to you as obsurd.

What about my instruction "don't make personal remarks" eludes this illustrious debating society? Thread closed. -mod