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Rajah Manchou

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Everything posted by Rajah Manchou

  1. I have no problem with you not dialoguing with me. But this is the second time you've accused me of lying, to get me banned, and then run away without an apology when its revealed you were wrong to accuse me. If you don't want to discuss with me, then simply don't discuss with me. No need to stir drama up and call in the mods. Overreaction.
  2. If I am JarMan then those pages and pages of me arguing with myself about whether or not Eric Garner was killed by a chokehold was an epic display of schizophrenia. 😁
  3. What are you talking about? By try again, I mean I've posted twice about the History of the Rechabites as an example of an inspired fiction that follows the same narrative as the Book of Mormon. You can see my previous two posts about it in this thread. I am not JarMan. Calm down So let me try again: There's a 5th century AD Jewish-Christian text, that is not the Book of Mormon, that describes Israelites departing Jerusalem in 600 BC for an island in the sea that was given to them by God. Those Israelites kept their history on tablets that were meant to be another testament of Jesus Christ and salvation to the rest of us, if we would only read their history and ponder upon it and imitate the lessons learned from it. Do you believe it matters whether this text is historical or fictional?
  4. I'll try again, in different words: There's a 5th century AD Jewish-Christian text, that is not the Book of Mormon, that describes Israelites departing Jerusalem in 600 BC for an island in the sea that was given to them by God. Those Israelites kept their history on tablets that were meant to be another testament of Jesus Christ and salvation to the rest of us, if we would only read their history and ponder upon it and imitate the lessons learned from it. Do you believe it matters whether this text is historical or fictional?
  5. and by "settled doctrine" you mean "Book of Mormon events took place somewhere in the Western Hemisphere"? That's settled and there's no chance that the Church might receive further revelation on it?
  6. I'm not trying to befuddle you with a square peg, I'm trying to communicate to you that if you insist all the people that can't make it fit have a false position, there will be no resolution to this discussion.
  7. I think almost every member of the church is anxious and willing to accept the Book of Mormon as authentic history. I am. The problem is the tension that is felt trying to fit square pegs in round holes, and every time someone points at a square peg and says "um, that doesn't fit" ... someone likely questions their testimony. It has happened to me and others on this board. If you'd like members to stop entertaining "false positions" on Book of Mormon authenticity, then where did the events in Book of Mormon take place? Any hesitation on the response means there needs to be more wiggle room on how we define true and false positions.
  8. I hadn't followed that thought at the time, but reviewing it now, there are some interesting similarities between the Zosimus narrative and 1 Nephi 13. A group of Israelites fled the destruction of Jerusalem in the 6th century BC. They are led by God across the waters and end up on an island in the sea that was given to them by God. Around the early 5th century AD, a Saint of God named Zosimus was carried across the waters to establish contact with them. Zosimus carried the record of this people (another Testament of Jesus Christ) back to Palestine. Satan, fearing the spread of this secondary testament which would be as salvation to those who read it, challenged Zosimus. Satan loses the challenge. For 36 years, Zosimus taught other monks in the desert the contents of that history. "And all the monks were gathered together and all who heard it, and this testament was read to all of them, and in such life [Zosimus] gave up his soul to God." (source) Edit: worth mentioning that the number of years Zosimus lived in a cave while he instructed his desert brothers in the content of the Rechabite testament is the same number of years Moroni wandered with the plates: 36. Paul Owen has already pointed out that 421 AD (the closing of the Book of Mormon) is the traditional Catholic date of the death of Saint Mary of Egypt. She was one of the most prominent of the Desert Mothers and a close associate of St. Zosimus. (source)
  9. The Narrative of Zosimus, a 5th century expansion on the History of the Rechabites, was well-known outside the Anglophone world for centuries, particularly in Slavonic and Russian literature. IMO, The Book of Mormon is another expansion on the History of the Rechabites. Even Book of Mormon scholars catch that there's something there: The Rechabites: A Model Group in Lehi's World, Thompson, Jeffrey P., and John W. Welch The 'Narrative of Zosimus' and the Book of Mormon, Daniel Peterson
  10. The Lehites and Mulekites would have encountered more accomplished navigators and more knowledgeable cartographers along the way. Without that extra information, I don't imagine either group would have thought it'd be a great idea to sail their boats into the deep ocean, away from the single landmass known to the Babylonians. The best example of a source of 6th century BC Israelite migrations documented in the 4th century AD is the History of the Rechabites linked above. That text indicates a migration from Jerusalem to an island, nearly surrounded by water. There's nothing out-of-place or unusual about the internal map of the Book of Mormon as it would have been known in the 4th century AD.
  11. I'm somewhere in between inspired fiction and historical record, probably a bit of both. Last night I was listening to the History of the Rechabites, an authentic 4th century Jewish/Christian text and the similarities with the Book of Mormon narrative are unmistakable: https://youtu.be/kRCFHg1rZt0?t=948 Starting at 15:49, the context for this text is a Christian monk who had asked God to show him where a mysterious group of First Temple tent-dwelling Israelites had disappeared to. The monk, after praying to know their identity and location, was led to an island in the middle of the sea that was inhabited by those tent-dwelling people from Jerusalem. Those Israelites told the monk that although they had been separated by great waters from their brothers in Jerusalem, they had inscribed their own history on tablets so that their history would be as salvation for those in Jerusalem. These isolated Israelites, even though they left Jerusalem 600 years before Christ, knew of Jesus and the virgin Mary. Challenge: listen for 3-5 minutes starting at 15:49, and ask, how did Joseph Smith write a book of fiction that was so similar to a 4th century Jewish Christian text, that had been translated to English after the publication of the Book of Mormon?
  12. In August 1830, when Joseph was met by the messenger that revealed D&C27, Moroni hadn't yet been identified as the angel that revealed the Book of Mormon. Every person that encountered Moroni previous to the addition of Verse 5 described an old traveller wandering around Palmyra with golden plates in a backpack and, according to one account, a caged monkey. I'm not an inspired-fiction adherent, but I see no problem taking the earliest accounts of Moroni and the golden plates at face value while also believing that Joseph was told by a messenger on the road that he'd one day drink some fruit of the vine with someone named Moroni.
  13. As far as I know, Swedenborg didn't pretend that his writings were canonical in any sense. But he did claim that there was an ancient canon of Biblical and extra-Biblical texts that had been preserved by Israelites in a distant land. He taught that those Israelites were separated from the main body, in part, to preserve those ancient scriptures.
  14. I remember this one from a few years ago. A consecrated oil vial even makes a mysterious appearance. When I first watched this I didn't think it was out-of-the-ordinary. Witnesses Claim Miracle Man Saved Car Crash Victim With Prayer | ABC World News
  15. Not at all new. Even the added detail of more scriptures being discovered in an isolated Land of Promise across the great waters was not new. Swedenborg talked about a land of isolated Israelites with ancient scriptures that would soon be revealed. A British diplomat rocked Christianity in the 18th century when he claimed to have discovered and translated lost Indian scriptures that described the mission of Jesus Christ and what appears to be the Mormon Plan of Salvation.
  16. Correct, it doesn't indicate that Joseph recognized the man with the plates as Moroni. Likewise, in the Copley story, Joseph did not recognize the man with the plates as Moroni. Likewise, it also seems to be the first time Whitmer (and presumably Joseph Smith) heard the name Cumorah. The name of the old man's destination was Charzee. Not Cumorah.
  17. I decided to just copy straight from the FairMormon article linked to in the comment I was responding to. But there were three different sightings of this old gentleman identified as Moroni. (1) the sighting retold by Leman Copley (2) David Whitmer's telling of their encounter with the old man on the road to Cumorah/Charzee (3) Mary Whitmer's account of seeing the golden plates in the old man's backpack. Three different accounts from three different sources, and none of them seem to connect the old man named Moroni with the Angel Moroni that visited Joseph Smith numerous times previous to these encounters. Let's take the David Whitmer account for example: When I was returning to Fayette with Joseph and Oliver all of us riding in the wagon, Oliver and I on an old-fashioned wooden spring seat and Joseph behind us, while traveling along in a clear open place, a very pleasant, nice-looking old man suddenly appeared by the side of our wagon who saluted us with, “good morning, it is very warm,” at the same time wiping his face or forehead with his hand. We returned the salutation, and by a sign from Joseph I invited him to ride if he was going our way. But he said very pleasantly, “No, I am going to Cumorah.” This name was something new to me, I did not know what Cumorah meant. We all gazed at him and at each other, and as I looked round enquiringly of Joseph the old man instantly disappeared, so that I did not see him again. Sounds to me like Joseph Smith didn't recognize this old man as Moroni in the accounts we have of the two different encounters. Mary saw, I assume, the same old man and called him Brother Nephi every time she told the story. So, who was this old man with golden plates in his backpack?
  18. I've never understood these accounts of Joseph and members of the Whitmer family seeing Moroni wandering around. For example (from the link you posted): After he had finished translating the Book of Mormon, he again buried up the plates in the side of a mountain, by command of the Lord; some time after this, he was going through a piece of woods, on a by-path, when he discovered an old man dressed in ordinary grey apparel...The Lord told him that the man he saw was MORONI, with the plates, and if he had given him the five coppers, he might have got his plates again. - Messenger and Advocate - 1835 If that was Moroni, why didn't Joseph recognize him? Why would the Lord need to reintroduce Moroni to Joseph after the translation of the Book of Mormon was completed? Also, Mary Whitmer identified this person wandering around with gold plates in his rucksack as Brother Nephi.
  19. Saw this in another channel, and though of you all:
  20. If you look at the map included with the video, you'll see that one of the source locations is a narrow neck of land that matches the geography of the Book of Mormon. It was known as Komara in Book of Mormon times. The DNA of the people who first settled in this narrow neck of land is heavily shifted towards the Middle East, including R1a-M420, R-M479, R-M17, and R-M124. They later traveled east through the Polynesian islands as far as South America and west as far as Madagascar. Michael Coe himself stated that he believed the Maya of Mesoamerica were culturally connected to the ancient inhabitants of Komara.
  21. I'd like to hear an explanation as to why it might remain excluded.
  22. We accept the statements of the 11 witnesses to the Book of Mormon. It seems likely those that lived through Joseph Smith's death accepted the claims of James Strang. It's difficult because none of them accepted the claims of Brigham Young.
  23. There were several secondary sources giving collective weight to the claims that Harris stated that he saw the plates with "spiritual eyes": Vogel, Early Mormon Documents, 2: 255. The foreman in the Palmyra printing office that produced the first Book of Mormon said that Harris "used to practice a good deal of his characteristic jargon and 'seeing with the spiritual eye,' and the like." Pomeroy Tucker, Origin, Rise, and Progress of Mormonism (New York: D. Appleton and Co., 1867), 71 in EMD, 3: 122. John H. Gilbert, the typesetter for most of the book, said that he had asked Harris, "Martin, did you see those plates with your naked eyes?" According to Gilbert, Harris "looked down for an instant, raised his eyes up, and said, 'No, I saw them with a spiritual eye." John H. Gilbert, "Memorandum," 8 September 1892, in EMD, 2: 548. Two other Palmyra residents said that Harris told them that he had seen the plates with "the eye of faith" or "spiritual eyes." Martin Harris interviews with John A. Clark, 1827 & 1828 in EMD, 2: 270; Jesse Townsend to Phineas Stiles, 24 December 1833, in EMD, 3: 22. In 1838, Harris is said to have told an Ohio congregation that "he never saw the plates with his natural eyes, only in vision or imagination." Stephen Burnett to Lyman E. Johnson, 15 April 1838 in EMD, 2: 291. A neighbor of Harris in Kirtland, Ohio, said that Harris "never claimed to have seen [the plates] with his natural eyes, only spiritual vision." Reuben P. Harmon statement, c. 1885, in EMD, 2: 385. The claim is also made, and I'm trying to confirm this, that all but one of the witnesses to the Book of Mormon accepted James Strang's claims. James Strang was sustained as prophet by two other members of the first presidency, three members of the quorum of twelve, five presidents of the seventies, the president of the high priests quorum and his counselor, four men in presidencies of elders quorums, the president of the priests quorum, and eight bishops at the largest church locations including the bishop over the whole church, the patriarch over the whole church, and seven members of major stake presidencies including the Nauvoo stake president and the Kirtland stake president. He was also sustained by the presidents of the largest branches of the church, including Boston, Chicago, New York City, and Philadelphia. James Strang was believed by at least seventeen people who were personally addressed by name in the Doctrine and Covenants. Strang was supported by all of the family of Joseph Smith. He was joined by the mother, wife, and three sisters of Joseph Smith. He was sustained by the only surviving brother of Joseph Smith, and his brothers-in-law. He was believed by all of the living Book of Mormon witnesses, except one who was no longer a member of the church. http://www.strangite.org/Famous.htm If true, it becomes difficult to say that all the witnesses to the Gold Plates were deceived by Strang.
  24. Remember, all of the early Strangites were followers of Joseph Smith that also believed the gold plates were real. Despite how we might view them today, they were Mormons, followers of Joseph Smith and believers in the Book of Mormon. They didn't instantly become members of some weird cult when they decided Strang's plates were authentic. As Weebles pointed out, the Voree Plates were on display for all to see. There was no need for witnesses to sign a statement that they saw them, because anybody could see them and hundreds of people did see them. Strang was simply following the precedent set by Joseph in getting signed statements from a set of witnesses. Imagine if the Golden Plates were available for over a decade for anybody to handle and examine. Then imagine one or two of all those people, after they had a falling out with Joseph Smith, saying that those plates "look like common brass" or that they "helped Joseph make those plates out of a tea pot". You can't always believe the things that people say, when those people have a chip on their shoulders. This is what you are doing when you give weight to the later statements of the witnesses of the Voree Plates. By the way, Martin Harris (one of the three witnesses to the Golden Plates) joined the Strangites and served a mission for the Strangite Church in England. A neighbor of his famously said that Harris "never claimed to have seen [the plates] with his natural eyes, only spiritual vision." Should we believe it?
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