Any new evidence for the historical account of the Book of Mormon?

[beastie]

Perhaps sea to sea means Mayan Nephites were scattered from sea to sea, it doesn't mean however every human from the west sea to the east sea were Nephites.

Why are you told its metaphorically? Well lets examine the phrase covering the face of the whole earth, literally it would mean a covering of the whole earth, its plain that I and most others on this thread subscribe to a LGT and if we took that phrase literally it would mean the whole Earth. How else are we suppose to take this? If you say it is just the Mesoamerican geography, then you too would be guilty of taking it metaphorically. I think we are just in disagreement.

Youâ??re ignoring the fact that apologists, most notably John Sorenson, have carefully analyzed the BoM and, on that basis, created a tentative mapping including candidate polities. Look at the map I included on my website here:

http://mormonmesoamerica.com/politiesandpo...tical%20Control

Then take a look at the polities Sorenson suggests as candidates for BoM polities:

Chiapa de Corzo, Chiapas, Mexico â?? Sidom (now the Zarahemla favorite)

Comitan, Chiapas, Mexico â?? Gideon

Guajilar,Chiapas, Mexico â?? Zeerom

Ocozocuautla, Chiapas, Mexico â?? Noah

Mirador â?? Chiapas, Mexico â?? Ammonihah

San Isidro, Chiapas, Mexico â?? Aaron

Santa Rosa, Chiapas, Mexico â?? Zarahemla (perhaps this will now be Sidom)

La Libertad, Chiapas, Mexico â?? Manti

near Motozintla â?? Antiparah

Vera Cruz II â?? Melek

El Chayal, Guatemala â?? Onidah

Chalchitan, Guatemala â?? Helam

Kaminaljuyu, Guatemala â?? City of Nephi

Frutal, Guatemala â?? Shilom

Cerro Vigia, Veracruz, Mexico - Cumorah

San Miguel, Tabasco, Mexico â?? Jershon

Chicomuselo area, Chiapas, Mexico â?? Judea

Huehuetenango area, Guatemala â?? Valley of Alma

Rio Blanco Valley or Malacatancito, Guatemala â?? Helam

near Acaycan and Hueyapan â?? Jashon and Shem

near Laguna Mecoacan or Tupilco, Veracruz, Mexico â?? City of Moroni

This helpful individual created a map showing some of these sites:

http://www.mesoamericadiscoveries.com/hill...rahveracruz.htm

Given the proffered mapping and candidates, it is clear that the Lehites â?? including Nephites, Lamanites, and apostate Nephites â?? did control polities that literally spread from sea to sea in Mesoamerica.

Brant

Except that you have "all the world" statements in lots of ancient documents where the meaning is limited. The Aztec word for the world was "cemanahuac" or "surrounded by water." That fit Tenochtitlan, but it was used for "the whole world."

The problem with discerning geography is knowing when a statement is literal and when it isn't. There isn't a hard and fast rule that tells you.

Given the fact that John Sorenson claimed that he carefully analyzed distances and geographical features in order to come up with his suggested candidates, it appears that he took the statement â??from sea to seaâ? literally, as well.

This is also complicated, because (I suspect) you are using distances that cover more than the text ever did at one time. During the time when Zarahemla is capital, you have a range from the Cuchumatanes to the Isthmus (say about 250x150 miles). That yields about 97000 square kms - about 1/5 the size you are suggesting. I agree that it is still large, but more representative of the text at a particular time.

Later, the Nephites move above the narrow neck, but Zarahemla is no longer part of their land. The actual expanse of the territory inhabited by Nephites isn't entirely known, but it is unlikely to have reached the Usumacinta. Then, of course, we have the continuing issue of the nature of the Nephite presence in that area--upon which we do not agree.

Of course, there was a time when the Nephite story might have included a city or two in highland Guatemala, but that was from 600 B.C. to 200 B.C. and never really after that point. Similarly, the Jaredites occupied an unknown range (assumed to be along the Gulf Coast), but that wasn't part of the Nephite story until the end (and not under their "control" even then).

Iâ??ve been sharing scriptures that demonstrate that apostate Nephite groups and Lamanites also adhered to a form of Judaism, and had familiarity with the same scriptures that the Nephites did. You cannot erase them from this equation when we are discussing the region of influence of the Lehite worldview.

[beastie]

Well Beastie, I imagine there are even many LDS who do not have the knowledge of the text of the Book of Mormon like you have displayed. You have even motivated me (however boring) to read the whole book again after many years out. I hope one day you publish a book on all your research. I would sure like that. Better than trawling through a lot of message board stuff.

Thanks, Noel. At this point I would say the chances of me writing a book on this topic is next to zero, but you never know. The time Iâ??ve invested in my website is probably the limit of my altruism motivated by a sense of social obligation â?? ie, sharing information I once would have found helpful.

BTW, if Brant ever does publish one text at a more reasonable price, I would definitely buy it â?? and probably write a review for my website.

[LifeOnaPlate]

For a six volume set, the price is reasonable.

noel: I don't believe beastie's venture would find a publisher, personally.

[LeSellers]

CFR [that it was Oliver Cowdery who first called the New York hill "Cumorah"]

You are acquainted with the mail road from Palmyra, Wayne Co. to Canandaigua, Ontario Co. N. Y. and also, as you pass from the former to the latter place, before arriving at the little village of Manchester, say from three to four, or about four miles from Palmyra, you pass a large hill on the east side of the road. Why I say large, is, because it is as large perhaps, as any in that country. ...

At about one mile west rises another ridge of less height, running parallel with the former, leaving a beautiful vale between. The soil is of the first quality for the country, and under a state of cultivation, which gives a prospect at once imposing, when one reflects on the fact, that here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed.

...

[Mormon] however, by divine appointment, abridged from those records, in his own style and language, a short account of the more important and prominent items, from the days of Lehi to his own time, after which he deposited, as he says, on the 529^th page, all the records in this same hill, Cumorah, and after gave his small record to his son Moroni, who, as appears from the same, finished, after witnessing the extinction of his people as a nation.

Messenger and Advocate

, July, 1835, p. 158.

This is the first instance I have seen of calling the Palmyra hill "Cumorah".

I think Joseph pretty clearly associates Cumorah with the New York area.

D&C 128

An epistle from Joseph Smith the Prophet to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, containing further directions on baptism for the dead; dated at Nauvoo, Illinois, September 6, 1842. HC 5: 148â??153.

20 And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophetsâ??the book to be revealed. A voice of the Lord in the wilderness of Fayette, Seneca county, declaring the three witnesses to bear record of the book! The voice of Michael on the banks of the Susquehanna, detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light! The voice of Peter, James, and John in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna county, and Colesville, Broome county, on the Susquehanna river, declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom, and of the dispensation of the fulness of times!

One, you'll note that it was seven years later that the Prophet wrote these lines.

Two, do not forget whom the Prophet was writing to: the Saints, many, if not most, of whom believed that "Cumorah" (in the Book of Mormon) was the same as the "Cumorah" named by Oliver. He was not writing a treatise on what "Cumorah" was. He was writing a letter about Baptism for the Dead, and encouraging the Church to get on with the practice, even though he was in hiding for his live.

1 As I stated to you in my letter before I left my place, that I would write to you from time to time and give you information in relation to many subjects, I now resume the subject of the baptism for the dead, as that subject seems to occupy my mind, and press itself upon my feelings the strongest, since I have been pursued by my enemies.

So, let's put your quote in perspective.

18 I might have rendered a plainer translation to this, but it is sufficiently plain to suit my purpose as it stands. It is sufficient to know, in this case, that the earth will be smitten with a curse unless there is a welding link of some kind or other between the fathers and the children, upon some subject or other--and behold what is that subject? It is the baptism for the dead. For we without them cannot be made perfect; neither can they without us be made perfect. Neither can they nor we be made perfect without those who have died in the gospel also; for it is necessary in the ushering in of the dispensation of the fulness of times, which dispensation is now beginning to usher in, that a whole and complete and perfect union, and welding together of dispensations, and keys, and powers, and glories should take place, and be revealed from the days of Adam even to the present time. And not only this, but those things which never have been revealed from the foundation of the world, but have been kept hid from the wise and prudent, shall be revealed unto babes and sucklings in this, the dispensation of the fulness of times.

19 Now, what do we hear in the gospel which we have received? A voice of gladness! A voice of mercy from heaven; and a voice of truth out of the earth; glad tidings for the dead; a voice of gladness for the living and the dead; glad tidings of great joy. How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of those that bring glad tidings of good things, and that say unto Zion: Behold, thy God reigneth! As the dews of Carmel, so shall the knowledge of God descend upon them!

20 And again, what do we hear? Glad tidings from Cumorah! Moroni, an angel from heaven, declaring the fulfilment of the prophets--the book to be revealed. A voice of the Lord in the wilderness of Fayette, Seneca county, declaring the three witnesses to bear record of the book! The voice of Michael on the banks of the Susquehanna, detecting the devil when he appeared as an angel of light! The voice of Peter, James, and John in the wilderness between Harmony, Susquehanna county, and Colesville, Broome county, on the Susquehanna river, declaring themselves as possessing the keys of the kingdom, and of the dispensation of the fulness of times!

21 And again, the voice of God in the chamber of old Father Whitmer, in Fayette, Seneca county, and at sundry times, and in divers places through all the travels and tribulations of this Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints! And the voice of Michael, the archangel; the voice of Gabriel, and of Raphael, and of divers angels, from Michael or Adam down to the present time, all declaring their dispensation, their rights, their keys, their honors, their majesty and glory, and the power of their priesthood; giving line upon line, precept upon precept; here a little, and there a little; giving us consolation by holding forth that which is to come, confirming our hope!

22 Brethren, shall we not go on in so great a cause? Go forward and not backward. Courage, brethren; and on, on to the victory! Let your hearts rejoice, and be exceedingly glad. Let the earth break forth into singing. Let the dead speak forth anthems of eternal praise to the King Immanuel, who hath ordained, before the world was, that which would enable us to redeem them out of their prison; for the prisoners shall go free.

You will notice that the Prophet was setting the stage for a spiritually motivational "speech". The goal of the letter was to get people to do their family history, and then to start the Temple Work for their ancestors. He was not about to get torn off on a tangent on Cumorah and where the "real" one was.

Furthermore, the Prophet's understanding of the Book of Mormon grew over time. Even had he felt that Cumorah/Ramah was near his boyhood home at one time, he had no reason to believe that exclusively throughout his life. And we have seen right here that he made many pronouncements that lead to a Limited Geographic Theory, including that Lehi landed in Peru (which ran much further north c. 1830 than today), and putting the book of Mormon territory was Mezoamerica.

Now it's easy to see what was obscure to our ancestors. Chronocentrism is a fallacy. Remember, Joseph translated the Book of Mormon, he did not write it. The ideas were not his. He studied the Book of Mormon because he did not know it as a writer would.

Lehi

[JLFuller]

If there was an area of the Americas that the church says the BofM is talking about that would be helpful.. After all this time there still is no definitive official church statement as where the BofM land were? Is it Panama? Honduras? Or New York blended into the Great Lakes? There is no statement from the Church where the narrow neck of land was.. How are they to tell us where the major cities of the Nephrites were? All they know that it was somewhere in the Western Hemisphere.. And yes in 200 years I would think that a bit more than that could be learned, that is if there is ANY connection between reality and the story of the BofM..

I don't know what others outside the church are feeling about the changed the church has made since MtDNA has all but pronounced the BofM false, I see the church change from the Lehi and his people ARE the ancestors of the American Indian to being the principle ancestors to being among the ancestors. I see the BofM becoming totally spiritualized.. More a teaching parable that a real story... IHS jim

James

Go watch the You Tube videos. Not that it will matter but at least you can say you have made at least a minimal attempt to learn something about the subject. You have to keep up on this James. You are falling behind.

I know James that sometimes we Mormons sound condescending and elitist. It is a character flaw, even in your humble servant. But the evidence is advancing so fast and in such volume that the knee jerk anti-Mormon rhetoric is getting left in the dust. I am not trying to be mean spirited my friend. It is just a matter of fact. You, the hard core Luddite-like anti-Mormons, are being marginalized and that is a shame. I think you could have a place in the conversation but you don't. You (broadly speaking) are just a bunch of nay sayers. You don't contribute anything that I can see. I have not read everything you write but that which I do read is highly uninformed. Even a pedestrian like me can see you are going no where in the conversation. Religion should be enlightening and uplifting and make you want to learn not force you to remain locked in a stagnating stupor. God wants you to grow. He wants you to learn about Him. This is your opportunity and you are blowing it.

[Mola Ram Suda Ram]

I'll pass on that LOP, a bit expensive. I imagine a book by Beastie would be cheaper and valuable as she would deal with the issues Brant G brings up.

For what it is worht 200 bones is a lot of money, I couldnt do that right now either. I understand what it is but man.

[beastie]

In chapter 43, we read that Captain Moroni left part of the army in Jershon (remember, the army was large enough that it required the exodus of the citizens of Jershon to provide rooming for the soldiers):

25 Now Moroni, leaving a part of his army in the land of Jershon, lest by any means a part of the Lamanites should come into that land and take possession of the city, took the remaining part of his army and marched over into the land of Manti.

26 And he caused that all the people in that quarter of the land should gather themselves together to battle against the Lamanites, to defend their lands and their country, their rights and their liberties; therefore they were prepared against the time of the coming of the Lamanites.

In the same chapter we read he divided the army yet again:

31 Therefore, he divided his army and brought a part over into the valley, and concealed them on the east, and on the south of the hill Riplah;

32 And the remainder he concealed in the west valley, on the west of the river Sidon, and so down into the borders of the land Manti.

Apologists tell us that the numbers cited in the BoM are exaggerated, and I have no problem with accepting that premise. However, even ignoring the inflated numbers, we can learn something about the size of polities by the size of their armies. Ross Hassig in his book War and Society in Ancient Mesoamerica give us the following general guidelines, on page 76 and 77, talks about the possible size of Mesoamerican armies. He is basing these statements on the fact that during this time period in Mesoamerica, most of the warfare was restricted to nobility.

Basing the military on the nobility meant that rewards also went to the elites. Moreover, the great diversity of weapons among the Maya indicates a lack of centralized control, suggesting the existence of a warrior class that owned its own weapons rather than a centralized army. This diversity also suggests that Maya armies did not rely on formations of uniform-arms wielders; such formations require training and group discipline unlikely to have been imposed on the nobility. Instead, greater emphasis was probably placed on individual prowess and less on group combat. Moreover, without the impetus of social mobility, aristocratic military systems were more resistant to the adoption of mass weapons. There was little incentive to adopt them among the elites, and the commoners, who could have gained from their use, could not participate. In such a system, commoners had little motivation for warfare.

Drawing primarily or exclusively on the nobility also limited the size of offensive Maya armies to probably no more than 1.3 to 2.2 percent of the total population (all males twenty to thirty-five years of age, or perhaps up to age fifty, drawn from the noble 10 percent of the population). The inherent limitations of such a system would be apparent only if confronted by a meritocratic system fielding vastly larger armies.

Among others, these features of aristocratic systems have led to warfare that has often been interpreted as ritual in nature. All warfare can be considered ritual to some extent in that it is rarely, if ever, an exercise in total domination. All war is based on cultural assumptions about what is and is not acceptable weaponry and behavior and is never a no-holds-barred affair. Furthermore, most armies have some form of chaplaincy, and major political and military events are often scheduled to coincide with important dates. Yet none of this renders war any less serious. In the Maya area, the symmetry of military arms, forces, and practices on both sides combined to make warfare seem more ritual. To the extent that conventional wars occurred, both sides fought with basically the same types and numbers of troops, used the same arms and armor, shared common notions of what was acceptable, and often met at mutually agreed upon locations. Thus, clashes often had the appearance of choreographed or ritualized behavior to a vastly greater degree than wars across cultural boundaries where the same arms and armor, army sizes, and behavioral norms were not shared. Yet Maya wars were deadly serious despite this superficial, and culturally external, appearance of ritual.

What these patterns of recruitment and warfare mean can be seen at Tikal, the largest city in the Maya lowlands, with an estimated peak population of 49,000. If restricted to the nobility, Tikal could have fielded an offensive army no larger than 619 and an effective maximum army no larger than 1,055 soldiers. Of course, additional men could be used in support, such as carrying burdens, but the aristocratic military system severely reduced the ability of any Maya city to wage large-scale or extended war. With the 3:1 defensive advantage and the large resident population that a besieged city could draw on tot counter the relatively small forces that could be arrayed against it, the aristocratic military system ensured the relative security of most Maya cities â?? not against raids, but certainly against outright conquest.

While some scholars argue for more commoner involvement, this is adequate for demonstrating the challenge that these verses present.

Of course the BoM seems to describe a different sort of military system, one which was not limited to nobility, and which may have been meritocratic. This would have allowed polities to create an army larger than the one limited to the nobility. Of course, the end results would have been an army that was much more powerful than that of the polities surrounding it that adhered to the Maya model. The later Aztecs had a meritocratic system, which enabled them to create vast armies. But it seems counter-productive for apologists to assert that the Nephites adhered to the later Aztec model, because that, in and of itself, would result in accepting that the Nephites were an immensely powerful polity for the time period.

In addition to considering the possible size of the Nephite army, this extended warfare in the BoM forces us to consider the possible size of the Lamanite army, as well. What polity was capable of the conquest warfare described in the BoM? What polity was capable of taking over not one, but several, polities of their vanquished neighbor?

Again from Alma 43:

51 Now, the Lamanites were more numerous, yea, by more than double the number of the Nephites; nevertheless, they were driven insomuch that they were gathered together in one body in the valley, upon the bank by the river Sidon.

52 Therefore the armies of Moroni encircled them about, yea, even on both sides of the river, for behold, on the east were the men of Lehi.

53 Therefore when Zerahemnah saw the men of Lehi on the east of the river Sidon, and the armies of Moroni on the west of the river Sidon, that they were encircled about by the Nephites, they were struck with terror.

54 Now Moroni, when he saw their terror, commanded his men that they should stop shedding their blood.

So weâ??re left wondering what kind of army Captain Moroni was commanding, that he was able to divide it into three effective parts, and needed citizens in one polity (Jershon) to move out of that polity to make room for the army.

[beastie]

In Alma 46 we read more of the conflict between the kingmen.

10 Yea, we see that Amalickiah, because he was a man of cunning device and a man of many flattering words, that he led away the hearts of many people to do wickedly; yea, and to seek to destroy the church of God, and to destroy the foundation of liberty which God had granted unto them, or which blessing God had sent upon the face of the land for the righteousâ?? sake.

11 And now it came to pass that when Moroni, who was the chief commander of the armies of the Nephites, had heard of these dissensions, he was angry with Amalickiah.

12 And it came to pass that he rent his coat; and he took a piece thereof, and wrote upon itâ??In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our childrenâ??and he fastened it upon the end of a pole.

13 And he fastened on his head-plate, and his breastplate, and his shields, and girded on his armor about his loins; and he took the pole, which had on the end thereof his rent coat, (and he called it the title of liberty) and he bowed himself to the earth, and he prayed mightily unto his God for the blessings of liberty to rest upon his brethren, so long as there should a band of Christians remain to possess the landâ??

14 For thus were all the true believers of Christ, who belonged to the church of God, called by those who did not belong to the church.

15 And those who did belong to the church were faithful; yea, all those who were true believers in Christ took upon them, gladly, the name of Christ, or Christians as they were called, because of their belief in Christ who should come.

16 And therefore, at this time, Moroni prayed that the cause of the Christians, and the freedom of the land might be favored.

17 And it came to pass that when he had poured out his soul to God, he named all the land which was south of the land Desolation, yea, and in fine, all the land, both on the north and on the southâ??A chosen land, and the land of liberty.

I bolded verse 17 because it is particularly important in that it specifically tells us that the area being discussed here is not limited to Zarahemla, but instead encompassed â??all the land, both on the north and on the southâ?.

From the same chapter:

28 And now it came to pass that when Moroni had said these words he went forth, and also sent forth in all the parts of the land where there were dissensions, and gathered together all the people who were desirous to maintain their liberty, to stand against Amalickiah and those who had dissented, who were called Amalickiahites.

29 And it came to pass that when Amalickiah saw that the people of Moroni were more numerous than the Amalickiahitesâ??and he also saw that his people were doubtful concerning the justice of the cause in which they had undertakenâ??therefore, fearing that he should not gain the point, he took those of his people who would and departed into the land of Nephi.

34 Now, Moroni being a man who was appointed by the chief judges and the voice of the people, therefore he had power according to his will with the armies of the Nephites, to establish and to exercise authority over them.

35 And it came to pass that whomsoever of the Amalickiahites that would not enter into a covenant to support the cause of freedom, that they might maintain a free government, he caused to be put to death; and there were but few who denied the covenant of freedom.

36 And it came to pass also, that he caused the title of liberty to be hoisted upon every tower which was in all the land, which was possessed by the Nephites; and thus Moroni planted the standard of liberty among the Nephites.

Two points here: earlier on this thread, Brant asserted that we donâ??t really know who Moroni was subject to. I already shared verses that clearly demonstrate he was subject to Pahoran, chief judge of Zarahemla. These verses demonstrate that the chief judges had the power and authority to allow Moroni to execute their own citizens who would not â??enter into the covenantâ?.

Again, this isnâ??t the Boy Scouts, who sets laws but has no power to enforce them. This is a social organization that not only set laws but had the power to enforce them, even using execution to do so.

Second, we are told in these verses that this fight with the kingmen is not limited to Zarahemla, but instead was spread throughout the land â??possessed by the Nephitesâ?. Remember, earlier we were told how a Nephite was defined: someone who accepted their ancient records â?? ie, Judaic in some form.

In Alma 47 we are again reminded that Lamanites and apostate Nephites still shared the same basic Lehite worldview:

35 And it came to pass that Amalickiah sought the favor of the queen, and took her unto him to wife; and thus by his fraud, and by the assistance of his cunning servants, he obtained the kingdom; yea, he was acknowledged king throughout all the land, among all the people of the Lamanites, who were composed of the Lamanites and the Lemuelites and the Ishmaelites, and all the dissenters of the Nephites, from the reign of Nephi down to the present time.

36 Now these dissenters, having the same instruction and the same information of the Nephites, yea, having been instructed in the same knowledge of the Lord, nevertheless, it is strange to relate, not long after their dissensions they became more hardened and impenitent, and more wild, wicked and ferocious than the Lamanitesâ??drinking in with the traditions of the Lamanites; giving way to indolence, and all manner of lasciviousness; yea, entirely forgetting the Lord their God.

This is why, in considering how widespread the Lehite worldview influence would have been felt in Mesoamerica, one cannot ignore the Lamanite or apostate Nephite side of the equation.

[beastie]

In Alma 49 we learn more information that helps us judge how powerful this polity was:

1 And now it came to pass in the *eleventh month of the nineteenth year, on the tenth day of the month, the armies of the Lamanites were seen approaching towards the land of Ammonihah.

2 And behold, the city had been rebuilt, and Moroni had stationed an army by the borders of the city, and they had cast up dirt round about to shield them from the arrows and the stones of the Lamanites; for behold, they fought with stones and with arrows.

12 Therefore they retreated into the wilderness, and took their camp and marched towards the land of aNoah, supposing that to be the next best place for them to come against the Nephites.

13 For they knew not that Moroni had fortified, or had built forts of security, for every city in all the land round about; therefore, they marched forward to the land of Noah with a firm determination; yea, their chief captains came forward and took an oath that they would destroy the people of that city.

This polity was powerful enough to simultaneously fortify locations spread throughout the region, and successfully defend them.

Amazingly, in Alma 50 we learn that, despite the fact that this conflict has been ongoing for five years, the Nephites still were able to build new cities:

12 Thus Moroni, with his armies, which did increase daily because of the assurance of protection which his works did bring forth unto them, did seek to cut off the strength and the power of the Lamanites from off the lands of their possessions, that they should have no power upon the lands of their possession.

13 And it came to pass that the Nephites began the foundation of a city, and they called the name of the city Moroni; and it was by the east sea; and it was on the south by the line of the possessions of the Lamanites.

14 And they also began a foundation for a city between the city of Moroni and the city of Aaron, joining the borders of Aaron and Moroni; and they called the name of the city, or the land, Nephihah.

15 And they also began in that same year to build many cities on the north, one in a particular manner which they called Lehi, which was in the north by the borders of the seashore.

16 And thus ended the twentieth year.

17 And in these prosperous circumstances were the people of Nephi in the *commencement of the twenty and first year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi.

What kind of Mesoamerican polity had this kind of power and strength? Not only were they able to maintain â??armiesâ? during this five year period, but they also had the wherewithal to actually build many new cities. Any Mesoamerican candidates out there?

In the same chapter we learn that this army was not only used to fight the Lamanites, but to control and keep peace among the Nephites:

28 And it came to pass that when the people of Morianton, who were led by a man whose name was Morianton, found that the people of Lehi had fled to the camp of Moroni, they were exceedingly fearful lest the army of Moroni should come upon them and destroy them.

29 Therefore, Morianton put it into their hearts that they should flee to the land which was northward, which was covered with alarge bodies of water, and take possession of the land which was bnorthward.

30 And behold, they would have carried this plan into effect, (which would have been a cause to have been lamented) but behold, Morianton being a man of much passion, therefore he was angry with one of his maid servants, and he fell upon her and beat her much.

31 And it came to pass that she fled, and came over to the camp of Moroni, and told Moroni all things concerning the matter, and also concerning their intentions to flee into the land northward.

32 Now behold, the people who were in the land Bountiful, or rather Moroni, feared that they would hearken to the words of Morianton and unite with his people, and thus he would obtain possession of those parts of the land, which would lay a foundation for serious consequences among the people of Nephi, yea, which consequences would lead to the overthrow of their liberty.

33 Therefore Moroni sent an army, with their camp, to head the people of Morianton, to stop their flight into the land northward.

34 And it came to pass that they did not head them until they had come to the borders of the land Desolation; and there they did head them, by the narrow pass which led by the sea into the land northward, yea, by the sea, on the west and on the east.

35 And it came to pass that the army which was sent by Moroni, which was led by a man whose name was Teancum, did meet the people of Morianton; and so stubborn were the people of Morianton, (being inspired by his wickedness and his flattering words) that a battle commenced between them, in the which Teancum did slay Morianton and defeat his army, and took them prisoners, and returned to the camp of Moroni. And thus ended the twenty and fourth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi.

36 And thus were the people of Morianton brought back. And upon their covenanting to keep the peace they were restored to the land of Morianton, and a union took place between them and the people of Lehi; and they were also restored to their lands.

Once again, this certainly doesnâ??t sound like the Boy Scouts â?? a polity who sets laws without any power to enforce them. It sounds very much like a polity that not only set laws, but enforced them through a formal hierarchy/process, even willing to use the military against their own civilians.

We hear more about the kingmen in Alma 51:

13 And it came to pass that when the men who were called king-men had heard that the Lamanites were coming down to battle against them, they were glad in their hearts; and they refused to take up arms, for they were so wroth with the chief judge, and also with the apeople of bliberty, that they would not take up arms to defend their country.

14 And it came to pass that when Moroni saw this, and also saw that the Lamanites were coming into the borders of the land, he was exceedingly wroth because of the astubbornness of those people whom he had labored with so much diligence to preserve; yea, he was exceedingly wroth; his soul was filled with anger against them.

15 And it came to pass that he sent a petition, with the voice of the people, unto the governor of the land, desiring that he should read it, and give him (Moroni) power to compel those dissenters to defend their country or to put them to death.

16 For it was his first care to put an end to such contentions and dissensions among the people; for behold, this had been hitherto a cause of all their destruction. And it came to pass that it was granted according to the voice of the people.

17 And it came to pass that Moroni commanded that his army should go against those king-men, to pull down their pride and their nobility and level them with the earth, or they should take up arms and support the cause of liberty.

18 And it came to pass that the armies did march forth against them; and they did pull down their pride and their nobility, insomuch that as they did lift their weapons of war to fight against the men of Moroni they were hewn down and leveled to the earth.

19 And it came to pass that there were four thousand of those dissenters who were hewn down by the sword; and those of their leaders who were not slain in battle were taken and cast into prison, for there was no time for their trials at this period.

20 And the remainder of those dissenters, rather than be smitten down to the earth by the sword, yielded to the standard of liberty, and were compelled to hoist the title of liberty upon their towers, and in their cities, and to take up arms in defence of their country.

21 And thus Moroni put an end to those king-men, that there were not any known by the appellation of king-men; and thus he put an end to the stubbornness and the pride of those people who professed the blood of nobility; but they were brought down to humble themselves like unto their brethren, and to fight valiantly for their freedom from bondage.

22 Behold, it came to pass that while Moroni was thus breaking down the wars and contentions among his own people, and subjecting them to peace and civilization, and making regulations to prepare for war against the Lamanites, behold, the Lamanites had come into the land of Moroni, which was in the borders by the seashore.

As has already been pointed out, this is a clear example of the military, working in conjunction with the legal system, of course, using force to control its own citizens. In addition, the bolded verse 20 demonstrates that this took place in several â??citiesâ?.

In the same chapter:

23 And it came to pass that the Nephites were not sufficiently strong in the city of Moroni; therefore Amalickiah did drive them, slaying many. And it came to pass that Amalickiah took possession of the city, yea, possession of all their fortifications.

24 And those who fled out of the city of Moroni came to the city of Nephihah; and also the people of the city of Lehi gathered themselves together, and made preparations and were ready to receive the Lamanites to battle.

25 But it came to pass that Amalickiah would not suffer the Lamanites to go against the city of Nephihah to battle, but kept them down by the seashore, leaving men in every city to maintain and defend it.

26 And thus he went on, taking possession of many cities, the city of Nephihah, and the city of Lehi, and the city of Morianton, and the city of Omner, and the city of Gid, and the city of Mulek, all of which were on the east borders by the seashore.

27 And thus had the Lamanites obtained, by the cunning of Amalickiah, so many cities, by their numberless hosts, all of which were strongly fortified after the manner of the fortifications of Moroni; all of which afforded strongholds for the Lamanites.

28 And it came to pass that they marched to the borders of the land Bountiful, driving the Nephites before them and slaying many.

29 But it came to pass that they were met by Teancum, who had aslain Morianton and had headed his people in his flight.

30 And it came to pass that he headed Amalickiah also, as he was marching forth with his numerous army that he might take possession of the land Bountiful, and also the land northward.

31 But behold he met with a disappointment by being repulsed by Teancum and his men, for they were great warriors; for every man of Teancum did exceed the Lamanites in their strength and in their skill of war, insomuch that they did gain advantage over the Lamanites.

Once again weâ??re forced to wonder what kind of Mesoamerican candidate could be presented for this powerful Lamanite polity? It has to be a polity that had the power and military might that enabled them to actually take possession of at least seven polities, leave behind enough men to defend them, and still had the military might to even try to take possession of yet another polity.

Any Mesoamerican candidates out there?? Iâ??d love to hear the names of some polities in ancient Mesoamerica, in this time period, that had this kind of power. And keep in mind that the BoM informs us repeatedly that even the Lamanites and apostate Nephites still adhere to a form of Judaism. At the risk of repeating myself, I need to point out that this means that not only do we have to consider the existence of the Nephite influence, but the Lamanite influence as well.

This situation continues in chapter 52:

1 And now, it came to pass in the *twenty and sixth year of the reign of the judges over the people of Nephi, behold, when the Lamanites awoke on the first morning of the first month, behold, they found Amalickiah was dead in his own tent; and they also saw that Teancum was ready to give them battle on that day.

2 And now, when the Lamanites saw this they were affrighted; and they abandoned their design in marching into the land northward, and retreated with all their army into the city of Mulek, and sought protection in their fortifications.

3 And it came to pass that the brother of Amalickiah was appointed king over the people; and his name was Ammoron; thus king Ammoron, the brother of king Amalickiah, was appointed to reign in his stead.

4 And it came to pass that he did command that his people should maintain those cities, which they had taken by the shedding of blood; for they had not taken any cities save they had lost much blood.

5 And now, Teancum saw that the Lamanites were determined to maintain those cities which they had taken, and those parts of the land which they had obtained possession of; and also seeing the enormity of their number, Teancum thought it was not expedient that he should attempt to attack them in their forts.

6 But he kept his men round about, as if making preparations for war; yea, and truly he was preparing to defend himself against them, by casting up walls round about and preparing places of resort.

7 And it came to pass that he kept thus preparing for war until Moroni had sent a large number of men to strengthen his army.

8 And Moroni also sent orders unto him that he should retain all the prisoners who fell into his hands; for as the Lamanites had taken many prisoners, that he should retain all the prisoners of the Lamanites as a ransom for those whom the Lamanites had taken.

So the Lamanite polity was not only powerful enough to take possession of at least seven Nephite polities, but they had the might to defend those same polities for several years, keeping them in their possession.

And, of course, during these years, the Nephites maintained their army. Just how long does an army have to be maintained before it can be considered a standing army?

Now, keep in mind that the Nephite polity has been maintaining an army for years, and has been keeping Lamanite hostages for years, and yet still has the power to finally defeat the Lamanties:

23 And it came to pass that the armies of the Lamanites did march forth against Teancum, supposing by their numbers to overpower Teancum because of the smallness of his numbers. And as Teancum saw the armies of the Lamanites coming out against him he began to retreat down by the seashore, northward.

24 And it came to pass that when the Lamanites saw that he began to flee, they took courage and pursued them with vigor. And while Teancum was thus leading away the Lamanites who were pursuing them in vain, behold, Moroni commanded that a part of his army who were with him should march forth into the city, and take possession of it.

25 And thus they did, and slew all those who had been left to protect the city, yea, all those who would not yield up their weapons of war.

26 And thus Moroni had obtained possession of the city Mulek with a part of his army, while he marched with the remainder to meet the Lamanites when they should return from the pursuit of Teancum.

27 And it came to pass that the Lamanites did pursue Teancum until they came near the city Bountiful, and then they were met by Lehi and a small army, which had been left to protect the city Bountiful.

28 And now behold, when the chief captains of the Lamanites had beheld Lehi with his army coming against them, they fled in much confusion, lest perhaps they should not obtain the city Mulek before Lehi should overtake them; for they were wearied because of their march, and the men of Lehi were fresh.

29 Now the Lamanites did not know that Moroni had been in their rear with his army; and all they feared was Lehi and his men.

30 Now Lehi was not desirous to overtake them till they should meet Moroni and his army.

31 And it came to pass that before the Lamanites had retreated far they were surrounded by the Nephites, by the men of Moroni on one hand, and the men of Lehi on the other, all of whom were fresh and full of strength; but the Lamanites were wearied because of their long march.

32 And Moroni commanded his men that they should fall upon them until they had given up their weapons of war.

This is also another example of the army being effectively divided. Just how big of an armed force are we talking about here?

Another interesting tidbit about the Lamanite army â?? apparently it was so large that the rear could be attacked unnoticed by the leaders, since they were busy dealing with Lehiâ??s army.

We also learn at the end of this chapter that:

40 And now the number of prisoners who were taken exceeded more than the number of those who had been slain, yea, more than those who had been slain on both sides.

In verse 53 we see that the Nephites had not only the power to keep those prisoners, but also to compel them to work:

1 And it came to pass that they did set guards over the prisoners of the Lamanites, and did compel them to go forth and bury their dead, yea, and also the dead of the Nephites who were slain; and Moroni placed men over them to guard them while they should perform their labors.

These are the sort of small details that must be considering in pondering what kind of polity would have that sort of power and strength.

In the same chapter, we read:

2 And aMoroni went to the city of Mulek with Lehi, and took command of the city and gave it unto Lehi. Now behold, this Lehi was a man who had been with Moroni in the more part of all his battles; and he was a man like unto Moroni, and they rejoiced in each otherâ??s safety; yea, they were beloved by each other, and also beloved by all the people of Nephi.

3 And it came to pass that after the Lamanites had finished burying their dead and also the dead of the Nephites, they were marched back into the land Bountiful; and Teancum, by the orders of Moroni, caused that they should commence laboring in digging a ditch round about the land, or the city, Bountiful.

4 And he caused that they should build a breastwork of timbers upon the inner bank of the ditch; and they cast up dirt out of the ditch against the breastwork of timbers; and thus they did cause the Lamanites to labor until they had encircled the city of Bountiful round about with a strong wall of timbers and earth, to an exceeding height.

5 And this city became an exceeding stronghold ever after; and in this city they did guard the prisoners of the Lamanites; yea, even within a wall which they had caused them to build with their own hands. Now Moroni was compelled to cause the Lamanites to labor, because it was easy to guard them while at their labor; and he desired all his forces when he should make an attack upon the Lamanites.

6 And it came to pass that Moroni had thus gained a victory over one of the greatest of the armies of the Lamanites, and had obtained possession of the city of Mulek, which was one of the strongest holds of the Lamanites in the land of Nephi; and thus he had also built a stronghold to retain his prisoners.

7 And it came to pass that he did no more attempt a battle with the Lamanites in that year, but he did employ his men in preparing for war, yea, and in making fortifications to guard against the Lamanites, yea, and also delivering their women and their children from famine and affliction, and providing food for their armies.

So after all these years of war, the Nephites still had the power to guard such a large group of prisoners that an entire city became their prison, and the Nephites had the power to force massive labor from those prisoners.

And, at the same time, they were still preparing for war, WHILE providing food for armies AND civilians.

Once again, what Mesoamerican polity could be the candidate for such a powerful polity? Any candidates? Any? Just one?

Even more amazingly, the Lamanites, despite losing enough prisoners to populate a city, still had the power to take possession of more Nephite cities!!

8 And now it came to pass that the armies of the Lamanites, on the west sea, south, while in the absence of Moroni on account of some intrigue amongst the Nephites, which caused dissensions amongst them, had gained some ground over the Nephites, yea, insomuch that they had obtained possession of a number of their cities in that part of the land.

Candidates?

[Mortal Man]

This is the first instance I have seen of calling the Palmyra hill "Cumorah".

June 1834, Joseph declares that Zelph fought for "the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the hill Cumorah, or eastern sea, to the Rocky Mountains." -- RSR p. 241

[Anijen]

June 1834, Joseph declares that Zelph fought for "the great prophet Onandagus, who was known from the hill Cumorah, or eastern sea, to the Rocky Mountains." -- RSR p. 241

John Clark says that Joseph changed his view in 1842 to north of the Isthmus of Darian. You can see it in this you tube video

.

about the 0:46 mark

[Billy]

1. Any ancient manuscript evidence prior to Joseph Smith

2. Any known cities from the Book of Mormon that correspond to cities in the Americas?

3. Any archeological evidence around the Hill Cumorah in New York?

4. Any evidence of the Lamanites or Nephites in archeological finds?

So after all these posts, did we nail down for sure any of the above issues?

[e=mc2]

Thanks, Noel. At this point I would say the chances of me writing a book on this topic is next to zero, but you never know. The time Iâ??ve invested in my website is probably the limit of my altruism motivated by a sense of social obligation â?? ie, sharing information I once would have found helpful.

BTW, if Brant ever does publish one text at a more reasonable price, I would definitely buy it â?? and probably write a review for my website.

It is a reasonable enough price that even a poor white man such as myself can afford it. Granted it took me a bit to save up for it, but its worth absolutely every farthing! Sensational commentary.