Jump to content

Why so much oppostion, disgust for polygamy?


Truth

Recommended Posts

It seems that every time a polygamy thread is made that so many react to it as digusting, awful, wrong, or whatever else you want to call it. If you don't think that Joseph was a prophet, I can see you not agreeing with it, but if he was, what is the problem.

If it is of God, it is good. When God commands it, it is good, and there is nothing wrong with it. If practiced without God's command, then you should not. God will not ask us to do something we are unable to do. It was good when Abraham and others were commanded, as it was in this last dispensation when it was commanded of Joseph.

Not all were asked to do this, some would not be able to handle it, or it was not needed of them, but of those of whom it was commanded, it was good. Are there those to be denied the sealing and eternal blessings because some mortals do not like the practice? Yes, I have read the arguments regarding Joseph on this and frankly find the arguments against him to be nonsense.

If a man is asked to take an additional wife in the future (I believe that there will be polygamy again, that it is an eternal principle), and his wife agrees and it is of God, and it is good, so what's the problem? Otherwise, it is a moot point.

If it is not something that someone wants, I suppose the Lord will let it go, if it is ever asked. My wife and I talked about it before and are willing to do whatever is asked, if it should so be. I just fail to see how people can find wrong in something that the Lord commanded, which is wrong in finding such wrong, to me.

Link to comment

First things first...

There seems to be a great discrepency about whether or not JS actually had sexual relations with his wives. Many apologists seem to think that the sealings were for eternity only and that no sex was involved.

IMO, the evidence is stacked against that argument.

The fact that he hid it for so long, that Emma got so angry about it, the threats by an angel to destroy him if he didn't practice it, the "married in very deed" comment, comments by others that certain kids were thought to be JS' (Josephina, I think), others around JS were practicing polygamy and THEY were having sexual relations, so why WOULDN'T JS, BY had sex with his wives...did I miss any?

Truth, what do you believe?

Link to comment

I think that there are two aspects to the horror people react with when polygamy comes on topic.

1. Many people feel that polygamy/marriage is all about sex, and that sex turns women into sex-objects and dehumanizes them. I think that this is partly because of our culture's over emphasis on sex. Having recently celebrated my 28th year of marriage, I know that marriage is not all about sex, at least marriage that lasts isn't. I think that polygamy that lasts must not be sex-centered either, but finding that balance would scare me to death and I have no desire to try to do it.

2. If a man suggests that polygamy isn't bad, he is presumed guilty of sexual fantasies (see 1 above). To avoid that stigma, a man today finds it much easier to react with horror to the whole concept of polygamy.

Just the way I see it, your mileage may vary.

-Ed

edited to replace a misplaced word.

Link to comment

I think sour feelings surround this because it was not done honestly from the begining to the ending. From the begining it was secrete- no one was told of it because the leaders thought that no one would properly understand it. And then the way in which this principle left the Church- to many people it looks like it left because of political pressure. Leaving the question- why would God waste the principle like that? Why would He scar so many families over plural marriage.

These sour feelings are based on more than just the sexual aspects of it. This was a family thing- not just a mere sexual outlet.

From its inception to its demise, real people have been affected deeply by it.

And just simply excusing the whole priciple saying it was a test from God to see if His people would do all things He asked (until it put the Church in jeapordy) seems just as bad as the excuse of why it was started in secrete (that no on would understand it properly).

Personally the whole thing, to me, seemed void of God's righteousness (as I see God's righteousness). I think it is still a question left unanswered.

If it was a legitimate principle- why doesnt God initiate the principle again- cant Utah pass a plural marriage law? couldnt it be practiced somewhere in the world??

If it was not a legitimate revelation then the Church should realistically open that conversation up and discuss the possibility.

BTW this is what I have on

The ending of polygamy-

(you tell me there is no reason for people to think it left by political pressure)

1856: The Republican Party

Link to comment
Just another thought...

Do you have any animosity/disgust towards the FLDS and their polygamist practices?

Only if there is abuse happening would I condemn it, otherwise I see polygamy as much better than men getting women pregnant and then not supporting them and their children.

I am more upset about them kicking out teenage males than in whether a man has more than one wife. I see that as abandonment, parents have a responsibility to raise their children, good or bad at least til they are 18. I condemn this action completly.

Now if the allegations of abuse prove to be true, then I would definatly condemn it. Satan always takes Gods pure principles and perverts them to his own ends.

I have no desire to take a 2nd wife, however if I believed God commanded it, I may hesitate, but I would not disobey.

Link to comment
Just another thought...

Do you have any animosity/disgust towards the FLDS and their polygamist practices?

Only if there is abuse happening would I condemn it, otherwise I see polygamy as much better than men getting women pregnant and then not supporting them and their children.

I am more upset about them kicking out teenage males than in whether a man has more than one wife. I see that as abandonment, parents have a responsibility to raise their children, good or bad at least til they are 18. I condemn this action completly.

Now if the allegations of abuse prove to be true, then I would definatly condemn it. Satan always takes Gods pure principles and perverts them to his own ends.

I have no desire to take a 2nd wife, however if I believed God commanded it, I may hesitate, but I would not disobey.

Don't you think that ANY polygamist society would eventually have to start throwing out teenage boys? As time goes on the ratio of women to men should start approaching 50:50.

If a polygamist community is to remain polygamist, either women will need to be introduced from the outside or some men will be kicked out. I guess there could be some kind of social status that allowed men to stay in the community, but not marry. Maybe when an older polygamist died, the younger men would fight to see who would take his wives?

Perhaps God has solutions for these problems? Do you happen to know what they are? (Serious questions, not being a smart alek...)

Link to comment
Just another thought...

Do you have any animosity/disgust towards the FLDS and their polygamist practices?

Only if there is abuse happening would I condemn it, otherwise I see polygamy as much better than men getting women pregnant and then not supporting them and their children.

I am more upset about them kicking out teenage males than in whether a man has more than one wife. I see that as abandonment, parents have a responsibility to raise their children, good or bad at least til they are 18. I condemn this action completly.

Now if the allegations of abuse prove to be true, then I would definatly condemn it. Satan always takes Gods pure principles and perverts them to his own ends.

I have no desire to take a 2nd wife, however if I believed God commanded it, I may hesitate, but I would not disobey.

Don't you think that ANY polygamist society would eventually have to start throwing out teenage boys? As time goes on the ratio of women to men should start approaching 50:50.

If a polygamist community is to remain polygamist, either women will need to be introduced from the outside or some men will be kicked out. I guess there could be some kind of social status that allowed men to stay in the community, but not marry. Maybe when an older polygamist died, the younger men would fight to see who would take his wives?

Perhaps God has solutions for these problems? Do you happen to know what they are? (Serious questions, not being a smart alek...)

Sure,

You send them out into the world to find wives, then they bring them back to the fold. It's called missionary work :P

J/K ... No really J/K

-Ed

Link to comment

I guess most people do equate polygamy with sex. If anyone was willing to participate based on sex, then they would never have to worry about being asked to practice it.

Scottie, I could care less whether there was a sexual relationship or any other kind of marital relationship, it matters not one whit. I know the Jospeh is a prophet, and I still think that much of it is lies told to discredit him. I don't remember who posted it, but cited as evidence of hearsay from Emma, who was already bitter, years after the fact by an apostate. I have yet to see stacked evidence against Joseph, and even if there was, it still does not alter his prophetic calling.

Look at Jonah, he ran when the Lord called him. He thought it was terrible that the Lord spared the people, but Jonah was still a prophet.

Tubaloth, my thinking on this comes from the scripture in Isaiah. Also, from the fact that there are numerous women sealed to one man, what makes those sealings not in force? How does that make them different than being sealed to just one woman? It doesn't.

BTW, I don't care about the FLDS, I am speaking strictly of it in regards to LDS, as I am LDS and know the LDS Church to be true. To me, what the FLDS do is a moot point.

Link to comment
I could care less whether there was a sexual relationship or any other kind of marital relationship, it matters not one whit.

I realize that most LDS don't care, however, that one little issue is a HUGE factor for MANY that have a problem with polygamy.

To me, it is one of the deciding factors as to whether JS was abusing his so called prophetic calling to gain free sexual licence using threats of damnation and destruction, or whether he was a pure prophet doing mere sealing to ensure the salvation of a few women.

That is another couple of questions to add to my list...

If it were truly non-sexual, why weren't ALL LDS women sealed to him?

Seems like a mere non-sexual sealing wouldn't be much of a test of faith. Why all the need for prayer and acceptance of the practice if were non-sexual?

Link to comment

so when muslims are comanded by god (they claim they are) to bomb things should be a good thing also?

truth said youa nd your wife will obey everything they are comanded...thats dangerous...

being honest...taking away the sex thing...do you lds women mind to share the love of your husband with other women???? my girlfriend is lds and she as well as her mother haver great issues with this topic...

i think its just a good reason to DOUBT JS or any other prophet pf any religion that commands things that people feel are bad...just my point of view..

and again the phrase "those who believe absurdities can commit atrocities"

Link to comment
Why so much oppostion, disgust for polygamy?

The disgust exists because it is practiced in the name of God. Because of the God mandate, there will be those who are unwilling participants, and there will be rational persons that refuse to ever believe that God could or would mandate our marital situations at the expense of one's inner convictions on the matter of polygamy. Take God out of the equation (which is really just a man speaking) and it is just another lifestyle choice that consenting adults may choose to live or not.

Link to comment
Why so much oppostion, disgust for polygamy?

The disgust exists because it is practiced in the name of God. Because of the God mandate, there will be those who are unwilling participants, and there will be rational persons that refuse to ever believe that God could or would mandate our marital situations at the expense of one's inner convictions on the matter of polygamy. Take God out of the equation (which is really just a man speaking on his/her behalf) and it is just another lifestyle choice that consenting adults may choose to live or not.

I agree. How many threats are in D&C 132?

Link to comment
I guess most people do equate polygamy with sex.

I equate polygamy with the subjugation of women. Having mulitiple wives becomes a sign of wealth and status. Available women become a scare commodity which must be bartered for, and acquired at an early age, lest they gain the capacity to think and decide for themselves.

How many wives did BY have. Certainly more than was needed to satisfy his lust. No, polygamy is as much, if not more about power and status as it is sex. But that power comes at the expense of the dignity and respect for the women.

Link to comment

> It seems that every time a polygamy thread is made that so many react to it as digusting, awful, wrong, or whatever else you want to call it.

==Here's my take: I think there is an odd coalition amongst the anti-polygamy crowd. Religionists object to polygamy either because they think it is doctrinally/morally repugnant, and/or because much of polygamy in its present form is accompanied by poverty and child abuse (child brides, that is). Secularists, I think, don't really care about polygamy, in and of itself, as a religious or moral precept. However, they agree that present-day polygamy's attendant poverty and child abuse (and, perhaps, some secularists find it oppressive to women) make it worth fighting.

> If you don't think that Joseph was a prophet, I can see you not agreeing with it, but if he was, what is the problem.

==I think that a lot of folks who actively oppose polygamy don't care one or another about Joseph Smith's status as a prophet. Rather, there are public policy arguments at play and controlling.

> If it is of God, it is good.

==That's a mighty big "if."

-Smac

Link to comment

So did Abraham not practice it in the name of God? Did he just take it upon himself?

If people do not want to participate, they do not have to.

I don't care about Muslims on this point, that is a silly argument, this is not about Islam, this is about LDS. As I said, I am LDS, and know this to be the true church, Islam has no place in the discussion.

Jaybear, thanks for you pov, but you are wrong, that is unless that is the person's focus, and like I said, if it is, then you are wrong and it will not be an issue for you.

smac, just quoting from the BoM.

Link to comment

Scottie they have not substantiated Josephine as Joseph Smith's daughter yet. The DNA testing may be futile & ongoing. I am not satisfied they have any hope of ever establishing her parentage as Joseph Smith. But in the zeal to try pin her on Joseph Smith they will spend a fortune. I see no evidence they will get this DNA testing done in my lifetime. Instead of admitting she could have been considered by her mother Sylvia Joseph's adopted offspring people place geat stock in her claim. There's no hard evidence she was Josephs child & her qlaim is not the unquestionable one people make out it to be.

I also have see no evidence only historical rumor mongering about mythical purported children. These stories were made up in Utah because they hard a hard time explaining how a man could run around Emma's back with 33 women & have no children. If Joseph Smith was a promiscous man they should have clear cut evidence of children not this struggle to find something that would pin a child of Joseph Smith. Emma was pregnant eight times with Joseph's kids. I I have a hard time believing Joseph Smith was a promiscuous man. If an earthly polygamist he was quite restrained as a polygamist.

The book Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy adequately defends Joseph Smith of several key polygamy charges. They feel the stories about Emma were cooked up to make Emma look bad & implicate Joseph Smith in polygamy. The link to the online book is on the top of the page as JSFP. I also suggest the Nancy Rigdon article is quite informative. The previous article was refuting Martha Brothertons claim.

Did you know James Whitehead one of Joseph's secretary's in Nauvoo was shown the original of D.&C. 132 by Bishop Whitney? Under oath in the Temple Lot case he said the document published in 1852 had been altered with to implicate Joseph Smith in earthly polygamy. The original of D.&C. 132 has been rumored to have been destroyed.

Most of the documents implicating Joseph in polygamy may be read as implicating Joseph Smith in "agreements, or associations for worlds to come." It's untrue that they prove he was practicing earthly polygamy. The big document I read implicating Joseph in some earthly polygamy is William Claytons diaries. I have not seen the original of the document, nor do I know for sure the document really dates from Nauvoo. He could have edited an altered copy in Utah because the original did not say what he said they did. The document gets cited from all the time but do we really know it's an authentic unaltered source?

I admit the above source may be read as authentic by some including myself but am open to the idea it might have been revised to include fictional insertions at a later date.

William Laws Nauvoo diary is another source I saw & though it implecates Joseph Smith in polygamy it may have been trudged up to be used as evidence against Joseph Smith in court. William Law may have been planning to publish it in a future edition of the Expositor.

Jerald & Sandra Tanner Abuse citations from the Temple Lot Case In Mormonism shadow or Reality? The decision which they & Todd Comptom won't cite declared Joseph Smith not guilty. An example of how this effects his book is Joseph Noble said under oath Joseph Smith & Louisa Beaman had a honeymoon in 1841. Judge

John F. Phillips knocked down such testimony in his decision. The reprint of the Temple Lot Case is reprinted by the Restoration Book Store as well. The book Fundemental Difference by Russel F. Ralston also reprints the decision & points out legal problems with the polygamy claim's & Joseph Smith.

Legally the claims don't stand up in court. I saw evidence Joseph Smith was busy on one of the days the Partridge sisters claimed to marry Joseph? The book Joseph Smith Who Was He? Did He Teach or Practice Polygamy demonstates they perjured themselves. The dates for these marriages lack dates & places. Statements in Nauvoo were signed by Eliza R. Snow denying Joseph's polygamy in Nauvoo by her & others. When Judge Phillips was presented with the contradictory statements under U.S. law he had to treat it as evidence of later perjury.

Not meaning to demean the key purported wives. Even the Judge in the case thought in uncharitable to accuse LDS leaders, men. or women as lying. But he had to decide on the basis of law whether the women could be categorized as Joseph Smith's wives. There was no basis under U.S. law to grant the women legal status as Joseph Smith's wives.

Whe tells you these extra problems among anti-Mormons, or so called popular experts on Joseph Smith's polygamy? When I discovered the experts were leaving facts out I knew them mostly unqualified to tell me what I needed to believe about Joseph Smith & polygamy.

Perhaps the wives had falsely claimed sexuality between themselves & Joseph Smith in Utah. Contrary to Todd Comptom Melissa Lott Willis interview Joseoh Smith had done with her devestated her claim of sexuality in the Temple Lot case. How do you know the women "roomed" with Joseph accept on their sayso? I read the original interview myself & felt Todd Comptom altered the document in order to weaken his conclusion.

Sincerely,

Dale

Link to comment
So did Abraham not practice it in the name of God?  Did he just take it upon himself?

Just because someone in the Bible practiced polygamy does not mean that every Tom, **** and Harry can claim to receive revelation that THEY can now practice it. Same goes with JS. Just because he claimed to get revelation, does not mean he did. To me, the evidence that I listed above leads me to believe that he did it for all the wrong reasons.

If people do not want to participate, they do not have to.

Sure, if they want to be destroyed and/or go to hell. What kind of an option is that??

I don't care about Muslims on this point, that is a silly argument, this is not about Islam, this is about LDS.  As I said, I am LDS, and know this to be the true church, Islam has no place in the discussion.

Is this thread meant for only those that believe JS was a prophet? Is the question why faithful LDS think it is disgusting, or why anybody might find it disgusting? If it is for anybody, then I think this point is valid. Anybody can claim to do any disgusting act in the name of God. Does that make it right?

Link to comment

jaybear-

But that power comes at the expense of the dignity and respect for the women.

you forgot-

and their children.

which gives rise to other problems-

where are the women who are wiling to marry into polygamy?

i wouldnt think there would be too many women who would agree to this type of family arrangments- how many women would it take to keep the gene-pool from shrinking??

it is such an ever-increasing number of children with a fairly stable number of women not wanting to be married like that....... would it ever be off set?

how healthy is that?

><> robin

Link to comment
Scottie they have not substantiated Josephine as Joseph Smith's daughter yet. The DNA testing may be futile & ongoing. I am not satisfied they have any hope of ever establishing her parentage as Joseph Smith. But in the zeal to try pin her on Joseph Smith they will spend a fortune. I see no evidence they will get this DNA testing done in my lifetime. Instead of admitting she could have been considered by her mother Sylvia Joseph's adopted offspring people place geat stock in her claim. There's no hard evidence she was Josephs child & her qlaim is not the unquestionable one people make out it to be.

Isn't the claim itself enough? You seem to insinuate that this claim is taken out of context. Could you clarify more?

I also have see no evidence only historical rumor mongering about mythical purported children. These stories were made up in Utah because they hard a hard time explaining how a man could run around Emma's back with 33 women & have no children. If Joseph Smith was a promiscous man they should have clear cut evidence of children not this struggle to find something that would pin a child of Joseph Smith. Emma was pregnant eight times with Joseph's kids. I I have a hard time believing Joseph Smith was a promiscuous man. If an earthly polygamist he was quite restrained as a polygamist.

Oh puhleeeeze!!! JS didn't have sex cause there were no kids??? This is BY FAR the weakest stretch of an argument I can imagine. Did you know that a sexual encounter will not ALWAYS produce a child?? There are even ways to actively avoid creating a child if you don't want to produce one. Even in the early 1800's, I'm pretty sure they knew the requirements to create a kid and how to circumvent it.

The book Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy adequately defends Joseph Smith of several key polygamy charges. http://www.restorationbookstore.org They feel the stories about Emma were cooked up to make Emma look bad & implicate Joseph Smith in polygamy. The link to the online book is on the top of the page as JSFP. I also suggest the Nancy Rigdon article is quite informative. The previous article was refuting Martha Brothertons claim.

I will look into this. Thanks for the link.

Did you know James Whitehead one of Joseph's secretary's in Nauvoo was shown the original of D.&C. 132 by Bishop Whitney? Under oath in the Temple Lot case he said the document published in 1852 had been altered with to implicate Joseph Smith in earthly polygamy. The original of D.&C. 132 has been rumored to have been destroyed.

So, now you are saying that I can't even believe the canonized scriptures?!?! I am truely dumbfounded...I don't know what to say. :P

What other scriptures should we discredit?

Most of the documents implicating Joseph in polygamy may be read as implicating  Joseph Smith in "agreements, or associations for worlds to come." It's untrue that they prove he was practicing earthly polygamy. The big document I read implicating Joseph in some earthly polygamy is William Claytons diaries. I have not seen the original of the document, nor do I know for sure the document really dates from Nauvoo. He could have edited an altered copy in Utah because the original did not say what he said they did.  The document gets cited from all the time but do we really know it's an authentic unaltered source?

I agree there is no "PROOF" that he had sex. I think there is substantial evidence.

Not meaning to demean the key purported wives. Even the Judge in the case thought in uncharitable to accuse LDS leaders, men. or women as lying. But he had to decide on the basis of law whether the women could be categorized as Joseph Smith's wives. There was no basis under U.S. law to grant the women legal status as Joseph Smith's wives.

Of course they weren't wives in the eyes of the law. So, are we changing it to adultery instead of polygamy?

Whe tells you these extra problems among anti-Mormons, or so called popular experts on Joseph Smith's polygamy? When I discovered the experts were leaving facts out I knew them mostly unqualified to tell me what I needed to believe about Joseph Smith & polygamy.

Surprising, but I have come up with most of these problems all by myself with my puny little brain.

Perhaps the wives had falsely claimed sexuality between themselves in Utah. Contrary to Todd Comptom Melissa Lott Willis interview Joseoh Smith had done with her devestated her claim in the Temple Lot case. How do you know the women "roomed" with Joseph accept on their sayso?

I don't understand the question here...could you rephrase?

Link to comment

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...