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"Joseph Smith and polygamy..."


John Corrill

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It may not have bothered you, but it has bothered quite a few I know.

Zeitgeist

Good! I don't see anything wrong with members of the Church having feelings of aversion towards plural marriage seeing as it is something the Saints are not to enter into.

Ever study the Old Testament in depth my friend? I was bothered by what I read therein, very depressed. Inactive over it for a number of months actually. You won't find a "loving God" within the pages of the Old Testament.

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This is a long introduction to what I want to say. I hope you bear with me.

I heard this story told in a stake conference once. (It may or may not be true, but is an excellent story.) When Arabian horses are being trained, the most important thing they learn is to answer the call of their master. When the training is complete, the horses are penned up without water, but in sight and smell of water. They are kept in the pen until they are nearly crazed with thirst. Then the gate is opened and they are allowed to rush to the water. Just before they reach it, the master calls. The animals who turn away from the water to answer the call of the master, against every instinct for self-preservation, are kept and prized. The ones who ignore the call are destroyed. They are worthless.

Now: I want to answer the call when it comes. There may be many things that are put in my way, as thirst in the story above. I want to be able to answer the call of the Master, even though it may be very difficult. Who knows what may be the thing that stands between us and the Master?

Joseph Smith practiced the doctrines revealed through him and required of others. Should this be a shock? How well or how perfectly he did, or Emma did, is a matter between him and God. It isn't my business. We don't know how hard this was at that time. We cannot judge Joseph or anyone else.

Anyone who judges, who says "I won't accept the Church because of this" or "I will leave the Church because of this" is the horse who ran to the water and ignored the Master's call.

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Yes the Old Testament bothered me heck of a lot. When I was young I rationalized it was the philosophies of men that had crept in. After all it was true only as far as it was translated correctly. Later during my mission I reread the Bible. I was bothered by a lot of what I read. I tried to put it on the back burner, figuring that in time I would come to understand why murder and mayhem were constant orders from God. I actually abandoned belief in the Bible my first semester in college after studying a little history.

Zeitgeist

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The animals who turn away from the water to answer the call of the master, against every instinct for self-preservation, are kept and prized. The ones who ignore the call are destroyed. They are worthless.

Now: I want to answer the call when it comes.

Did the storyteller also explain how sometimes the horses will hear the voices of other men and think they're hearing the voice of the master, and do things they aren't supposed to? Or sometimes, the master will give one instruction, but the horses will misunderstand, and do something different?

And sometimes, the master will just leave the horses alone, and let them do what they want. In situations such as these, if we are watching the horses, should we assume that everything they are doing was commanded by their master?

(It may or may not be true, but is an excellent story.)

Your story has two things in common with the Book of Mormon:

Both stories may or may not be true, but are excellent.

Both stories have horses.

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Did that cut a little close to the quick, Cinepro, so that you had abandon civil dialogue and resort to insults?

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Did that cut a little close to the quick, Cinepro, so that you had abandon civil dialogue and resort to insults?

It is an interesting story, and it didn't "cut" at all. I, too, strive to be obedient to the voice of God.

I was merely commenting on its applicability to the subject at hand, as well as the variation among what some may interpret as "the voice of God", where others might find the same experience to have a different meaning. It is this variation in understanding that compels me to admit that there are, in fact, some things God could ask me to do that I would refuse.

I am curious how you would relate to the story differently if it weren't true? You must have felt something when the story was told, or you wouldn't have remembered it. Was that "something" the spirit? And was the spirit telling you the story was factually true? Or was it something else? Is there any way for you to tell whether the story is factually true just from your feelings?

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Cinepro, I don't think there needs to have been an actual event, where a specific man trained a specific horse, and gave it that specific test. Jesus taught many things in parables, and I don't know if we would ask that the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15) be of a particular, literal, exist in the physical world man and his two sons before we would take a lesson from it. It was the lesson that was important. That's how I feel about the story of the Arabian horse.

If I was unclear, let me state, more clealry how I see this story relates to the thread we have been discussing. We were sent here with a responsbility to accept truth when we found it. As we accept truth, we are given more. Line upon line, precept upon precept. Since there is opposition in all things, we are having things thrown in our way to derail us from this search for truth. While the underlying force is the adversary, he has minions who help him, whether they are aware of why they are behaving as they do or not.

One of the strategies is to throw doubt and cast aspersions on the character and mission of the prophets. I do not believe that Joseph Smith sinned with regard to the doctrine of eternal marriage. People who think he might have, if they were honest with themselves, would have to admit that they don't know enough about it to make such a judgement. Whatever happened, finished happening over 260 years ago. What evidence there is, either way, is contradictory. And anyway, God judges, man does not. But to distract and to throw up obstacles in the way of the sincere seeker of truth, questioners make it seem like the whole of the truth of the gospel depends on whether or not Joseph practiced plural marriage.

You suggested that when the tested Arabian horse approaches the water, maybe someone other than the master tries to fool the horse into answering a false call. That is exactly what I think the people who throw stories about Joseph Smith and the doctrine of plural marriage into the air are doing. False whistles to distract from the master's call.

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I was bothered by a lot of what I read. I tried to put it on the back burner, figuring that in time I would come to understand why murder and mayhem were constant orders from God. I actually abandoned belief in the Bible my first semester in college after studying a little history.

Zeitgeist,

If I may ask, have you read any of Margaret Barker's stuff on the OT, and if so has it changed your view at all of the OT? Also, from what I have heard she is also a believing Methodist minister of some kind who happens to be an OT scholar who does not seem to have hang ups about the OT God, so does that not perhaps cause you to rethink your view?

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FWIW, I emailed several trainers of Arabian horses, and asked if they had ever heard of such a training regimen. Here is the first reply I got back:

Absolutely not!  I've been training, showing, judging, and breeding for 30 years.  I have never heard such nonsense.  Sounds like a myth coming from the early days on the desert.

Rest assured there are much better ways to select a horse.

Thanks for you note, feel free to email anytime.

You liken this story to a parable, but the reason parables are effective is because they recount believable (but sometimes unusual) stories to illustrate a larger principle. If the story wasn't believable, it isn't a good illustration.

Christ's parables are also effective because we trust that the principles being taught are 100% true because of who is telling them. But in this case, the principle being taught is of dubious quality, and the truthfulness of the story being told to teach that principle is of doubt, so there really isn't an argument being made at all. It's just a myth.

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Cinepro, it was my understanding that the story had a desert origin, as the trainer said that you mentioned. In such a setting it could be a matter of life and death. I didn't think it had much to do with horse shows or races. I should have included that in the story.

And the principle taught? We faithful LDS believe that it is a matter of life and death, in an eternal sense, to answer the call of the Master. And that nothing we have to do in subserving our personal will to His is too great a sacrifice. By being willing to do this we become heirs with Him, of all that the Father has.

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I believe that more LDS Church members know that Joseph Smith was a Polygamist Today than the LDS Church members back about 15 to 20 years ago. The reason why I believe more LDS Church members Today know that Joseph smith was a Polygamist is mainly because of the internet, and a lot more people of the LDS Church are getting a lot more information about the Church from the Internet.

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Brackite,

I was a Convert in the 1950's and I can honestly say that I have not learnt any more about Polygamy from the Internet!

I would agree that I have indeed read more about Polygamy from the Internet but it is certainly NOT about Polygamy but rather loads of vile and vitriol! I think you can see the difference!

One is TRUTH the other is UNTRUTH!

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Bracki: The reason why I believe more LDS Church members Today know that Joseph smith was a Polygamist is mainly because of the internet...

John Corrill: Hi Bracki!! This was certainly the case with me.

lwyatt: Not me. I think that it is because people are actually starting to listen in Sunday School. :P:unsure:<_<

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