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Could Joseph Smith be a "Fallen Prophet"


Guest Lori

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My question to you is... IF these claims of abuse (manipulation, coercion etc.) are true woud you have difficulty with it or would you be OK with it because it was God's will.

It's hard for me to answer this question becasue to me, "abuse" is a question of intent and I see no "intent" to abuse. In my view, Smith sincerely believed exactly what he told the women involved.

Moreover, I'm convinced that the women in question had much more leeway and independence.

You and John, obviously, do not, thus we are approaching the question from two different, and completely irreconcilable directions.

I understand your and John's concerns. I guess I'm just more charitable in my interpretation of events based on Joseph whole life than you are.

C.I.

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CI,

Nope. And in fact, it wouldn't surprise me to find out he did say that because it follows a biblical pattern of how God sometimes deals with reluctant prophets. (See Moses, Zipporah and the sharp, bloody stone).

Might I point out... the Spiteful Jonah.

Poor guy got et by a shark, then coughed up and brought back from the dead before he did what the Lord said.

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Hi,

Truth Dancer I believe Joseph Smith Jr. respected women. I don't see him as manipulative myself. Lots of people honestly believed in polygamy.

I see your issue with manipulation, Joseph's power & authority & abusive recruitment methods for wives as only one of your issues. The other issue is you don't believe the man acted in God's authority as a prophet of God. So your first issue is just an excuse not to accept him as a prophet.

Sincerely,

Dale

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Dunamis: ...you have not shown any link between your psychologists and these women...If you cannot produce anything more than that go onto another subject or leave the board. We have a virtual thesis exploring every nook and cranny of disgust. ENOUGH.

John Corrill: I'm sorry. I really don't understand what you are asking me to do. Help me out here. I'd really like to understand.

Stop elaborating on what you "feel" and start providing some evidence. Unnamed and uncited "LDS psychologists" who "feel" just like you do are not evidence. If you have nothing more to add than how awful, bad, mean and ugly plural marriage was go indulge yourself on another board. Fifty pages and counting. We have heard enough.

I do not think this is a difficult concept and there is always an easy option. Leave.

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Hi Dale...

Truth Dancer I believe Joseph Smith Jr. respected women. I don't see him as manipulative myself. Lots of people honestly believed in polygamy.

I see your issue with manipulation, Joseph's power & authority & abusive recruitment methods for wives as only one of your issues. The other issue is you don't believe the man acted in God's authority as a prophet of God. So your first issue is just an excuse not to accept him as a prophet.

Yes I do have an issue with manipulation and coercion of women and children.

Yes I do not think there are prophets as many seem to believe.

But the behavior of JS has NOTHING to do with me not accepting him as a prophet.

I don't accept anyone as a prophet. As we all know the behavior of the "prophets" has not been exactly stellar throughout recorded history... :P But I don't even really great guys being prophets.

It is not that I think a man has bad behavior so he can't be a prophet. It is more like I don't think God works in this way... IOW, the God/Source/Spirit in which I believe would not ask others to kill, harm, hurt others. It just sort of doesn't fit with my paradigm of existence!

I do think that many people do horrible/hurtful/cruel/unhealthy things with the belief they are acting in the name of God.

Just my opinion... <_<

~dancer~

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And those who do think they are acting in the name of God when hurting others are plainly mistaken...

But as an LDS apologist, I also do not believe that any of the modern-day LDS prophets have hurt anyone in the name of God...

For me anyway, your argument fails because it appears misdirected...

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Hi,

Truth Dancer Joseph Smith Jr. was no doubt human. Perhaps he was guilty of manipulation of women & children. People also do wrong things in the name of God. Why couldn't he have been sincere in believing in plural marriage? Or do you believe him to have been a fraud?

Do you have an specific example of a woman, or child he manipulated? Name a name & I will see if I have any information on her. Have you read Joseph Smith Fought Polygamy yet?

http://www.restorationbookstore.org

Sincerely,

Dale

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Dunamis: Stop elaborating on what you "feel" and start providing some evidence.

John Corrill: I am curious if you saw any of the information (multiple quotes and links) I provided to psychologists and mental health organizations speaking about abuse and forced marriages?

Dunamis: Unnamed and uncited "LDS psychologists" who "feel" just like you do are not evidence.

John Corrill: I understand that. I made ONE comment in this regard. I didn't submit it as evidence, nor did I claim as much. It is clearly anecdotal.

I did post MULTIPLE links to mental health organizations and psychologists who ARE qualified to speak about coercion, abuse, forced marriages, underage marriages, etc. This, I would consider evidence. I am curious to know if you saw any of these links and information?

Dunamis: If you have nothing more to add than how awful, bad, mean and ugly plural marriage was go indulge yourself on another board.

John Corrill: My concern is not with plural marriage per se, but rather with the way women and young girls were/are coerced into plural marriage. I have already indicated in this thread that some of the women Joseph Smith married as plural wives seemed eager to enter the relationship and I could identify no abuse. When it exists, I don't think we can say enough about the inappropriateness of abuse.

Dunamis: Fifty pages and counting. We have heard enough.

John Corrill: Those Fifty pages were certainly not all mine. Apparently, there is a lot of interest in this topic. However lengthy, perhaps letting this topic run it's course in the market of ideas would be wise. If you are worried about bandwidth costs, I would be happy to contribute an appropriate amount.

Dunamis: I do not think this is a difficult concept and there is always an easy option. Leave.

John Corrill: Whenever I see people deny, honor and defend abuse, it's difficult for me to not chime in. I realize this is an uncomfortable topic for many people. I don't see a problem with discussing and analyzing Joseph Smith's behavior. If I am completely off base, that will get worked out. In our church we discuss in GREAT detail so many other aspects of Joseph Smith's life. Why haven't we done so with this particular part of his life? This is a serious question and I would be very interested to hear your thoughts in this regard.

This topic has been taboo in our church, certainly throughout my lifetime, and I suspect way before that. It really needs to be talked about. I will try to do so in an appropriate and responsible manner. Should you invite me to leave, I will, but I don't plan to disengage myself from important discussions like this.

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John Corrill: Whenever I see people deny, honor and defend abuse, it's difficult for me to not chime in. I realize this is an uncomfortable topic for many people.

John, you obviously have no intention of understanding the problem. Please lecture all of those who "deny, honor and defend abuse" on another board. Leave.

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Hello Scott,

I'm sure he loved her. It is possible that what you say about Henry is true. It is also possible that Zina and his second wife simply no longer wanted to live with him for personal reasons.  Perhaps he was an abuser. Maybe he simply had a difficult personality.

What we know about this is that Zina left him. Her choice. Henry didn't seem to fight too hard against it .

If Henry was an abuser, then why did the Church leadership sent him out on several Missions? There is No historical record that I am aware of that Henry was an abuser. About Henry having a difficult personality, all I can think about is that he did tend to swear once in a while. Henry was a Great guy and a Great Missionary. He died as a faithful and a Good member of the Church.

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Hi,

Blink the legal status of the key plural wives was decided upon in that case. The Judge didn't say they lied. He stated if they were his wives at most under U.S. law they were but "sports in nest hiding." The Judge ruled on the legal merits of granting the women status as plural wives was rejected under his understanding of the law.

The Judge was provided in the case with published cards that denied polygamy in Nauvoo signed by people like Eliza R. Snow. When she signed that statement she committed perjury under U.S. law sincere as she may have been she legally invalidated her later testimony. William Law based on his heresy rumor mongering likewise had no legal case. I bought Price Publishing Company's reprint of the Temple Lot Case & smile when I see books cite the testimonies but leave things out. Signature Book's & Utah Lighthouse Ministries is the worst sources on polygamy & Joseph Smith Jr. I think Richard & Pamela Price do better research at Price Publishing Compan than them. 

What does the judge mean when he says "sports in nest hiding"?

Are you saying the judge said they had no legal standing because the law did not acknowledge them as wives? Or that they lost their legal standing, when they publically denied being plural wives, as Eliza Snow did?

[edited to save bandwidth]

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Hi,

Blink Eliza Snow by signing contradictory statements lost whatever legal standing she could have had under the law. He saw none of them as having legal standing under U.S. law.

The Partridge sisters claimed to marry Joseph Smith Jr. on a couple of dates. I have since seen Joseph was quite busy on one of the dates they gave. http://www.restorationbookstore.org has a book by Liahona Researh entitled Joseph Smith Who Was He? Did He Teach Or Practice Polygamy? by Willard J. Smith. It presents evidence of purjury on the part of the Partridge Sisters. I don't have the book for a long time or would cite it to you. It's in the Mormonism section of their book store for $6.50.

I couldn't find an exact definition for "sports in nest hiding." I think he felt it was at most under U.S. law if it happened parties hiding Joseph's bed-mates for him." That's not a total exoneration for Joseph Smith Jr. but it was a blow to the polygamy witnesses.

Sincerely,

Dale

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Was most of the persecution of the saints because of rumors that Joseph was practicing polygamy or just because he was a prophet?

Also, how can we dismiss that so many people left the church over this polygamy revelation including his first presidency, witnesses to the Book of Mormon that never deny their testimony. I can't just dismiss them as apostates out to destroy the church when that was not their intention at all. David Whitmer was a very honorable man from everything I have read on him. It seems unfair to call them apostates when they believed in the Book of Mormon but had serious problems with this one doctrine. Was there more to it than that? Can you tell me anything negative against David Whitmer? Why would he be out to destroy the true church when he so strongly proclaims the Book of Mormon is true? I am not able to dismiss his testimony of Joseph.

Was most of it all because of polygamy? It seems like everything keeps coming back to this revelation in regards to persecution, leaving for Utah, apostates and so on. The more I learn about the history, the more it seems like polygamy was the religion. (to the LDS in Utah)

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Hi Lori... :unsure:

Was most of the persecution of the saints because of rumors that Joseph was practicing polygamy or just because he was a prophet?

Well, you will get differing reponses to this question. :P

Many will suggest that the persecution was the workings of Satan because the truth was upon the earth; that others didn't have enough faith to understand this revelation was from God; that they didn't have enough trust in the prophet and lost their testimony of Joseph Smith.

Other will suggest that it was morally wrong for JS to coerce girls and women to marry him, that he lied to the members of the church and to the public, that he was asking already married women to be his. Some didn't think this was of God.

As I have studied this whole issue I compare it to how the country responded to some cults that have come into existence in recent memory. When society thinks an organization is harming its citizens and behaving in ways deemed morally dispicable it tends to step in.

IOW, the government wasn't afraid David Koresh was truly a prophet, they didn't like what was going on under his leadership! <_<

I guess it depends how one views it.

:ph34r:

~dancer~

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As a confirmed misogynist, I tend to think the church is misguided over the topic of marriage in general. No marriage arrangement has ever been an idyllic rose garden. After divorcing ten years ago, today I am having a difficult time understanding why any man wants a wife, or two, or any number. Women are just naturally unhappy creatures no matter what their circumstances, sniping, mean and nasty, always with a complaint, and always anxious to make sure everyone is as miserable as they are, and I'm very happy to be without one. Women will always find reasons to be miserable, in sacred lonliness or with every wish fulfilled.

---

Ulysses Everett McGill: A woman is the most fiendish instrument of torture ever devised to bedevil the days of man. :P

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All this moaning and handwringing about the plight of the poor plural wives and their sacred lonliness makes me laugh out loud. Imagine poor Brigham. There could hardly have been a more miserable existence in the history of the world. Imagine three dozen conniving scheming women trying every means of extortion and wheedling to win his favor. In that house there must have been a continual unrelenting cacauphony of whining and complaining like the world has never known. According to Ken Verdoia's documentary, Brigham had to lock himself in his private bedroom every night, just to get a moments peace. The poor guy must have been driven absolutely insane. No wonder he said some crazy things.

I still enjoy Mark Twain's observations about Brigham's plural wives. He said Brigham deserved a medal for putting up with them.

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Hi J.... :blink:

Imagine poor Brigham. There could hardly have been a more miserable existence in the history of the world. Imagine three dozen conniving scheming women trying every means of extortion and wheedling to win his favor. In that house there must have been a continual unrelenting cacauphony of whining and complaining like the world has never known.

<_<:huh::unsure::ph34r::P:lol:

So... ummm.. I guess you are not a fan of women!!! :angry:

Actually, you do bring up a good point and I'm thankful for the reminder that IMO, men suffer with this alternative lifestyle as well as women and children. There were many men unable to find wives, many who could not afford to take care of their women and his children, many men that could not develop an emotionally close and meaningful relationship with any woman even though he had several in his posession.

But J.... there are a some nice women out there.. I'm just sure of it!!!

:wub:

~dancer~

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Hello Dale,

Hi,

Blink Eliza Snow by signing contradictory statements lost whatever legal standing she could have had under the law.  He saw none of them as having legal standing under U.S. law.

The Partridge sisters claimed to marry Joseph Smith Jr. on a couple of dates. I have since seen Joseph was quite busy on one of the dates they gave. http://www.restorationbookstore.org has a book by Liahona Researh entitled Joseph Smith Who Was He? Did He Teach Or Practice Polygamy? by Willard J. Smith. It presents evidence of purjury on the part of the Partridge Sisters. I don't have the book for a long time or would cite it to you. It's in the Mormonism section of their book store for $6.50.

Dale, I totally disagree with you on this issue. Eliza Snow and Eliza and Emily Partridge are one of the most well documented plural wives of Joseph Smith. In the F.A.R.M.S. Review of Todd Compton

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Maybe I should ask this in a new topic, but I was wondering if anybody here has read the story of Brigham Young's 19th wife. I am reading it and was hoping for the apologist view of her statements. This book is very damaging to the church so I need to find out what is true in it.

This book has so far confirmed my worst fears of what polygamy was like and is very important for me to read for understanding the history. She is obviously a bitter opposer of polygamy after living it and her information on Brigham Young was shocking. I want to know what any of you found out after reading this since I am very new to this board.

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Hi,

Lori the book's anti-Mormon. How do you know her stories are true? If you have a story that bothers you cite it in full & we can discuss it. I saw a link to the book. I doubt all person's experienced polygamy in a bad way. And she wanted to hurt the LDS Church.

Brackite the judge in that case was interested in legal truth that was his job. He felt the claims were legally a joke & swatted them down in his decision. Of course he was more diplomatic in the wording he used. Perjury is perjury & he saw the evidence & had to decide upon the merits of his examples.

Documenting a position is a lot different than using sources correctly. Not one of those academics cite the decision of Judge Phillips.

I have In Sacred Lonliness by Todd Comptom. Let me give you an example of how he modified a source to weaken it's effect. Joseph Smith 3rd & Melissa Lott Willes sisters felt her claim to sexuality a false one. Also he left out Joseph 3rds oppinion on the family Bible marriage notation. In his interview of Melissa Joseph Smith 3rd though possibly his father had been sealed to her & that the agreement wasn't meant for life. Instead of letting the reader have that information Mr. Comptom rewrites the interview & leaving out stuff that was said. He did this because the interview made Melissa Lott Willes look like a fool. To me that statement admitting his father was involved with sealing was the most significant comment of Joseph Smith 3rds life. I have both Todd Comptom's book & Joseph 3rds memoiors & noticed the strange differences immediately.

Sincerely,

Dale

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Edited to update:

I am not going to resurrect this thread, but I have had some FAIR posters e-mail me to find out how I was doing. I took a long break from reading about plural marriage and still read on occasion here.

I didn't leave the church from the way I was treated on FAIR by some posters ( some have asked me if that was the result of coming here ) but it made me realize I have a thin skin and needed to stay off the forum while dealing with the emotions of learning church history. I am ready to give the apologetic side a fair chance now and hoping to rebuild my testimony, by reading things "in context" and keeping a spiritual perspective on the bigger picture.

It was the MOST painful experience of my life learning the doctrine of plural marriage and the people on FAIR that treated me with compassion and understanding turned out to be critics of the church or former members. If not for them, I would have felt alone.

I have to especially thank Dale, Truth Dancer, Moxy, John Corrill and Jarrod because they really understood what I was going through. (sorry if I forgot somebody) I am also grateful to Cinepro for making me smile with his sarcasm through it all.

My husband, sisters, cousins, a few friends, and some sisters in my Relief Society have posted on FAIR and were also shocked at the treatment of not only newbies like myself, but even the critics. Posters here should just be aware that FAIR is becoming increasing popular (with my family and friends at least ) and people may come here feeling hurt and betrayed by the church for teaching a false impression of history. It doesn't make them your enemy, and it doesn't mean they hate the church or WANT to leave.

I really don't understand the purpose of all this argueing and defense of the church if you are not doing it for the posters like myself that come here fresh from learning the "anti Mormon" material. It's just a waste of precious time if you are doing it for sport. As you know, if one person leaves the church they take a lot of other people with them. I have seen that in my own family. When I came to FAIR I didn't realize it was a war zone of TBM's fighting off trolls and critics for fun. I wonder how many people like myself were not trolls and accused as such because we have genuine hurt and anger once we learn the full history.

I want to sincerely apologize to those I offended, as that was never my intent.

Some felt I was bashing the church in my posts, speaking evil of the Prophets and took great offense at my feelings. That was not my intent, but was the result of betrayed feelings. I realize now I should have not posted here until I was emotionally over that stage of sickness and anger.

Reading through this old thread (I was new to internet Mormonism) I regret many of my posts. I am more experienced to this new apologetic world now and it was the wrong place to do it, but I didn't know where else to go for help.

Now that I am more experienced and educated about church history, I am embarrassed at my "newbieness" on this board. I needed to lurk for a while before posting and was too hasty in getting information.

That is my update for those that were concerned.

Thank you to everybody who tried to help me regardless of our opinions. :P

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