Chain of command for those who welcome loved ones into the Spirit World?

[nuclearfuels]

Looking for your speculation, educated guesses, etc. as I understand we don't currently know.

When loved ones die, I imagine their grandparents, great aunts, great uncles, spouses, etc. are there to welcome them into the spirit world.

How do they know when the home-going party will be? How do they know when to welcome the living into the spirit world?

They must be told, I suppose, by those who know the upcoming time of death, no? Otherwise how would they leave their missionary work to be at a home-going party?

Who would know the time: God who would tell Jesus who would tell the Quorum of the Twelve, who would tell the General Authorities, who'd tell the Area Authorities, who'd tell the mission presidencies and stake presidencies who'd tell the ward and branch leaders who'd tell the...?...home-teachers, visiting sisters, ministering brothers, ministering sisters, or tell the grandparents, great aunts, great uncles, spouses, etc. directly? 

Or do the grandparents, great aunts, great uncles, spouses, etc. simply know when their loved ones will pass away because they are often near us, or often visit us?

 

[The Nehor]

A lot of this assumes that time functions in the Spirit World the same way as it does here.

Also they may not know it is coming.

[JAHS]

I thought we already discussed this question. I could not even speculate an answer. 

[webbles]

I kind of think time and distance is different after death.  I'm also not sure there is a chain of command like you are talking about.  If there is one, I would expect it to be more family oriented, not "General Authorities"/"Area Authorities"

[blackstrap]

Their guardian angel is a " visiting brother/sister " who reports to Salt.. I mean Headquarters which then notifies the welcome wagon committee which then send the correct person to assist with orientation. It really gets complicated when thousands arrive all at once , eg. , a tsunami . 🤔

[Calm]

8 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Or do the grandparents, great aunts, great uncles, spouses, etc. simply know when their loved ones will pass away because they are often near us, or often visit us?

Or maybe we have different awareness on a spiritual level so we are aware of each other even in not in the same physical location, like an innate Find My App ability.

There are stories (have no clue if it’s for real, but it is easy enough to think of) of parents, spouses, siblings…especially twins, etc knowing someone has had a tragedy or died.  One might assume God or the Spirit has come to inform the individual, but what if it’s a more intimate connection.  Perhaps we are aware of others after death who are important to us no matter where they are just as we are aware of others who are on the same room with us in mortality.

Edited May 9 by Calm

[manol]

16 hours ago, The Nehor said:

A lot of this assumes that time functions in the Spirit World the same way as it does here.

Agreed!

15 hours ago, webbles said:

I kind of think time and distance is different after death.

Agreed!

15 hours ago, Calm said:

Or maybe we have different awareness on a spiritual level so we are aware of each other even in not in the same physical location, like an innate Find My App ability.

Agreed!

 D&C 130:6-7:  "The angels... reside in the presence of God, on a globe like a sea of glass and fire, where all things... are manifest, past, present, and future..." [emphasis mine]

Apparently quite a few near-death experiencers report something similar existing "in the light" - an eternal "now" rather than linear time; no spatial or geographic separation; and all things are known (<- these are my words as a non-experiencer and may be inaccurate).  I think these people and Joseph Smith are probably describing the same "place" but using different language.  The link below is cued up to one of the more in-depth descriptions, and that clip lasts for about four minutes, but I do suggest watching all the little clips to get a comprehensive perspective:

https://youtu.be/MRp0AVgsTQU?t=2094

Edited May 9 by manol

[Peacefully]

I agree with Calm. I think we are aware of our living loved ones, possibly checking in on them from time to time. I have no proof, it is just a feeling I have. 
 

I have also wondered if it is possible that spiritual time works in such a way that we are never really apart. No matter when we die, we all end up in the spirit world at the same time. Again, nothing to go on, just my own random thoughts. 

[GoCeltics]

12 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

How do they know when to welcome the living into the spirit world?

For some, there will be sadness when they see their friend or relative arrive in the same place of darkness. There won't be a salutation of "welcome".

Edited May 9 by GoCeltics
fix grammar

[CV75]

12 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Looking for your speculation, educated guesses, etc. as I understand we don't currently know.

When loved ones die, I imagine their grandparents, great aunts, great uncles, spouses, etc. are there to welcome them into the spirit world.

How do they know when the home-going party will be? How do they know when to welcome the living into the spirit world?

They must be told, I suppose, by those who know the upcoming time of death, no? Otherwise how would they leave their missionary work to be at a home-going party?

Who would know the time: God who would tell Jesus who would tell the Quorum of the Twelve, who would tell the General Authorities, who'd tell the Area Authorities, who'd tell the mission presidencies and stake presidencies who'd tell the ward and branch leaders who'd tell the...?...home-teachers, visiting sisters, ministering brothers, ministering sisters, or tell the grandparents, great aunts, great uncles, spouses, etc. directly? 

Or do the grandparents, great aunts, great uncles, spouses, etc. simply know when their loved ones will pass away because they are often near us, or often visit us?

 

I would say spiritual pheromones, something like the Spidey-sense we often see in real life.

[Stargazer]

12 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Looking for your speculation, educated guesses, etc. as I understand we don't currently know.

When loved ones die, I imagine their grandparents, great aunts, great uncles, spouses, etc. are there to welcome them into the spirit world.

How do they know when the home-going party will be? How do they know when to welcome the living into the spirit world?

They must be told, I suppose, by those who know the upcoming time of death, no? Otherwise how would they leave their missionary work to be at a home-going party?

Who would know the time: God who would tell Jesus who would tell the Quorum of the Twelve, who would tell the General Authorities, who'd tell the Area Authorities, who'd tell the mission presidencies and stake presidencies who'd tell the ward and branch leaders who'd tell the...?...home-teachers, visiting sisters, ministering brothers, ministering sisters, or tell the grandparents, great aunts, great uncles, spouses, etc. directly? 

Or do the grandparents, great aunts, great uncles, spouses, etc. simply know when their loved ones will pass away because they are often near us, or often visit us?

 

Some people find it uncomfortable to hear that the Father knows it all, and that to Him there is no mystery. And that He exists outside of time and space, which means outside of this universe. And this means that He knows the end from the beginning and while you wonder what you will do in the future, He knows it already. He cannot be surprised. 

So He knows when you will die, and those who need to know (if any) will be told. 

As to who will be told so they can be there, this seems to depend upon whether they can be there. For instance, of the two thieves who died on crosses with Jesus, one was penitent, and so would be in paradise (the good place) and the other would not. So the roster of friends or relatives permitted to greet them would depend upon where those were located, whether they had been good or evil, on balance.

I once wrote a little storylet about the passing of John Adams, 2nd president of the US, and his arrival in the Spirit World. Just my speculation, and if anyone's interested in reading it, here's where I've published it (on my own personal Wiki): The Passing of John Adams

[Stargazer]

38 minutes ago, GoCeltics said:

For some, there will be sadness when they see their friend or relative arrive in the same place of darkness. There won't be a salutation of "welcome".

Misery loves company?

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, Peacefully said:

I agree with Calm. I think we are aware of our living loved ones, possibly checking in on them from time to time. I have no proof, it is just a feeling I have. 

If so, I think it would depend upon permissions. Would some evil person, say Adolf Hitler, be permitted to check in on anyone? Given that he'd be in Spirit Prison and not Paradise, I'd imagine that he would be rather under some constraint. And possibly being subjected to a bright vision of all the evil he committed and inspired. Because I believe that out of our bodies our minds are not limited to what little our brains had held, and the difficulty we had to remember some things -- but since our true and complete memories are being held in our spirits, possibly out of the world at all times, it seems likely that we would have a bright recall of everything that we had done, and that had happened to us while we were in mortality. 

Personally, I am a bit worried about that total recall. There are things that I am uncomfortable with remembering -- things that I regret having done. I'm so glad that eventually that regret will be swallowed up in Christ's redemption.

3 hours ago, Peacefully said:

I have also wondered if it is possible that spiritual time works in such a way that we are never really apart. No matter when we die, we all end up in the spirit world at the same time. Again, nothing to go on, just my own random thoughts. 

If D&C 138 is consulted, and it be a true understand of affairs in the Spirit World, we wouldn't have ended up in the Spirit World at the same time. Some of us had been there for some time, waiting for the Lord's advent after his death. 

But it may also be the case that we cannot understand the nature of time in connection with the underlying basis of the universe. God sees it all as if it were one time, after all, else he couldn't tell us what would be. 

I imagine that the physicists who have passed on to "the next place" had a bit of a shock, followed by a "field day" trying to find the equations that described the new things that they found there. And I imagine that Steven Hawking was very happy to finally get out of that wheelchair.

[Peacefully]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

If so, I think it would depend upon permissions. Would some evil person, say Adolf Hitler, be permitted to check in on anyone? Given that he'd be in Spirit Prison and not Paradise, I'd imagine that he would be rather under some constraint. And possibly being subjected to a bright vision of all the evil he committed and inspired. Because I believe that out of our bodies our minds are not limited to what little our brains had held, and the difficulty we had to remember some things -- but since our true and complete memories are being held in our spirits, possibly out of the world at all times, it seems likely that we would have a bright recall of everything that we had done, and that had happened to us while we were in mortality. 

Personally, I am a bit worried about that total recall. There are things that I am uncomfortable with remembering -- things that I regret having done. I'm so glad that eventually that regret will be swallowed up in Christ's redemption.

If D&C 138 is consulted, and it be a true understand of affairs in the Spirit World, we wouldn't have ended up in the Spirit World at the same time. Some of us had been there for some time, waiting for the Lord's advent after his death. 

But it may also be the case that we cannot understand the nature of time in connection with the underlying basis of the universe. God sees it all as if it were one time, after all, else he couldn't tell us what would be. 

I imagine that the physicists who have passed on to "the next place" had a bit of a shock, followed by a "field day" trying to find the equations that described the new things that they found there. And I imagine that Steven Hawking was very happy to finally get out of that wheelchair.

I would imagine Hitler and the like will be busy repenting or in outer darkness or both. 

Edited May 9 by Peacefully

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Some people find it uncomfortable to hear that the Father knows it all, and that to Him there is no mystery. And that He exists outside of time and space, which means outside of this universe. And this means that He knows the end from the beginning and while you wonder what you will do in the future, He knows it already. He cannot be surprised. 

So He knows when you will die, and those who need to know (if any) will be told. 

That is true of this world as well yet God doesn’t tell the people here how to be there when someone dies or is born. Maybe God communicates more in the Spirit World. But maybe He doesn’t.

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

As to who will be told so they can be there, this seems to depend upon whether they can be there. For instance, of the two thieves who died on crosses with Jesus, one was penitent, and so would be in paradise (the good place) and the other would not. So the roster of friends or relatives permitted to greet them would depend upon where those were located, whether they had been good or evil, on balance.

So some will die and just be alone? 

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I once wrote a little storylet about the passing of John Adams, 2nd president of the US, and his arrival in the Spirit World. Just my speculation, and if anyone's interested in reading it, here's where I've published it (on my own personal Wiki): The Passing of John Adams

Wouldn’t John Adams go to Spirit Prison? That story seems to imply otherwise.

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, GoCeltics said:

For some, there will be sadness when they see their friend or relative arrive in the same place of darkness. There won't be a salutation of "welcome".

For almost all.

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, Peacefully said:

I would imagine Hitler and the like will be busy repenting or in outer darkness or both. 

I think you may be confused about outer darkness. That is the destination of those who, after the resurrection, are Sons of Perdition. To inherit this one must have known that Jesus was the Christ by revelation, but still deny Him. 

From Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, chapter 33: "Those who in mortality have known the power of God, been made partakers of it, and then later denied the truth and defied God’s power will also be sons of perdition (see D&C 76:31–32). Those who deny the Holy Ghost after having received it and crucify the Savior unto themselves will have no forgiveness and will be sons of perdition (see D&C 76:34–36; Matthew 12:31–32)."

Hitler is not one such. 

Actually, the talk is always that Mr. H. is the epitome of evil. There are others who get talked about rather more seldom who come close or exceed him. Examples include Genghis Khan, Stalin and Lenin, and Mao Zedong. Genghis's conquests and acts constitute the deaths of at least 10% of the then extant human race. Lenin's and Stalin's acts included the Holodomor, or hunger famine, in which up to 5 million people were deliberately starved to death. Mao's Great Leap Forward is estimated to have led to between 15 and 55 million deaths in mainland China during the 1959–1961 Great Chinese Famine it caused, making it the largest or second-largest famine in human history. 

It is certain that all of these gentlemen found themselves in Spirit Prison after their deaths. And as unlikely as it might sound, even they could possibly repent and receive forgiveness and inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom. 

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

That is true of this world as well yet God doesn’t tell the people here how to be there when someone dies or is born. Maybe God communicates more in the Spirit World. But maybe He doesn’t.

One of the differences between here and there is that nobody there can deny that there is life after death. So it might follow that those who doubted while in mortality feel that there might actually be a God, after all. And among those who are still there and are not yet resurrected will be those who saw the Savior arrive after his death, and who can testify of his arrival and teachings. The reason why God keeps his counsel hidden among mortals is to avoid trammeling on our free agency. But this concern would be lessened in the Spirit World.

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

So some will die and just be alone? 

Wasn't what I was suggesting. Some might die and find themselves in a place where nobody they knew in mortality is present. Say, in a evil family one member of the family might be in Paradise, where none of his relatives or friends are.

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Wouldn’t John Adams go to Spirit Prison? That story seems to imply otherwise.

Why would he go to Spirit Prison? The one thief on the cross was executed for criminality, yet he got Paradise as a promise. What evil did John Adams do?

The story does imply that he is in Paradise. Obviously I can't know. But it seems likely or certain to me.

[Peacefully]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I think you may be confused about outer darkness. That is the destination of those who, after the resurrection, are Sons of Perdition. To inherit this one must have known that Jesus was the Christ by revelation, but still deny Him. 

From Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual, chapter 33: "Those who in mortality have known the power of God, been made partakers of it, and then later denied the truth and defied God’s power will also be sons of perdition (see D&C 76:31–32). Those who deny the Holy Ghost after having received it and crucify the Savior unto themselves will have no forgiveness and will be sons of perdition (see D&C 76:34–36; Matthew 12:31–32)."

Hitler is not one such. 

Actually, the talk is always that Mr. H. is the epitome of evil. There are others who get talked about rather more seldom who come close or exceed him. Examples include Genghis Khan, Stalin and Lenin, and Mao Zedong. Genghis's conquests and acts constitute the deaths of at least 10% of the then extant human race. Lenin's and Stalin's acts included the Holodomor, or hunger famine, in which up to 5 million people were deliberately starved to death. Mao's Great Leap Forward is estimated to have led to between 15 and 55 million deaths in mainland China during the 1959–1961 Great Chinese Famine it caused, making it the largest or second-largest famine in human history. 

It is certain that all of these gentlemen found themselves in Spirit Prison after their deaths. And as unlikely as it might sound, even they could possibly repent and receive forgiveness and inherit the Terrestrial Kingdom. 

Nvmd

Edited May 10 by Peacefully

[The Nehor]

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

One of the differences between here and there is that nobody there can deny that there is life after death. So it might follow that those who doubted while in mortality feel that there might actually be a God, after all. And among those who are still there and are not yet resurrected will be those who saw the Savior arrive after his death, and who can testify of his arrival and teachings. The reason why God keeps his counsel hidden among mortals is to avoid trammeling on our free agency. But this concern would be lessened in the Spirit World.

I am not convinced that the existence of an afterlife is proof that there is a God. Unless something changes I am not sure that this will make preaching the gospel easier. Claiming that Jesus lived is not likely to be that convincing. Others can testify of any number of deities. I expect new religions will pop up and flourish there.

Also I don’t see how a knowledge of life continuing after death lessens agency somehow.

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Wasn't what I was suggesting. Some might die and find themselves in a place where nobody they knew in mortality is present. Say, in a evil family one member of the family might be in Paradise, where none of his relatives or friends are.

So kind of alone. That assumes there is some divide between the two that is locational and not a divide of some kind of status.

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Why would he go to Spirit Prison? The one thief on the cross was executed for criminality, yet he got Paradise as a promise. What evil did John Adams do?

John Adams didn’t get baptized. That is the requirement. Catholics went through some contortions to explain how the thief didn’t need baptism. Then again our own church did some cute dodges. When I was younger there were quotes from conference speakers about the word Jesus used for paradise in that verse meaning ‘world of spirits’ which is just wrong. It is easy to see why they did it. They had to explain how the thief got in without baptism. If it was just the world of spirits that works. The word used means an enclosed garden. It is also used to describe Eden.

7 hours ago, Stargazer said:

The story does imply that he is in Paradise. Obviously I can't know. But it seems likely or certain to me.

I don’t think you can get in without baptism.

Also we have the story from Wilford Woodruff when he was President of the St. George Temple reporting that the signers of the Declaration of Independence came to him and asked him to do their temple work and he did the work for them and all the dead U.S. presidents (with a few exceptions such as still perhaps being annoyed at Martin Van Buren blowing off Joseph Smith’s request for help to recover property in Missouri). They also picked a bunch of notables.

The list of those baptized is interesting. Napoleon III? Marie Antoinette? Stonewall Jackson? Frederick the Great? Jane Austen? Okay, what is the rhyme or reason here?

Here is the list:

https://josephsmithfoundation.org/wiki/eminent-spirits-appear-to-wilford-woodruff/

[manol]

On 5/9/2025 at 6:26 AM, Peacefully said:

I think we are aware of our living loved ones, possibly checking in on them from time to time. I have no proof, it is just a feeling I have.

My granddaughter and her two-year-old moved in with us about four weeks ago.  She's in the early stages of what looks to be a rough divorce.  Anyway a couple of nights after they moved in, as she was putting him to bed, the two-year-old suddenly stood up and looked in a particular direction and just started laughing his head off.  He was saying "Papa! Papa!".  That was the name my granddaughter's father had wanted his future grandchildren to call him.  He died about thirteen years ago, long before he had any grandchildren.  Anyway this went on for about twenty minutes.  Apparently the presence also embraced my granddaughter ("he's hugging me now!" is what she said).  A few days later the two-year-old was show a photo of his grandfather and he broke into a huge grin and jabbed the photo with his finger.  He has been shown dozens of other photos since moving in and he's never reacted that way to any of them. 

Now here's the part that is arguably relevant to this thread:  If my granddaughter's deceased father were to be judged by LDS standards, he would be judged as a moral failure.  Details if anybody can convince me they are necessary to get my point across.  My point is this:  At least as far as "visitation rights" goes, I do not think the LDS worthiness yardstick is the yardstick they are using on the other side.

 

On 5/9/2025 at 6:26 AM, Peacefully said:

I have also wondered if it is possible that spiritual time works in such a way that we are never really apart. No matter when we die, we all end up in the spirit world at the same time. Again, nothing to go on, just my own random thoughts. 

I hadn't thought of it that way, but this makes sense to me.  Thank you!

Here is another possible implication of "now" rather than "linear time" being the way things really are in eternity:  Rather than ever-increasing separation as different individuals progress at different speeds, maybe "speed of progression" truly doesn't matter, and therefore "separation" is not the way things really are.

Edited May 10 by manol

[Stargazer]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am not convinced that the existence of an afterlife is proof that there is a God.

I didn't say that, did I? I only suggested that an afterlife might increase the possibility to an atheist that there might be a God, after all.

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Unless something changes I am not sure that this will make preaching the gospel easier. Claiming that Jesus lived is not likely to be that convincing. Others can testify of any number of deities. I expect new religions will pop up and flourish there.

Perhaps new religions did pop up. It is certain that those who had an earthly religion that taught about an afterlife that didn't resemble what they found when they entered it, might have sought explanations that led to a new religion. 

But President Joseph F. Smith's revelation or vision of the Spirit World suggests that if there were new religions, they may have evaporated upon the arrival of the Son of God, who would have been clothed in eternal glory after his successful Atonement.

You might want to re-read D&C 138. 

Christ's consecration of missionaries is described as follows:

D&C 138:29 And as I wondered, my eyes were opened, and my understanding quickened, and I perceived that the Lord went not in person among the wicked and the disobedient who had rejected the truth, to teach them;
30 But behold, from among the righteous, he organized his forces and appointed messengers, clothed with power and authority, and commissioned them to go forth and carry the light of the gospel to them that were in darkness, even to all the spirits of men; and thus was the gospel preached to the dead. [emphasis added]

It seems that He did more than just say to them, "Go forth!" He first clothed them with power and authority. That suggests that they might have been recognizable as having been sent by someone important. This is especially interesting to me, how things are done there, since I am possibly closer to arrival there than you are. 

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Also I don’t see how a knowledge of life continuing after death lessens agency somehow.

I didn't say that. I said "The reason why God keeps his counsel hidden among mortals is to avoid trammeling on our free agency. But this concern would be lessened in the Spirit World."

By which I meant that to atheists, for example, the fact of life after death would provide some credible evidence that they might be wrong. Being perhaps open to a more nuanced experience would no more remove their agency than my spiritual experiences here in mortality removes mine.

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

So kind of alone. That assumes there is some divide between the two that is locational and not a divide of some kind of status.

Just because you find yourself among people you had not known in life does not make you alone. Any more than you visiting a town you had never before visited makes you alone. Just say Hi! to the first person you meet, and ask him or her a question. I don't expect it is any different in the Spirit World.

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

John Adams didn’t get baptized. That is the requirement.

Says who? Where do you get the idea that baptism is required for entry into Paradise? If that were the case, then when Christ visited Paradise to preach to the spirits he couldn't have been met by any prophets, such as Isaiah, Ezekiel, Elijah, or Elisha. Because they weren't baptized either, nor was John the Baptist, and according to your theory they would have been in Spirit Prison (or did John the Baptist baptize himself, like Alma?). In fact, the vast majority of the human race, including children who were accountable before they died, would have been in Spirit Prison and not Paradise, no matter how good they had been in mortality. If your theory is correct.

I've been a member of this church for nearly 50 years, and this is the absolute first time I've ever heard that the entry ticket to the Paradise side of the Spirit World is baptism, at least from a Latter-day Saint. One sometimes thinks one has heard it all, but clearly I had not. Thanks for adding to my list of astonishingly unexpected novelties!

Here is some of President Smith's description of what happened when Christ arrived in the Spirit World:

D&C 138:19 And there he preached to them the everlasting gospel, the doctrine of the resurrection and the redemption of mankind from the fall, and from individual sins on conditions of repentance.
20 But unto the wicked he did not go, and among the ungodly and the unrepentant who had defiled themselves while in the flesh, his voice was not raised;
21 Neither did the rebellious who rejected the testimonies and the warnings of the ancient prophets behold his presence, nor look upon his face.

Christ did not go to Spirit Prison, only Paradise. If those in Paradise had been baptized, then He would have had no reason to preach resurrection, redemption, or repentance from sin, because they would already have known all about it. And, let's see, how many humans had been baptized to that point in human history? Christ would have been preaching to a very small, select crowd indeed.

And note that it says that the ones he did not go to were the wicked, not the unbaptized. 

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Catholics went through some contortions to explain how the thief didn’t need baptism.

That's because the Catholics don't know anything about the three kingdoms of glory, but mistake Paradise for the final destination of the righteous. They think that the repentant thief was going to Heaven, not to an intermediary place. And they think that the unrepentant thief was going to Hell, not to an intermediary place. 

They're wrong, of course.

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Then again our own church did some cute dodges. When I was younger there were quotes from conference speakers about the word Jesus used for paradise in that verse meaning ‘world of spirits’ which is just wrong. It is easy to see why they did it. They had to explain how the thief got in without baptism. If it was just the world of spirits that works. The word used means an enclosed garden. It is also used to describe Eden.

I don’t think you can get in without baptism.

I don't think it is generally understood that everything ever said in General Conference is unadulterated truth, or never misunderstood by the listeners. Or perhaps Brigham's "Adam-God Doctrine" really is a fundamental truth and we better start teaching it again. Include it in the temple recommend questions, perhaps.

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Also we have the story from Wilford Woodruff when he was President of the St. George Temple reporting that the signers of the Declaration of Independence came to him and asked him to do their temple work and he did the work for them and all the dead U.S. presidents (with a few exceptions such as still perhaps being annoyed at Martin Van Buren blowing off Joseph Smith’s request for help to recover property in Missouri). They also picked a bunch of notables.

The list of those baptized is interesting. Napoleon III? Marie Antoinette? Stonewall Jackson? Frederick the Great? Jane Austen? Okay, what is the rhyme or reason here?

What rhyme or reason do you want? They all have to be proxy baptized at some point, anyway, right? We baptize every single person we find in our family tree, don't we? Even if we didn't like them? Well, you may have ancestors you disliked, but I don't. The vast majority of them I've never met. Yet I didn't stop to enquire if they were worthy of being baptized.

Do you have a problem with those on your list there? Shouldn't we baptize them? If we shouldn't, why not? I have some knowledge of the life of all of them. Are any of them evil? I don't think so. And even if they were, does being evil remove one from the list of those whom we should baptize by proxy? Now, I understand that every single one of those people in your list were sinners. No exceptions! Have any repented since they entered the Spirit World? I have no idea, but it's not for me to judge, is it?

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Here is the list:

https://josephsmithfoundation.org/wiki/eminent-spirits-appear-to-wilford-woodruff/

Do you have a problem with those on the list?

Edited May 10 by Stargazer

[Peacefully]

7 hours ago, manol said:

My granddaughter and her two-year-old moved in with us about four weeks ago.  She's in the early stages of what looks to be a rough divorce.  Anyway a couple of nights after they moved in, as she was putting him to bed, the two-year-old suddenly stood up and looked in a particular direction and just started laughing his head off.  He was saying "Papa! Papa!".  That was the name my granddaughter's father had wanted his future grandchildren to call him.  He died about thirteen years ago, long before he had any grandchildren.  Anyway this went on for about twenty minutes.  Apparently the presence also embraced my granddaughter ("he's hugging me now!" is what she said).  A few days later the two-year-old was show a photo of his grandfather and he broke into a huge grin and jabbed the photo with his finger.  He has been shown dozens of other photos since moving in and he's never reacted that way to any of them. 

Now here's the part that is arguably relevant to this thread:  If my granddaughter's deceased father were to be judged by LDS standards, he would be judged as a moral failure.  Details if anybody can convince me they are necessary to get my point across.  My point is this:  At least as far as "visitation rights" goes, I do not think the LDS worthiness yardstick is the yardstick they are using on the other side.

 

I hadn't thought of it that way, but this makes sense to me.  Thank you!

Here is another possible implication of "now" rather than "linear time" being the way things really are in eternity:  Rather than ever-increasing separation as different individuals progress at different speeds, maybe "speed of progression" truly doesn't matter, and therefore "separation" is not the way things really are.

Wow, what an amazing story. Thank you so much for sharing:) 

Edited May 11 by Peacefully

[Calm]

8 hours ago, manol said:

  If my granddaughter's deceased father were to be judged by LDS standards, he would be judged as a moral failure.

What about by your granddaughter?  Was this a happy/comforting moment for her?  Was it something she needed (whether she knew it or not)?

Feel free not to answer since this is getting into her personal space.  The story just feels a bit incomplete without her reaction as well as your great grandson (and here I thought you were younger than me).

[manol]

11 hours ago, Calm said:

What about by your granddaughter?  Was this a happy/comforting moment for her?  Was it something she needed (whether she knew it or not)?

Feel free not to answer since this is getting into her personal space.  The story just feels a bit incomplete without her reaction as well as your great grandson (and here I thought you were younger than me).

Thanks for letting me know that more information would be helpful.  I am not good at judging what is "too much information" nor what is "too little information", and GREATLY appreciate relevant requests and suggestions to either say more or say less.  You gave me a heads-up at least once about using wording that was out of place here, and I've tried to keep your advice in mind (though I'm still prone to coloring outside the lines).

Anyway when her son first started to laugh (and point with his finger - I forgot to mention that), my granddaughter was initially fearful and called for her grandmother (my wife).  Her grandmother rushed into the room and immediately sensed an extremely loving presence, as she describes it, and she told her granddaughter to hold her hands up, palms out, and feel the air/space in front of her.  She did so and said "Omigosh I can feel it!"  At some point, I'm not sure when, my wife said "it's J___", which was the deceased father's first name.  They both agreed that it felt like J___'s presence.  Anyway at some point J___ "hugged" her and she cried and cried from joy and love. 

So yes this was very comforting for my granddaughter.  Events in her life haven't gotten any easier since then, arguably just the opposite, but I'm sure that experience helps her.  She has "on the spectrum" (maybe "on several spectrums") challenges of her own; she DID NOT sign up for an easy-peasy earth life. 

Regarding timelines... My wife and I met and married long after having been divorced from other people, and we don't have any children together.  She got a head-start on me, so she's a for-real great-grandmother while I'm just a step-great-grandfather.  And I'm not good at acting my age... but am arguably getting more age-appropriate as my cognitive abilities deteriorate.

My wife experiences "stuff" more than most people I am aware of (certainly a lot more than me), usually solo but sometimes along with someone else. 

Here is a book which ime is useful for spiritual luddites such as myself, it's about sensing or feeling stuff rather than seeing or hearing stuff; let me know if you'd like a synopsis. If you're a Madeleine L'Engle fan the title might ring a bell:  

https://www.amazon.com/Kything-Spiritual-Presence-Louis-Savary/dp/0809130114/

 

Edited May 11 by manol