Scrupulousity and Perfectionism among LDS

[Calm]

https://byustudies.byu.edu/issue/63-4

An issue devoted to the subject with some interesting findings, probably unexpected for many of you.
 

Quote

Introduction

Are Latter-day Saints Perfectionists?: Guest Editor's Introduction

W. Justin Dyer

Page 3

Articles

Understanding Perfectionism

Debra Theobald McClendon, G. E. Kawika Allen, Jacelin Clayton, and Emma Moore

Page 11

Perfectionism Across Adolescence

W. Justin Dyer

Page 35

Parental Influence on Adolescent Perfectionism

Jenet Jacob Erickson, Olivia Forsberg, and McKenna Schmidt

Page 51

Perfectionism's Influence on Adolescent Mental Health

Mark D. Ogletree

Page 71

Religion and Perfectionism

Michael A. Goodman

Page 93

Healing from Toxic Perfectionism

Debra Theobald McClendon

Page 121

Love Is a Law, Not a Reward

Adam S. Miller

Page 153

Conclusion: Latter-day Saints and Perfectionism

W. Justin Dyer

Page 161

Appendix [63:4]

 

Page 167

From the intro:

Quote

Given scholars’ statements, our own experiences, and the cultural waters we swim in, it seems reasonable that religious people (and perhaps Latter-day Saints in particular) may be more likely to struggle with crippling perfectionism. At the same time, as I sat in that university meeting, I realized there had been no research that compares the perfectionism of Latter-day Saints to the perfectionism of members in other religions. Somewhat ironically, all the therapists and researchers who have said Latter-day Saints are higher on the scale of perfectionism than others have done so in the absence of any research.

I was aware of this lack of research because, for the last eight years, several colleagues and I have been studying the mental health of Latter-day Saint youth. We have been following over two thousand youth the past six years (about half Latter-day Saint, half not), examining how their faith and family connect to their mental health.

When the BYU therapist facilitating the discussion implied that “the gospel” caused perfectionism, I realized that we hadn’t yet analyzed the data on perfectionism from our study. So, during that meeting, I pulled out my laptop and, for the first time, began to crunch numbers on the perfectionism of Latter-day Saints, looking at how they compared to others. And when I looked at the initial results, it was clear the narrative we commonly hear was missing something important. It was also clear that a broad effort was needed to better understand perfectionism among Latter-day Saints.

This issue of BYU Studies is a response to that need for such a broad effort and contains the work of excellent scholars and practitioners examining the concept of perfectionism from a combined scholarly and Latter-day Saint perspective. Included is the most recent thinking on what perfectionism is, what causes it, what it causes, and what we can do about it. And, as Latter-day Saints, we are particularly interested in how the concept of perfectionism does and does not overlap with restored gospel truths about our potential for perfection.

Summary of articles

Quote

This issue has twin purposes. One is to summarize and extend the best scholarly research on perfectionism, particularly about Latter-day Saints, who are a group often assumed to have higher levels of toxic perfectionism (an unwarranted and unfortunate assumption, as will be seen). The second purpose is to help Latter-day Saint youth, parents, teachers, and leaders understand this misunderstood concept and what they can do to help the youth thrive by building healthy perfectionism and avoid its toxic manifestations. Thus, we have had both a scholarly and lay audience in mind when writing these articles.

In the first article, titled “Understanding Perfectionism,” the authors address the definitions of perfectionism used in research and therapy. Often when we use the term “perfectionism,” we do so without much serious thought as to what it means and its healthy and unhealthy aspects. The authors of this article help us see what these aspects look like and lay the definitional landscape for the other articles.

Next, “Perfectionism Across Adolescence” focuses on youth and toxic perfectionism, examining how it changes from early adolescence to late adolescence. This article outlines how our society today may create particular problems for youth (toxic perfectionism appears to have increased over the last few decades) and which youth may be most vulnerable to those problems. It also examines how boys and girls differ in perfectionism and how social-media use, location, and sexual orientation may all relate to toxic perfectionism.

The three following articles examine family, religion, and mental health as both causes and effects of toxic perfectionism. “Parental Influence on Adolescent Perfectionism” outlines how parents may influence their children’s perfectionism and what aspects of parenting relate most to Latter-day Saint youth’s toxic perfectionism. “Perfectionism’s Influence on Adolescent Mental Health” helps answer the critical question of why we should be interested in perfectionism in the first place. As the article demonstrates, the more our youth experience toxic perfectionism, the more likely they are to have serious mental health difficulties (see pp. 74–85). “Religion and Perfectionism”addresses how religion relates to toxic perfectionism. This is the first analysis of which we are aware that compares the perfectionism of Latter-day Saints and former Latter-day Saints to those of other faiths and no faith. Putting additional emphasis on the need to study perfectionism, this article demonstrates how toxic perfectionism may derail Latter-day Saint youth from the covenant path (p. 101).

The next article, “Healing from Toxic Perfectionism,” approaches toxic perfectionism from a clinical perspective, while providing hope and outlining a process of healing. For those struggling with toxic perfectionism (or those helping others in their struggle), this article is a boon. McClendon explains that toxic perfectionism includes the distortion that our behavior affects our worth (pp. 131–33). The implications of her data are clearly echoed in Adam Miller’s essay, “Love Is a Law, Not a Reward.” McClendon concludes that we already have God’s love, and we already have our infinite worth. Toxic perfectionism says, falsely, that God’s love and our worth are earned and that the price we must pay is complete perfection. This price, of course, is one we can never pay, nor are we asked to pay it. In the history of the world, only a single sinless life was needed (see 1 Jn. 3:5), and that life was fully lived by Jesus the Christ, through whom we can heal, by degrees, and eventually learn to love as he loves and become as he is.

Conclusion of Intro:

Quote

We think what we found in our research will surprise many Latter-day Saints (there were many surprises for us along the way). With the sustained secular winds that seem to blow against The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and religion in general, we need high-quality research and thinking that critically examines popular narratives about organized religion, which often mislead rather than inform. Such research shows how Latter-day Saints are influenced by perfectionism. We hope this issue of BYU Studies will be helpful to Latter-day Saints as they work to reduce toxic perfectionism and instead seek the healing and healthy ideas about perfection through Christ.

 

Edited March 11 by Calm

[Calm]

If this topic interests you, you might find this interesting as well.

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blog/2025/02/07/the-cause-for-christ-episode-2-scrupulosity-moral-and-religious-ocd-with-dr-debra-mcclendon

Quote

In this episode, Ryan sits down with Debra McClendon to discuss religious OCD, also known as Scrupulosity. Debra shares valuable advice for those navigating Scrupulosity while striving to stay faithful within the church. They explore what approaches tend to be effective, what often falls short, and dive into topics like consecration, burnout, and finding balance. If you or someone you know struggles with Scrupulosity, anxiety, or toxic perfectionism, we hope this conversation offers insight and support.

Debra Theobald McClendon, PhD is a licensed psychologist in the state of Utah and has interjurisdictional authorization to work with clients in most U.S. states. She specializes in treating those with scrupulosity, a religious and moral subtype of OCD. She is the owner of The OCD & Scrupulosity Clinic (ocdscrupulosityclinic.com) and is a member of the International OCD Foundation. She has been interviewed on podcasts, published articles, and published the book: “Freedom from Scrupulosity: Reclaiming Your Religious Experience from Anxiety and OCD.”

Ryan Sorensen is a native of Cache Valley, Utah. He earned his Bachelor’s degree at BYU-Idaho and is currently pursuing a Master of Divinity at Abilene Christian University, with plans to become a chaplain after graduation. Ryan previously hosted a podcast called The Whom Shall We Go? Podcast. In his spare time, he enjoys being involved in interfaith work, reading about Latter-day Saint theology and history, training for triathlons, and spending time with friends and family.

 

[Calm]

The article Religion and Perfectionism might catch your interest….

Quote

Contrary to what some may assume, religion overall is associated with lower levels of toxic perfectionism. When it comes to the association between religious denominations and toxic perfectionism, having a religious association or a belief in God (though not affiliated) tended towards lower levels of toxic perfectionism compared to those of no religion. Regarding statistically significant differences, Latter-day Saints and those of “Other Religions” had lower toxic perfectionism than atheists and agnostics and former Latter-day Saints. Though the difference of toxic perfectionism between those with any religious association was significantly lower than atheists or agnostics and especially lower than former members of any religious denomination. In addition to affiliation, how important religion is to a person is connected to perfectionism. For example, those who felt religion was important to them were more than twice as likely to be low in toxic perfectionism.

However, it is more complex than simply saying that religion is associated with low levels of toxic perfectionism. A person’s approach to religion is also crucial. For example, those who engaged in religion because it was meaningful to them (identified) had low levels of toxic perfectionism while those whose motivation was to avoid shame (introjected) had higher levels of toxic perfectionism.

 

[Dario_M]

Well.. my ward here is not like that. I don't see any toxic positivity on here. Nor perfectionism or scripulousity. In my ward i can just be myself. I don't have to fake anything. If i'm having a bad day on sunday i just show that in my ward and i'm not doing any effort to show as if i'm happy. If i don't wanna talk to anyone i just politely ask or they wanna leave me alone.

I'm not an actor. I'm not a perfectionist. I don't need to make an effort to show other people something i just don't wanna show, because i'm unhappy or just because i'm having a bad day.  

[Stargazer]

I've been a member of the church since I was 14, and I'm 73 now. I've been a member of (taking a moment to count) 12 wards and branches. In only one have I seen evidence of any crippling perfectionism. In my very first ward there was a young woman (teenager) who tried to give a talk in sacrament meeting, but before she had gone about one minute into the talk her face showed panic and then she broke down in tears on the stand. And then sat down to cry as quietly as she could. The meeting proceeded normally after that, sort of, as the members tried to pretend nothing had happened. As young as I was, I didn't understand what had happened, and didn't ask, either. But I overheard the mother of the family who regularly brought me to church with them comment to her husband later, that the girl's parents were really overbearing about success and accomplishment. What I suspect now is that they had made her memorize her talk and give it without notes. And having lost her train of thoughts, she was afraid she would be punished? But I don't know.

That's the only instance of such a thing that I can remember. 

Generally, I think there may be strong expectations, but ... 

I just asked my wife if she suffered from perfectionism. She nodded her head, and went back to watching her television program. Frankly, I don't think she does. She's mentioned in the past that some members she's known have tried to be "Molly Mormon" or some such -- you know, making your own clothes, baking your own bread, always a tidy house, and so on. And she can do all that, but with only us here there's not much pressure, except self-pressure. But she's retired, so it's her privilege! 

I myself wish I were better at certain things. I stay up late, sleep in late, dress sloppily during the day (and sometimes wander around the house in my PJs for hours before getting dressed). I used to spend two or three hours a day stomping around this place (MDDB), but I've cut back. And now I spend too much time posting on X and Quora. But I'm retired, and it's my privilege, darn it.

Oh, speaking of Quora, if you remember the old poster LeSellers, I found him on Quora., answering LDS-related questions. He's a frequent question-answerer there. So he's not yet shuffled off this mortal coil, and that's good.

[Calm]

25 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

having lost her train of thoughts, she was afraid she would be punished?

It could have been embarrassment, uncontrolled anxiety, shame, anger at herself.  I have a relative who cries after most of their performances because they are a perfectionist.  Adult, so no fear of parents and loving husband who could care less about the mistakes, so fear of punishment t need not be involved.

I am a perfectionist, it runs in my family, inherited from at least grandparents and likely great grandparents from some of the stories my grandmothers told, bragged about actually, about how their parents disciplined them over trivial things.  I hope I kept the horror I felt off my face.  Not sure it was abuse, but boy it came close if not.  I learned to restrain my inclination once I realized it only made things worse.  But the voice is always letting me know what a loser I am.  I am very good at either ignoring or being amused by it.  

So people can be perfectionists and not look like it.  My writing is probably where it shows the most these days, I can’t submit a post without proofing it several times and I almost always have to edit a post if I catch an error even if it’s months old and missing parentheses.  

I make plenty of errors as I have never been that good at being a perfectionist.

Edited March 11 by Calm

[Stargazer]

50 minutes ago, Calm said:

It could have been embarrassment, uncontrolled anxiety, shame, anger at herself.  I have a relative who cries after most of their performances because they are a perfectionist.  Adult, so no fear of parents and loving husband who could care less about the mistakes, so fear of punishment t need not be involved.

I am a perfectionist, it runs in my family, inherited from at least grandparents and likely great grandparents from some of the stories my grandmothers told, bragged about actually, about how their parents disciplined them over trivial things.  I hope I kept the horror I felt off my face.  Not sure it was abuse, but boy it came close if not.  I learned to restrain my inclination once I realized it only made things worse.  But the voice is always letting me know what a loser I am.  I am very good at either ignoring or being amused by it.  

So people can be perfectionists and not look like it.  My writing is probably where it shows the most these days, I can’t submit a post without proofing it several times and I almost always have to edit a post if I catch an error even if it’s months old and missing parentheses.  

I make plenty of errors as I have never been that good at being a perfectionist.

If I were a perfectionist in general, I would be a miserable man. Recognizing that it isn't going to happen, I have resigned myself to being good enough. In most things, anyway. Like you, I do struggle over making my writing as perfect as possible. And fail all too frequently, as well.

[Rain]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

If I were a perfectionist in general, I would be a miserable man. Recognizing that it isn't going to happen, I have resigned myself to being good enough. In most things, anyway. Like you, I do struggle over making my writing as perfect as possible. And fail all too frequently, as well.

I was a perfectionist for most of my life and you're right about how it made me feel.  I wasn't miserable, but I wasn't happy. It still springs up sometimes now, but it is getting better.

I've known quite a few perfectionists, but I saw it more when I was in school. Some probably because I saw them every day. Some because of the nature of school.

[Senator]

So the pressing question is, what role does the church have in fomenting toxic perfectionism?  (and no I don't have time to read all the articles yet) 

Edited March 11 by Senator

[ZealouslyStriving]

10 minutes ago, Senator said:

So the pressing question is, what role does the church have in fomenting toxic perfectionism?  (and no I don't have time to read all the articles yet) 

Read the article... those active in the Church are least likely to exhibit toxic perfectionism.

Ex members are most likely to exhibit TP, both before and after leaving. So this lends credence to the theory many ex members experience of TP in the Church was a product of their own making.

[MustardSeed]

Excellent - I look forward to reading all these article articles.

I appreciate that this introductory article was very clear about the definition of perfectionism that they were pursuing: 

 

how we feel about ourselves when we don’t meet our standards or when we make mistakes.  
 

Following Brene Browns research, perfectionism is more of a defense mechanism to avoid shame than it is an evidence of high achievement. 

 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Senator said:

So the pressing question is, what role does the church have in fomenting toxic perfectionism?  (and no I don't have time to read all the articles yet) 

There's probably a few different ways but I think that for people who have the tendency toward perfectionism, one way the culture of the church can foment it is when members and leaders focus too much on all the "do's" of the gospel and ways to be perfect while doing them.

For example, I've heard members talk before about how they can't be perfect in everything but they can be perfect paying their tithing right now, and work on perfecting other things over time.  They mean well but essentially it just sounds like they are saying that our goal as members is to work ourselves up to not needing Christ's grace.  

When we diminish the purpose and need for Christ's grace in our lives with the idea that the goal is to make them unnecessary, that can really mess us up.  I think sometimes that manifests through toxic perfectionism.

 

Edited March 11 by bluebell

[MustardSeed]

Random thoughts-

I personally think of perfectionism in two ways.  One, clinically, the way it is studied here.  Two, the pursuit of excellence as manifested by  high achievement, often triggering a competitive environment for others bred to pursue excellence. 

Im affected by both.  My family celebrates achievement.  That is the same as love to me. Also, shame in failure is to be avoided.  

I think the avoidance of shame via perfectionism is similar to the clinical understanding of narcissism- the intolerance of one’s own flaws. 
 

 

[stelf]

I also don't have time at the moment to read the articles, but they sound very interesting.

I do have some thoughts on this topic though. Sometimes when we talk about perfection we say something along the lines of "You don't have to be perfect, you just have to do your best." I think even this is problematic though. The problem for me is how do we even define what "perfect" or "best" means? I have not been able to form even a workable definition of what perfect means as it would apply to me. Are we just talking about actions? Intent? Outcomes? So, to combat the problem of perfectionism I've had to say that I can't even commit to always doing my best. Truthfully, I do not always do my best. Right now, I am typing on an internet discussion board instead of working. However, I can commit to at least showing up. I can commit to at least doing something, to trying. There really is no best or perfect.

 

[Senator]

53 minutes ago, bluebell said:

There's probably a few different ways but I think that for people who have the tendency toward perfectionism, one way the culture of the church can foment it is when members and leaders focus too much on all the "do's" of the gospel and ways to be perfect while doing them.

For example, I've heard members talk before about how they can't be perfect in everything but they can be perfect paying their tithing right now, and work on perfecting other things over time.  They mean well but essentially it just sounds like they are saying that our goal as members is to work ourselves up to not needing Christ's grace.  

When we diminish the purpose and need for Christ's grace in our lives with the idea that the goal is to make them unnecessary, that can really mess us up.  I think sometimes that manifests through toxic perfectionism.

 

Well said!

I had a mission president whose main mantra was derived from D&C 82: 10, "I, the Lord and bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise."  He coupled this with the stories of the stripling warriors, and the sons of Mosiah's exactness in commandment keeping, hence resulting in protection/success. This translated to the equation,  keeping the mission rules and goals with exactness = baptisms. 

It was not the best two years of my life.

[Kenngo1969]

I've given up.  But don't worry: That's not nearly as bad as it sounds. I've given up most all the expectations that I thought others had of me, as well as most all those that I had of myself.  When it comes to spiritual things, I've realized that, where I'm concerned, if I'm going to be saved, Christ is going to have to do most all of the work; and if I'm going to be exalted, here, too, Christ is going to have to do most all of the work.  (Which is good, because I suck at it, while He's really good at it, and He's already done most all of it.  About the things only left for me to do are the things that will show Him that I want it, because about the only thing He, in His Omniscience, cannot do is save me or exalt me against my will.)

Just as I always have, I hope all of the things that people depend on me for, that I'm involved in, or that people expect me to do, go well.  I always thought that depression was "my big thing," and, in many ways, it was: More than once, I've described it here as "the dog that has alternated between nipping at my heels and threatening to devour me whole."  The thing that I didn't recognize is that there was a huge undercurrent of anxiety that went with it. 

I didn't recognize it as anxiety, because I just thought, "Oh, that's not anxiety: that's just, 'people expecting me to do stuff,'" or, "Oh, that's just, 'me expecting me to do stuff.'  It only stands to reason: Aren't people supposed to be able to depend on me to do stuff, and aren't I supposed to be able to depend on me to do stuff?"  Yeah, I suppose that's true, but I also catastrophized nearly every potential outcome of "stuff not getting done" or of "stuff not getting done as well as (I thought) it should be done."  The reality, though, is that, because people are human (including me; imagine that! ) sometimes, stuff doesn't get done.  And, often, even when it does get done, it doesn't get done as well as it could get done.  In the words of some of my ancestors, C'est la vie!  That's life!  If stuff doesn't get done, could some bad things happen?  Yes, but rarely (if ever) were they as bad as the things I imagined would happen if they didn't get done.

Now, if stuff doesn't get done, or if it doesn't get done as well as it could get done, oh, well!  C'est la vie!  That's life!  Now, instead of telling myself, "Ken, you'd better do this, and you'd better do it really well, because if you don't do it and if you don't do it really well, really bad stuff is going to happen!" I tell myself, "Welp, if I do the best I can, and that's still not good enough, guess what?  I'm human!  Humans make mistakes, and humans don't do stuff they should, and they don't do even important stuff as well as they should do it, all the time! "  (Suprise, suprise!)  Or, "Well, I didn't do that stuff as well as I could have or should have done it: Hopefully, I'll be able to apply lessons learned from this occasion to the next time somebody asks me to do that stuff!"

Linus told Sabrina at the end of the movie that takes her name as its title, "Save me, Sabrina Fair.  You're the only one who can."  So I say, "Save me, Lord Omnipotent.  You're the only one who can."  And, "Lord, I believe.  Help Thou mine unbelief!"  Alas!, how many things would I have not done, or how many things would I have done better, if only I knew then what I know now?  C'est la vie!  Live and learn!

In the same vein as my "discourse" here, consider this, from the great Michael McLean:

 

[stelf]

33 minutes ago, Senator said:

Well said!

I had a mission president whose main mantra was derived from D&C 82: 10, "I, the Lord and bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise."  He coupled this with the stories of the stripling warriors, and the sons of Mosiah's exactness in commandment keeping, hence resulting in protection/success. This translated to the equation,  keeping the mission rules and goals with exactness = baptisms. 

It was not the best two years of my life.

This definitely resonates with me. I remember hearing lessons and talk from mission presidents and the office elders about this very thing. They even went so far as to say that if you don't leave your apartment by 9 am sharp, you could miss someone that you were supposed to talk to and they would lose out on eternal blessings. I basically spent two years feeling like there was no hope I would ever measure up.  These were not internal things I initially put on myself, but I definitely did internalize a lot of these teachings. It's been hard to extricate myself from them.

Edited March 11 by stelf
fixed a typo

[Senator]

9 minutes ago, stelf said:

This definitely resonates with me. I remember hearing lessons and talk from mission presidents and the office elders about this very thing. They even went so far as to say that if you don't leave your apartment by 9 am sharp, you could miss someone that you were supposed to talk to and they would lose out on eternal blessings. I basically spent two years feeling like there was no hope I would ever measure up.  These were not internal things I initially put on myself, but I definitely did internalize a lot of these teachings. It's been hard to extricate myself from them.

Especially since we now learn that it was all a product of our own making.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Senator said:

Well said!

I had a mission president whose main mantra was derived from D&C 82: 10, "I, the Lord and bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise."  He coupled this with the stories of the stripling warriors, and the sons of Mosiah's exactness in commandment keeping, hence resulting in protection/success. This translated to the equation,  keeping the mission rules and goals with exactness = baptisms. 

It was not the best two years of my life.

This is often a problem. Doing your best can be a cheerful attitude if taken in a positive way and not assume it is an absolute statement of fact. If doing your best means objectively making the best possible choice in every situation (probably strictly a more exact definition) it is crippling. I took a nap yesterday because I was tired. Was that the best use of my time? I could have pushed through and accomplished something much more worthwhile. I did not. So not my best. Better not do that again. Then the Mission slogans about pushing yourself harder every day and it just became a cacophony of minor failures. Thankfully I just stopped believing the people pushing it for my own sanity.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Senator said:

Well said!

I had a mission president whose main mantra was derived from D&C 82: 10, "I, the Lord and bound when ye do what I say; but when ye do not what I say, ye have no promise."  He coupled this with the stories of the stripling warriors, and the sons of Mosiah's exactness in commandment keeping, hence resulting in protection/success. This translated to the equation,  keeping the mission rules and goals with exactness = baptisms. 

It was not the best two years of my life.

Another great example of people who mean well but actually cause a lot of problems.

No where does God promise that if you try to be perfect in obeying mission rules, you will get more baptisms.  Your mission president made up a command in God’s name and then assigned a specific blessing to it from God’s hand.

 

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Read the article... those active in the Church are least likely to exhibit toxic perfectionism.

Ex members are most likely to exhibit TP, both before and after leaving. So this lends credence to the theory many ex members experience of TP in the Church was a product of their own making.

So it is a moral decision? I suspect it is more a condition created by environmental and genetic and psychological and familial and social conditions.

The worst toxic perfectionist I know was the second woman I was engaged to. In hindsight her parents and family were a big element in this. She broke over it. Broke to the point of being involuntarily committed. She left the church later and I really suspect this was a good thing for her as she tried to meet every spoken and unspoken expectation people put on her. Last I checked in on her she was still showing signs of toxic perfectionism. She was trying to end animal cruelty (good) but was equating human life to other animal life as being of equal value or even elevating other animal lives above human lives. There are all kinds of other strict rules she is enforcing on herself.

I am not going to blame this entirely on the Church. A lot came from her family and I can see in hindsight how the parents (probably without acknowledging it to themselves) pitted the children against each other to achieve. The parents were always bragging about themselves and their children and the parents holding on to old glories from their youth came across to me as vaguely pathetic. They were caught in the same death struggle they gave their kids.

I think it is more that people with these traits are more likely to drop out than that they chose them.

Edited March 11 by The Nehor

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, stelf said:

I also don't have time at the moment to read the articles, but they sound very interesting.

I do have some thoughts on this topic though. Sometimes when we talk about perfection we say something along the lines of "You don't have to be perfect, you just have to do your best." I think even this is problematic though. The problem for me is how do we even define what "perfect" or "best" means? I have not been able to form even a workable definition of what perfect means as it would apply to me. Are we just talking about actions? Intent? Outcomes? So, to combat the problem of perfectionism I've had to say that I can't even commit to always doing my best. Truthfully, I do not always do my best. Right now, I am typing on an internet discussion board instead of working. However, I can commit to at least showing up. I can commit to at least doing something, to trying. There really is no best or perfect.

 

Yes!  I hate the “do your best“ compromise. Because I pretty much can always do better.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

Another great example of people who mean well but actually cause a lot of problems.

No where does God promise that if you try to be perfect in obeying mission rules, you will get more baptisms.  Your mission president made up a command in God’s name and then assigned a specific blessing to it from God’s hand.

 

From what I hear most Mission Presidents push something along these lines.

Mission goals were a ridiculous parody. A sham show most people eventually understood was a sham. The new missionaries and those who were (ironically) the most faithful and most trusting of leadership never realized that no one actually expected to meet the goals and beat themselves to pieces over it.

I remember one time my Zone and District and companionship met all our goals. We had worked really hard but we had worked hard before. It was a statistical fluke. We got lucky. We went to our meeting happy. We got to report success and were pretty much the only ones doing it. Following the Zone Leader happily reporting the results he went on to talk about how next month we were going to do even better and how we had to stretch ourselves even more. All the excited air went out of the room. It was back to being a sham. Mouthing words no one expected to happen to try to “inspire”.

[The Nehor]

56 minutes ago, stelf said:

This definitely resonates with me. I remember hearing lessons and talk from mission presidents and the office elders about this very thing. They even went so far as to say that if you don't leave your apartment by 9 am sharp, you could miss someone that you were supposed to talk to and they would lose out on eternal blessings. I basically spent two years feeling like there was no hope I would ever measure up.  These were not internal things I initially put on myself, but I definitely did internalize a lot of these teachings. It's been hard to extricate myself from them.

Yep. Ironically it is the missionaries who didn’t take this seriously who were more emotionally and psychologically healthy. The image of God as an all-consuming monster devouring everything you do and always insisting you failed and need to do better is a common one. Even if you succeed you then think you have to maintain that performance perpetually (probably impossible) and even always do better. A lot of church leaders preach this version of God. You can make a case for him being in the scriptures. You can also make a case for that God being an idol.

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Senator said:

So the pressing question is, what role does the church have in fomenting toxic perfectionism?  (and no I don't have time to read all the articles yet) 

It probably doesn’t have as much as expected since rates of toxic perfection go down with higher religious involvement. (See the quotes of the study if tldr)

Edited March 11 by Calm