marineland Posted January 13 Posted January 13 I made a comment to @longview a few days ago but the thread was closed to further replies so a followup could not be posted - so I create a new topic to continue that discussion. On 01/07/2025, you said Quote So "our Earth" probably was the last of the concurrent earths to be subjected to the Fall for this creative generation. For several reasons: 1- all the concurrent earths were allowed to enter into the FALL; 2- God permitted the FALL in order to implement the Plan of Redemption (initiation of mortality and the Second Estate); 3- if God had imposed the punishment too soon then NOT all the earths would have been influenced into making the FALL; 4- because ALL of the earths made the critical step for the FALL, then could God finally impose the punishment on Lucifer (like after the fact). [Some church leaders have referred to this as being the "Fortunate Fall."] Because Lucifer was punished on "our Earth", that implies ALL the concurrent earths were successfully transitioned to the Plan of Redemption. Therefore "our Earth" had to be the last to make that leap into mortality. Regarding your reason #3 - if God had imposed the punishment too soon then NOT all the earths would have been influenced into making the FALL" Earlier you said, "Lucifer is stunned and rages at God saying: "Why am I being punished for doing the same things as on other worlds?" Those supposed words of Lucifer implies he had already initiated the Fall on all the other worlds and "our Earth" is possibly the last in the series. Or that disobedience on all these other worlds were punished after the fact (years, decades, or centuries later) and then those Adams and Eves would have need to be reminded of why they were waiting all this time for being expelled from their Gardens. The Fall on earth #1 did not influence the Fall on earth #2 and so forth. The idea that Lucifer being punished on "our Earth" would not have caused him to also lead the respective Adams and Eves on all the earths created before and after "our Earth" is not in line with his character. It would also lead one to believe Adam and Eve being led to eat from the forbidden tree on "our Earth" is a punishment for Adam and Eve (Alma 42) whereas the same actions on all the other earths (before "our Earth") were not but the earths after "our Earth" were. Maybe all these other worlds have their own version of the second article of faith: "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression". Regarding your reason #4 - because ALL of the earths made the critical step for the FALL, then could God finally impose the punishment on Lucifer. There is nothing in scripture to indicate the one and only punishment for Lucifer was for his causing the Fall on "our Earth". Somewhere I read that LDS prophets and apostles have also spoken about other worlds created by Heavenly Father. President Brigham Young and Elder Neal A. Maxwell discussed the vastness of God's creations, including worlds that have fulfilled their purpose and entered into their celestial state. So here we have the potential for other earths before "our Earth" who have already entered their celestial state even before Lucifer is punished on "our Earth". Their entering a celestial state before "our Earth" is not possible because according to your reason #3, God had not yet imposed the punishment on them (mortality) but they had still been influenced into making the Fall without being influenced by all the other earths.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 13 Posted January 13 2 hours ago, marineland said: I made a comment to @longview a few days ago but the thread was closed to further replies so a followup could not be posted - so I create a new topic to continue that discussion. ............................. all the earths ..................... other worlds?"............ other worlds ........................ earth #1 ............ earth #2 .............all the other earths .......... other worlds ........... ALL of the earths ................ There is only one planet Earth, and other worlds have their own names, just as they have their own saviors. The Plan of Salvation is the same throughout eternity and throughout the universe, on an infinity of worlds. Brigham Young stated in April of 1852, in a sermon in Salt Lake City, that, of the various deities which exist, one "is our father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do" (Journal of Discourses, 1:50; cf. Paul in I Cor 8:5-6). In his FARMS Preliminary Report N-APO, "Apocryphal Writings," p. 13 (Long Beach, Calif., 1968), Hugh Nibley interprets the meaning underlying many sorts of this class of writing, and notes that Quote All the worlds are organized in a common pattern, . . in all the worlds you will find God alone rules but with a presidency of three and a council of twelve. This is the rule of all worlds. The repetitions are infinite in number and scope . . . . As a Yeu becomes a Father, the Father then appoints new Yeus (Jehovahs) for new worlds who in turn become Fathers, etc. (cf. First Jeu 48:8; 50:1-3; 97:25-28; Pistis Sophia I, 91, 94; III, 285, 319, 329-330; IV, 355:15,23, 370:10,19,24). See C. Schmidt & V. MacDermot, Books of Jeu (Leiden: Brill, 1978). 2 hours ago, marineland said: There is nothing in scripture to indicate the one and only punishment for Lucifer was for his causing the Fall on "our Earth". ................ The Serpent in the Creation & Garden Story is merely a player in a liturgical drama. His role is essential, in accordance with Lehi's Law of Opposites (2 Ne 2). His punishment is symbolic. 2
Dario_M Posted January 14 Posted January 14 (edited) What other earths are we talking about then if i may be so free to ask. Earths that lay in another galaxy? And where has this information been scripted? For all i know their could be aliens on those other earths👽 How do i need to understand this? That several worlds (earth) has the same human kind in it? (However..i'm going to bed again, it's still early here.) Edited January 14 by Dario_M
Calm Posted January 14 Posted January 14 (edited) Dario, There is more speculation out there than revelation, imo. Of scripture, there isn’t much, but there is this beautiful passage in the Book of Moses that talks of many worlds God created. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/moses/1?lang=eng#title1 Quote 27 And it came to pass, as the voice was still speaking, Moses cast his eyes and beheld the earth, yea, even all of it; and there was not a particle of it which he did not behold, discerning it by the Spirit of God. 28 And he beheld also the inhabitants thereof, and there was not a soul which he beheld not; and he discerned them by the Spirit of God; and their numbers were great, even numberless as the sand upon the sea shore. 29 And he beheld many lands; and each land was called earth, and there were inhabitants on the face thereof. 30 And it came to pass that Moses called upon God, saying: Tell me, I pray thee, why these things are so, and by what thou madest them? 31 And behold, the glory of the Lord was upon Moses, so that Moses stood in the presence of God, and talked with him face to face. And the Lord God said unto Moses: For mine own purpose have I made these things. Here is wisdom and it remaineth in me. 32 And by the word of my power, have I created them, which is mine Only Begotten Son, who is full of grace and truth. 33 And worlds without number have I created; and I also created them for mine own purpose; and by the Son I created them, which is mine Only Begotten. 34 And the first man of all men have I called Adam, which is many. 35 But only an account of this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, give I unto you. For behold, there are many worlds that have passed away by the word of my power. And there are many that now stand, and innumerable are they unto man; but all things are numbered unto me, for they are mine and I know them. 36 And it came to pass that Moses spake unto the Lord, saying: Be merciful unto thy servant, O God, and tell me concerning this earth, and the inhabitants thereof, and also the heavens, and then thy servant will be content. 37 And the Lord God spake unto Moses, saying: The heavens, they are many, and they cannot be numbered unto man; but they are numbered unto me, for they are mine. 38 And as one earth shall pass away, and the heavens thereof even so shall another come; and there is no end to my works, neither to my words. 39 For behold, this is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man. 40 And now, Moses, my son, I will speak unto thee concerning this earth upon which thou standest; and thou shalt writethe things which I shall speak. See here for context: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2013/08/worlds-without-number?lang=eng#title1 The emphasis is more on God the Father Creator and Jehovah our Saviour and Creator rather than what was created (except in regards to this earth) such as this video: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/media/video/2011-03-0012-christ-the-creator?lang=eng Edited January 15 by Calm 2
blackstrap Posted January 14 Posted January 14 35 minutes ago, Calm said: innumerable are they unto man Innumerable because we don't know about any others ? OK Otherwise , we can make some VERY large numbers using our numbering system.
JVW Posted January 14 Posted January 14 17 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: There is only one planet Earth, and other worlds have their own names, just as they have their own saviors. The Plan of Salvation is the same throughout eternity and throughout the universe, on an infinity of worlds. Brigham Young stated in April of 1852, in a sermon in Salt Lake City, that, of the various deities which exist, one "is our father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do" (Journal of Discourses, 1:50; cf. Paul in I Cor 8:5-6). In his FARMS Preliminary Report N-APO, "Apocryphal Writings," p. 13 (Long Beach, Calif., 1968), Hugh Nibley interprets the meaning underlying many sorts of this class of writing, and notes that The Serpent in the Creation & Garden Story is merely a player in a liturgical drama. His role is essential, in accordance with Lehi's Law of Opposites (2 Ne 2). His punishment is symbolic. Was Satan necessary for the Fall to occur and for God's plan to move forward? Would God's plan have been frustrated at any point if one of His spirit children did not rebel and become the fallen angel? I personally lean towards believing that Satan is not necessary for God's plan. I think that the natural man provides plenty of temptation without Satan and his angels working. And I think, due to the portrayal of the temple, that given enough time Eve and Adam could have reasoned their way into transgressing, which in the case of the fall I do not view as a sin. I agree with this quote from Elder Oaks Quote “This suggested contrast between a sin and a transgression reminds us of the careful wording in the second article of faith: ‘We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression’ (emphasis added). It also echoes a familiar distinction in the law. Some acts, like murder, are crimes because they are inherently wrong. Other acts, like operating without a license, are crimes only because they are legally prohibited. Under these distinctions, the act that produced the Fall was not a sin—inherently wrong—but a transgression—wrong because it was formally prohibited. These words are not always used to denote something different, but this distinction seems meaningful in the circumstances of the Fall.” --“The Great Plan of Happiness,” Ensign, Nov. 1993, 72. 1
SkyRock Posted January 14 Posted January 14 Did Satan need to tempt Adam & Eve for the Fall to happen? On other worlds, did the Fall happen without Satan's intervention? Or did, at some point, the Adam & Eve equilavents realize they needed to eat the fruit to progress, rather than be tempted to do so?
longview Posted January 14 Posted January 14 22 hours ago, marineland said: I made a comment to @longview a few days ago but the thread was closed to further replies so a followup could not be posted - so I create a new topic to continue that discussion. On 01/07/2025, you said Regarding your reason #3 - if God had imposed the punishment too soon then NOT all the earths would have been influenced into making the FALL" Earlier you said, "Lucifer is stunned and rages at God saying: "Why am I being punished for doing the same things as on other worlds?" Those supposed words of Lucifer implies he had already initiated the Fall on all the other worlds and "our Earth" is possibly the last in the series. Or that disobedience on all these other worlds were punished after the fact (years, decades, or centuries later) and then those Adams and Eves would have need to be reminded of why they were waiting all this time for being expelled from their Gardens. As I have indicated in the other thread, I believe time is perceived differently within Celestial Time, Terrestrial Time, and our mortal frame of reference. It is taught that God can see "all" of time. In other words He can see through the corner BUT we are unable to see around the corner. This is why God is able to prophesy even down to the most minute detail and NOT one jot or tittle of His Words will fail to come to pass. 22 hours ago, marineland said: The Fall on earth #1 did not influence the Fall on earth #2 and so forth. The idea that Lucifer being punished on "our Earth" would not have caused him to also lead the respective Adams and Eves on all the earths created before and after "our Earth" is not in line with his character. Because the Garden of Eden on each of the concurrent worlds were in the Terrestrial State, there was no need for Lucifer and his fallen angels to do any coordinating/synchronizing efforts to deceive the respective Adams and Eves. I suppose Lucifer could easily split up his host into "innumerable" teams to cover all the concurrent worlds. OR the teams eachcould have worked handful of worlds. I confess I do not understand what you mean by the phrase: "is not in line with his character." 22 hours ago, marineland said: It would also lead one to believe Adam and Eve being led to eat from the forbidden tree on"our Earth" is a punishment for Adam and Eve ( Alma 42 ) whereas the same actions on all the other earths (before"our Earth") were not but the earths after "our Earth" were. Maybe all these other worlds have their own version of the second article of faith: "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression". I am concerned that you do NOT understand the distinctions between sin/transgression and punishment/choices and being under the law or not. Please reference @JVW quote of Elder Oaks. Kudos to you for referencing Alma 42. It is a masterful and inspired discourse on the meaning and provisions of the Plan of Redemption. Please continue to study the chapter intensively. In the other thread I explained that all concurrent worlds are subject to the same Plan of Redemption. 22 hours ago, marineland said: Regarding your reason #4 - because ALL of the earths made the critical step for the FALL, then could God finally impose the punishment on Lucifer. There is nothing in scripture to indicate the one and only punishment for Lucifer was for his causing the Fall on "our Earth". Lucifer and his angels were punished many times and in different ways: for wanting to be the "savior" in the stead of Jesus and imposing a "one size fits all" and "equal participation award" socialism for ALL spirit children. for wanting to exalt himself above Heavenly Father. For this the devils were cast out of His presence. for fighting the Plan of Redemption. The devils denied themselves the opportunity for obtaining physicals bodies and eventual resurrection. for thinking (erroneously) that they could subvert the Plan of Redemption by beguiling Adams and Eves into eating the forbidden fruit. (The punishment: ELOHIM: Lucifer, because thou hast done this, thou shalt be cursed above all the beasts of the field. Upon thy belly thou shalt go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life. @Robert F. Smith can supply his interpretation of the symbolism of this punishment). We could go on and on for more punishments. 22 hours ago, marineland said: Somewhere I read that LDS prophets and apostles have also spoken about other worlds created by Heavenly Father. President Brigham Young and Elder Neal A. Maxwell discussed the vastness of God's creations, including worlds that have fulfilled their purpose and entered into their celestial state. So here we have the potential for other earths before "our Earth" who have already entered their celestial state even before Lucifer is punished on "our Earth". Their entering a celestial state before "our Earth" is not possible because according to your reason #3, God had not yet imposed the punishment on them (mortality) but they had still been influenced into making the Fall without being influenced by all the other earths. Events in Terrestrial Time need not be correlated to mortal time.
Calm Posted January 14 Posted January 14 57 minutes ago, SkyRock said: Did Satan need to tempt Adam & Eve for the Fall to happen? On other worlds, did the Fall happen without Satan's intervention? Or did, at some point, the Adam & Eve equilavents realize they needed to eat the fruit to progress, rather than be tempted to do so? Are you looking for revealed answers? Those I don’t think we have. Speculation otoh…..giving of fruit could have been done without a Lucifer, imo…as a choice by Adam and Eve going to God and saying ‘we wish to progress in this way and realize that to do so we have to partake of the fruit which is forbidden’ and God giving it to them. I don’t believe it is just to punish someone who fulfills a necessary role. There needs to be an option, a reason why something doesn’t need to be done in order for punishment for doing something is just..even if God knows the person is going to do it due to his foreknowledge (whatever that is). Doing something right for the wrong reason deserves education, counseling, etc, not punishment imo. I also believe the commandment not to eat of the fruit is not something arbitrary as in God knew the Fall needed to be triggered by a transgression, so he forbid the fruit even though it didn’t have to be. I think whatever was forbidden was an inherent transgression and not just because God said so. To me transgressions are things that move us away from God. They are considered breaking of God’s laws because God’s whole purpose, his work and his glory, is to have his family be with him and anything that takes his children further from him and others in his family is therefore a transgression, even if in the long run it means we can come back to him and be more one with him and his family than ever before. More speculation… The temple ceremony is to me a symbolic description of whatever actually happens in the progression of God’s spirit children to physical beings. Whether the temple ritual itself is performed on each world as well, I am not choosing to speculate on except to say if it is, it might be a very different ceremonial presentation even if teaching the same principles because other earths would have different cultural languages and symbols.
Calm Posted January 14 Posted January 14 (edited) 40 minutes ago, longview said: As I have indicated in the other thread, I believe time is perceived differently within Celestial Time, Terrestrial Time, and our mortal frame of reference. So in your reconstruction (trying to think of a useful word for what we are doing here), Lucifer wouldn’t have perceived it as much time passed between his giving of the fruit on any of the worlds and his punishment? Or is Lucifer in a different Time state than God, so for him much time passed? Edited January 14 by Calm
Calm Posted January 14 Posted January 14 43 minutes ago, longview said: or wanting to be the "savior" in the stead of Jesus and imposing a "one size fits all" and "equal participation award" socialism for ALL spirit children. I don’t believe he was punished for these things, but for his act of rebellion. Sure it was his greed for glory which he wanted to get that led to his rebellion, but if he had accepted his rejection as the saviour and supported Christ instead, would the above have merited punishment?
Teancum Posted January 14 Posted January 14 On 1/13/2025 at 3:36 PM, marineland said: I made a comment to @longview a few days ago but the thread was closed to further replies so a followup could not be posted - so I create a new topic to continue that discussion. On 01/07/2025, you said Regarding your reason #3 - if God had imposed the punishment too soon then NOT all the earths would have been influenced into making the FALL" Earlier you said, "Lucifer is stunned and rages at God saying: "Why am I being punished for doing the same things as on other worlds?" Those supposed words of Lucifer implies he had already initiated the Fall on all the other worlds and "our Earth" is possibly the last in the series. Or that disobedience on all these other worlds were punished after the fact (years, decades, or centuries later) and then those Adams and Eves would have need to be reminded of why they were waiting all this time for being expelled from their Gardens. The Fall on earth #1 did not influence the Fall on earth #2 and so forth. The idea that Lucifer being punished on "our Earth" would not have caused him to also lead the respective Adams and Eves on all the earths created before and after "our Earth" is not in line with his character. It would also lead one to believe Adam and Eve being led to eat from the forbidden tree on "our Earth" is a punishment for Adam and Eve (Alma 42) whereas the same actions on all the other earths (before "our Earth") were not but the earths after "our Earth" were. Maybe all these other worlds have their own version of the second article of faith: "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression". Regarding your reason #4 - because ALL of the earths made the critical step for the FALL, then could God finally impose the punishment on Lucifer. There is nothing in scripture to indicate the one and only punishment for Lucifer was for his causing the Fall on "our Earth". Somewhere I read that LDS prophets and apostles have also spoken about other worlds created by Heavenly Father. President Brigham Young and Elder Neal A. Maxwell discussed the vastness of God's creations, including worlds that have fulfilled their purpose and entered into their celestial state. So here we have the potential for other earths before "our Earth" who have already entered their celestial state even before Lucifer is punished on "our Earth". Their entering a celestial state before "our Earth" is not possible because according to your reason #3, God had not yet imposed the punishment on them (mortality) but they had still been influenced into making the Fall without being influenced by all the other earths. How does @longviewknow about our earth being the last one to fall? This seems all like wild speculation based on a religious belief that has no basis in actual science and what we know about the Universe.
Calm Posted January 14 Posted January 14 28 minutes ago, Teancum said: How does @longviewknow about our earth being the last one to fall? This seems all like wild speculation based on a religious belief that has no basis in actual science and what we know about the Universe. This is what he said on the locked thread….an aside : I assume it was locked for explicit temple language, but maybe use of a certain website? The language itself wasn’t removed that I saw. Quote I have received many intimations and sometimes "sudden strokes of inspiration" over my lifetime [I am in my seventies]. My first major influence began back in the Sixties with reading many church books and deep meditations in my scripture studies. Cleon Skousen was a huge influence. Temple worship is an important source of inspiration. Frequent prayers help tremendously. 1
longview Posted January 15 Posted January 15 On 1/13/2025 at 4:46 PM, Robert F. Smith said: His role is essential, in accordance with Lehi's Law of Opposites ( 2 Ne 2 ). His punishment is symbolic. I agree. However, Lehi used the term opposition. NOT opposites. That is an important distinction.
Calm Posted January 15 Posted January 15 3 minutes ago, longview said: That is an important distinction. Yes!
longview Posted January 15 Posted January 15 6 hours ago, Calm said: Or is Lucifer in a different Time state than God, so for him much time passed? My speculation is that Lucifer and his angels and all the concurrent worlds were operating on Terrestrial Time. Of course God is seeing all times and kingdoms from His Celestial Sphere. I don't know if Adam or Eve even thought about the passage of time Terrestrial or otherwise. Did they need to sleep at all? I suppose they could watch animals get pregnant and eventually give birth and nurture them. Since they were involved in gardening, they probably were planting seeds and cultivating growing plants and transplanting.
Robert F. Smith Posted January 15 Posted January 15 10 hours ago, SkyRock said: Did Satan need to tempt Adam & Eve for the Fall to happen? On other worlds, did the Fall happen without Satan's intervention? Or did, at some point, the Adam & Eve equilavents realize they needed to eat the fruit to progress, rather than be tempted to do so? Needs, wishes, and speculation don't apply to liturgy. The liturgy contains set oaths and covenants within ritual drama. All those present are adam & eve (lowercase) and all participate in the drama. The ordinances contain the serpent and other actors because that is part of the ritual drama. Job is another ritual drama in which Satan directly participates. Satan, which means "Adverary," is playing the role of the Prosecutor, just as he does in confronting and testing Jesus in the Wilderness. The tests are real, even if they are required ritual. 1
Robert F. Smith Posted January 15 Posted January 15 3 hours ago, longview said: I agree. However, Lehi used the term opposition. NOT opposites. That is an important distinction. A distinction without a difference. 2 NEPHI 2:11-30 OPPOSITES righteousness wickedness holiness, happiness misery, punishment good, righteousness, joy bad, evil, sin, misery free agency, moral agency, act compound in one (one body), be acted upon alive dead life death incorruption corruption sense insensibility eternal purpose, wisdom of God thing of nought power, mercy, justice of God no purpose, no law, no sin God no God (2 Nephi 2:13; Alma 42:13,22,25) existence non-existence sweet bitter truth lies liberty, eternal life captivity, death, hell the great Mediator the Devil
Robert F. Smith Posted January 15 Posted January 15 On 1/13/2025 at 1:36 PM, marineland said: .......................... ............., God had not yet imposed the punishment on them (mortality) .......... Mortality is not punishment, but a key part of the divine plan agreed to by everyone in the Divine Council -- except Satan and his followers. 2
Calm Posted January 15 Posted January 15 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: distinction without a difference. There are other opposites that don’t convey opposition though, just relationship or contrast: up-down, back-forward, in-out, black-white, cold-hot, smooth-rough (textures), hairy-bald, etc Edited January 15 by Calm
Teancum Posted January 15 Posted January 15 14 hours ago, Calm said: This is what he said on the locked thread….an aside : I assume it was locked for explicit temple language, but maybe use of a certain website? The language itself wasn’t removed that I saw. So we should take @longview's alleged "sudden strokes of inspiration" over solid scientific evidence? How silly. This is why I think so called personal revelation is fairly useless to us and unreliable. And it give the person an idea that they have some special knowledge that really is simply generated by their own brains.
Calm Posted January 15 Posted January 15 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Teancum said: So we should take @longview's alleged "sudden strokes of inspiration" over solid scientific evidence? How silly. This is why I think so called personal revelation is fairly useless to us and unreliable. Longview will have to speak to whether he sees his inspiration as contributing to his more exclusive claims in other topics. I think in this and the previous thread he has made a distinction in how he approaches such, even labeling it speculation at time and I am not seeing any insistence by him that righteousness means adopting his inspired ideas. But perhaps he could share how he groups things and why in turns of giving priority to different forms of knowledge. Quote And it give the person an idea that they have some special knowledge… This happens a lot outside of religion, though with a variety of methods. It’s easily seen with the Internet, but existed long before from what I could see. Special, superior knowledge and talents could be conferred on people because of religion, but also because of economic class, race, sex, etc. Knowledge and understanding that only certain groups were capable of understanding, sometimes the rationale was it was bred into them from a long family line of whatever… In the past, attaching the claim of God given did tend to get one more respect…if believed, so people who wanted to be seen as powerful or having authority might go that route. Doesn’t mean we should automatically exclude the possibility of God given knowledge or authority. The recognition that the label adds credibility, authority may be a result of actual cases where people saw what they understood were god given attributes, gifts, ideas and saw positive outcomes from them. Edited January 15 by Calm
Teancum Posted January 15 Posted January 15 1 hour ago, Calm said: Longview will have to speak to whether he sees his inspiration as contributing to his more exclusive claims in other topics. I think in this and the previous thread he has made a distinction in how he approaches such, even labeling it speculation at time and I am not seeing any insistence by him that righteousness means adopting his inspired ideas. But perhaps he could share how he groups things and why in turns of giving priority to different forms of knowledge. Sure he is welcome to clarify. I have tagged him in two posts so he can respond if he wished. 1 hour ago, Calm said: This happens a lot outside of religion, though with a variety of methods. It’s easily seen with the Internet, but existed long before from what I could see. Special, superior knowledge and talents could be conferred on people because of religion, but also because of economic class, race, sex, etc. Knowledge and understanding that only certain groups were capable of understanding, sometimes the rationale was it was bred into them from a long family line of whatever… All the more reason to approach such things with a lot of skepticism. 1 hour ago, Calm said: In the past, attaching the claim of God given did tend to get one more respect…if believed, so people who wanted to be seen as powerful or having authority might go that route. A lot of people over the history of human kind have been dupped by those claiming to speak for a god 1 hour ago, Calm said: Doesn’t mean we should automatically exclude the possibility of God given knowledge or authority. The recognition that the label adds credibility, authority may be a result of actual cases where people saw what they understood were god given attributes, gifts, ideas and saw positive outcomes from them. Since anyone can claim god given knowledge and even authority and expect adherents to take it on faith it seem prudent to approach such claims with a lot of skepticism and critical thinking skills. 1
longview Posted January 15 Posted January 15 17 hours ago, Teancum said: How does @longviewknow about our earth being the last one to fall? This seems all like wild speculation based on a religious belief that has no basis in actual science and what we know about the Universe. I outlined my reasonings in the other thread. It is apparent that you skimmed thru that part very quickly. I would invite you review that part more carefully. No basis? With reference to God, ALL science is a subset of Eternal Truths. Mortals only know a tiny subset of science. You probably are aware of the possibility of more dimensions beyond the four we are able to perceive: height, width, depth, time. Mathematicians represent objects with three axes x, y, z. On paper they can draw x and y lines that are perfectly orthogonal (90 degrees from each other). With the third axis z it is awkward because it has to go thru the intersection of the x and y lines AND be vertical to the plane (surface of the paper). But the z axis can be represented on paper by drawing an oblique line thru the intersection point. Three dimensional objects can be drawn reasonably well using various points along the three axes on paper. Time is more difficult. It would easier to display the passage of time for an object on the computer screen. Mathematicians are able to represent many more dimensions (with axes ALL orthogonal to each other) with consistent and provable equations and formulas. Some cosmologists theorize of a 26 dimensional universe. Consider the cell complex. It was not that long ago that biologists thought much of the DNA was "junk." But they keep finding more and more identifiable functions in the DNA strands. The cell structure contains many astonishing mechanisms for carrying out all sorts of functions. It is like a very sophisticated computer system. Thus pointing more strongly to an "intelligent designer." I challenge you to read Stephen C. Meyer's book "Return of the God Hypothesis" with his many powerfully reasoned observations (not your ordinary run of the mill creationist).
longview Posted January 15 Posted January 15 9 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: 13 hours ago, longview said: I agree. However, Lehi used the term opposition. NOT opposites. That is an important distinction. A distinction without a difference. 2 NEPHI 2:11-30 OPPOSITES righteousness wickedness holiness, happiness misery, punishment good, righteousness, joy bad, evil, sin, misery free agency, moral agency, act compound in one (one body), be acted upon Your tabular list are NOT polar opposites. Men are NOT totally righteous, neither are men completely wicked. It is possible to be joyful and happy, even in the midst of misery. The moral agency to ACT is also the moral agency to allow the self to be ACTED UPON. Not polar opposites but a broad spectrum of possible choices and experiences that are possible in mortality. Both the righteous and the wicked can be all over the different spectrums to some degree or other. President Hinckley talked of choices we can make that are either good, better or best. Sometimes the most righteous person might take the "good" choice (instead of the best he would normally do) in order to better minister to the troubled soul. Lehi was saying that happiness is NOT possible if misery was not experienced to some degree. I think Lehi's use of the word compound refers to conglomeration of all kinds of experiences. God said: "the earth shall be cursed for thy sake (paradoxical blessings). Instead of producing fruits and flowers spontaneously, it shall bring forth thorns, thistles, briars, and noxious weeds to afflict and torment man; and by the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat thy bread all the days of thy life, for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return."
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