An examination of the test.

[tana]

I've always been a bit fascinated with trying to imagine the actual logistics of how things in a deity based existence theory could work. Take for instance the merit/reward and punishment aspect. How can it work?

For it to work, it is going to have to be absolutely fair, un-biased and extremely precise. First off, god himself really isn't doing any judging. I mean, it's not like god is similar to a municipal court judge, who listens to the evidence and then makes a ruling. Facts are facts. Everything has been recorded. There is no guesswork.

In my estimation, the only way it can work is if every act, non-act, thought, whatever - of every millisecond of a persons entire life is recorded and rated and assigned a value. An extremely complex algorithm is written by god. It is so complex the machine to run it takes up an entire spirit-land stake center gymnasium. The last part though is the easy part. A machine spits out a number for every conceivable thing it thinks needs a value assigned, then anyone with a calculator does the tally.

Examples: Little Jay, who is 8 years old steals a pack of gum from the local Dairy Mart. -2 values. Little John, Jay's identical twin, separated at birth, raised by a family of thieves, steals a pack of gum. -1. Jean, another twin, steals a pack, gets caught, lies about it convincingly, later feels guilty and returns it. -2, -3.5, +2. Jack, twin, raised by fundamentalists, steals a pack. - Value pending -. See, this is where it gets sticky. God, knowing the little fellow has been subjected to - god's gonna destroy you - talk his entire life has to wait on this one. He can't know for sure yet if the kid is bad and will prob. need destroyed, or if the kid did it in an act of defiance. Contrary to popular belief god wrote into his algo. a reward for righteous defiance.

So, eventually we come to the finish line and are waiting to see if we made the cut. It's a very precise cut. It has nothing to do with mercy or austerity, only absolute fairness and a person could miss the cut by a billionth of a billionth of a percentage point. Mercy and austerity are relative.  God can't just let someone in because they're really close and he's in a good mood. If he lets them in he has just simply lowered the bar for everyone.

Anyway - Happy trials

Edited December 21, 2024 by tana

[Benjamin McGuire]

Why on earth do you think that the test has to be fair? Those who spend the least amount of time in mortality get the free pass to Celestial glory, right? That's a pretty low bar. The way that I read 2 Nephi 2, we only have limited agency in our lives. Those choices we make when we aren't fully exercising our agency have no real impact on our post-mortal condition. And for us to exercise agency means that we are free from coercion, that we have sufficient knowledge to choose, and that we have been given some understanding of the consequences of our choices. For many, the number of choices that might have a significant impact on the post mortal condition could be very, very few.

[tana]

7 minutes ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

Why on earth do you think that the test has to be fair? Those who spend the least amount of time in mortality get the free pass to Celestial glory, right? That's a pretty low bar. The way that I read 2 Nephi 2, we only have limited agency in our lives. Those choices we make when we aren't fully exercising our agency have no real impact on our post-mortal condition. And for us to exercise agency means that we are free from coercion, that we have sufficient knowledge to choose, and that we have been given some understanding of the consequences of our choices. For many, the number of choices that might have a significant impact on the post mortal condition could be very, very few.

Well, it seems to me the writings say that the pre world was also a testing station, as is the post mortal where spirits are taught the gospel in prison. So, I guess just another algorithm to decide who goes where and how difficult their next test is. Eventually tho there has to be a final reckoning where a yardstick has been established.

[Benjamin McGuire]

Just now, tana said:

Eventually tho there has to be a final reckoning where a yardstick has been established.

I am not convinced.

As President J. Reuben Clark said:

Quote

I am not a strict constructionalist, believing that we seal our eternal progress by what we do here. It is my belief that God will save all of His children that he can: and while, if we live unrighteously here, we shall not go to the other side in the same status, so to speak, as those who lived righteously; nevertheless, the unrighteous will have their chance, and in the eons of the eternities that are to follow, they, too, may climb to the destinies to which they who are righteous and serve God, have climbed to those eternities that are to come.” - J. Reuben Clark, Church News, 23 April 1960, p. 3

In an eternal existence, the idea that there is some fixed point in time where everything is determined seems rather meaningless. Part of the whole point of the atonement was to point out that there is no merit calculation in our eternal destination. It cannot be earned. And, as in the parable of the laborers, some arrive much later than others (and as President Clark suggests, in an eternity, much later can mean just about anything), and do very little, yet the reward is the same. I think that our sense of fairness and justice is merely a fib that we tell ourselves to justify the inequalities we see all around us ...

[Calm]

1 hour ago, tana said:

n my estimation, the only way it can work is if every act, non-act, thought, whatever - of every millisecond of a persons entire life is recorded and rated and assigned a value. An extremely complex algorithm is written by god. It is so complex the machine to run it takes up an entire spirit-land stake center gymnasium. The last part though is the easy part. A machine spits out a number for every conceivable thing it thinks needs a value assigned, then anyone with a calculator does the tally.

My envisioned method is we are “punished” by living the same experiences we put others through when at some time after death, but before resurrection we share each others’ memories to such a degree it is as if we lived their lives. So the pain and suffering they experienced becomes our pain. And while some causes of the pain is likely healed or perhaps even all for those who accept the atonement, for those who haven’t fully accepted the atonement they won’t be able to comprehend what it is, so they will feel the pain even if the person who originally suffered it no longer does.

Doesn’t need any calculation because the experience is what matters, not how wrong or sinful something was.

However, the purpose of the sharing isn’t actually punishment, but learning. I don’t see justice as so important in an eternal sense that it justifies punishment that has no effect on someone save to make them suffer the torment that they ‘earned’ through bad deeds.  So one experiences the pain they caused others so they can learn that they should care about hurting others and therefore they no longer desire to sin in that way.

Edited December 21, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

13 minutes ago, Benjamin McGuire said:

. I think that our sense of fairness and justice is merely a fib that we tell ourselves to justify the inequalities we see all around us ...

And to make life bearable 

[tana]

Somehow, someway uncreated intelligences have ground floor personality issues. The writings say that God's job is to test, rate and sort them.

At some point, if one takes up the belief of some form of the Abrahamic religions there is the reality that some souls will receive eternal reward and some eternal punishment's. How that will be sorted out has always been fuzzy. It works best to not try to over analyze it I guess, and just go with the - god will sort it out in the end. God will look into their hearts.

But, even looking into hearts will have the same challenges. One would think that every heart is different, to the billionth of a billionth of a decimal place. And, there has to be a un-alterable, absolute cut line. I'm not in love with this concept of assigning values to behavior but, how else? And, there are definitely going to be people on the bubble no matter what scale or system God has in place.

[tana]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

My envisioned method is we are “punished” by living the same experiences we put others through when at some time after death, but before resurrection we share each others’ memories to such a degree it is as if we lived their lives. So the pain and suffering they experienced becomes our pain. And while some causes of the pain is likely healed or perhaps even all for those who accept the atonement, for those who haven’t fully accepted the atonement they won’t be able to comprehend what it is, so they will feel the pain even if the person who originally suffered it no longer does.

Doesn’t need any calculation because the experience is what matters, not how wrong or sinful something was.

However, the purpose of the sharing isn’t actually punishment, but learning. I don’t see justice as so important in an eternal sense that it justifies punishment that has no effect on someone save to make them suffer the torment that they ‘earned’ through bad deeds.  So one experiences the pain they caused others so they can learn that they should care about hurting others and therefore they no longer desire to sin in that way.

To me, LDS theory in it's strictest reading doesn't work because: there is an overseer in charge of testing, rating and sorting souls to permanent disposition, based on in essence one life,

 

Also, to me, Reincarnation doesn't work because you have souls moving through lives toward some goal with no designated overseer or system in place sorting out where people go next.

 

But if you mix the two then - LDS belief with it's pre-mortal, mortal, post-mortal and unlimited temporary eternal punishment stages - which is in essence reincarnation, then you're in business.

 

You could then have a plan with someone in charge of an automated system sending you off to experience some well deserved karma.

[Dario_M]

2 hours ago, tana said:

I've always been a bit fascinated with trying to imagine the actual logistics of how things in a deity based existence theory could work. Take for instance the merit/reward and punishment aspect. How can it work?

What kind of punishments are we talking about if i may be so free to ask? 

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

What kind of punishments are we talking about if i may be so free to ask? 

That is a very good question imo.  What will these punishments be?

[tana]

11 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

What kind of punishments are we talking about if i may be so free to ask? 

I guess that depends on which branch of the Abrahamic religions you find yourself in. Some say a place of actual physical torture. Some say mental torture. I believe the J. Witnesses say that the damned cease to exist. I'm not sure what Islamic theory believes.

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, tana said:

I'm not sure what Islamic theory believes.

Sounds much like Christian hell to me if wiki is accurate, though some claim it is temporary because of God’s mercy.

Quote

Punishment and suffering in Hell, in mainstream Islam, is physical, psychological, and spiritual, and varies according to the sins of the condemned person.[9][10] Its excruciating pain and horror described in the Qur'an often parallels the pleasure and delights of Jannah (paradise).[11][12] It is commonly believed by Muslims that confinement to hell is temporary for Muslims but not for others, although there are disagreements to this view[13][Note 1] and Muslim scholars disagree over whether Hell itself will last for eternity (the majority's view),[15][16] or whether God's mercy will lead to it eventually being eliminated.[17]

The common belief among Muslims holds that Jahannam coexists with the temporal world, just as Jannah does[18](rather than being created after Judgment Day). Hell is described physically in different ways by different sources of Islamic literature. It is enormous in size,[19][20] and located below Paradise.[21] It has seven levels, each one more severe than the one above it,[22][23][24][25][26] but it is also said to be a huge pit over which the bridge of As-Sirātcrosses and the resurrected walk.[27] It is said to have mountains, rivers, valleys and "even oceans" filled with disgusting fluids;[28] and also to be able to walk (controlled by reins),[29] and ask questions,[30] much like a sentient being.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jahannam

[ZealouslyStriving]

I have come to realize in the last few years that our judgement is about the progress we are making within our individual circumstances.

If we are striving to do the best the WE can, God will look with mercy on us. If we are wasting perfectly good opportunities to grow and learn through lack of effort, we'll have much more to answer for.

[Dario_M]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

That is a very good question imo.  What will these punishments be?

Yes right. I'm curious. 😉

[Dario_M]

1 hour ago, tana said:

I guess that depends on which branch of the Abrahamic religions you find yourself in.

The LDS doctrines offcourse. 😌

1 hour ago, tana said:

Some say a place of actual physical torture. Some say mental torture. I believe the J. Witnesses say that the damned cease to exist. I'm not sure what Islamic theory believes.

What do we LDS community members know and believe about punishments when we do things wrong in life actually? So far, the LDS church hasn't been clear on that. I've never been taught by the church what kind of punisments we may expect when doing something wrong. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I have come to realize in the last few years that our judgement is about the progress we are making within our individual circumstances.

If we are striving to do the best the WE can, God will look with mercy on us. If we are wasting perfectly good opportunities to grow and learn through lack of effort, we'll have much more to answer for.

Yes, I think this is likely close to what judgment will be, though I might view what is “lack of effort” and what is the “best” that we can do differently than you do (just guessing based on my experiences with others because I don’t believe we have talked about it much).

Edited December 21, 2024 by Calm

[let’s roll]

My shorthand description of post mortal glory and punishment.

Life eternal is to know Deity well enough to join them in their work—creation and salvation of worlds and souls.  Hard work which many won’t want, or be able, to do.  Which is why scripture assures us ALL will agree His judgements are just.  We will be keenly aware of whether we are both willing and able to do the work of Deity.

The flip side is damnation, which can be understood to mean anyone not willing or able to join in the work of Deity.  I believe we will be able to increase in both willingness and ability post mortality so don’t believe judgement is static.  The pain and suffering associated with damnation, I believe, arises from, and abides, within us.  A clearer understanding of Divine love and our continuing choice to not fully embrace that love (think of Mufasa’s wise admonition “you are more than you’ve become” 🙂) can be the foundation of a misery that some may choose to abide in forever.  Mortality has given us the opportunity to experience the pain of living without Divine light and direction and to witness the depths that some reach…hopelessness isn’t inflicted on us by an angry God, it is a choice.

[ZealouslyStriving]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

Yes, I think this is likely close to what judgment will be, though I might view what is “lack of effort” and what is the “best” that we can do differently than you do (just guessing based on my experiences with others because I don’t believe we have talked about it much).

Without derailing too much, let's discuss what you might view as the perceived differences.

I think you will find me much more merciful than you or others may perceive me based on our interactions on this particular board.

Edited December 21, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[CV75]

9 hours ago, tana said:

Somehow, someway uncreated intelligences have ground floor personality issues. The writings say that God's job is to test, rate and sort them.

At some point, if one takes up the belief of some form of the Abrahamic religions there is the reality that some souls will receive eternal reward and some eternal punishment's. How that will be sorted out has always been fuzzy. It works best to not try to over analyze it I guess, and just go with the - god will sort it out in the end. God will look into their hearts.

But, even looking into hearts will have the same challenges. One would think that every heart is different, to the billionth of a billionth of a decimal place. And, there has to be a un-alterable, absolute cut line. I'm not in love with this concept of assigning values to behavior but, how else? And, there are definitely going to be people on the bubble no matter what scale or system God has in place.

The scriptural term "added upon" indicates there is no never-ending punishment or retrograde, just progress, whether fast, slow or none. What we call "punishment" (and there are varied semantics and contexts to the term) feeds into progress if we are willing.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

think you will find me much more merciful than you or others may perceive me based on our interactions on this particular board.

That is not what I meant to imply.  My apologies. My experiences are just that everyone comes to “what is best effort” by a different path, their own experiences so there is a lot of variation in description and nuances, even if a very general way of describing it is the same.

[tana]

Gods job is to assess uncreated intelligences. To do this he needs a procedure. It is illogical to me that he can just look into the souls heart and see what it consists of, like, pulling out a chip and studying the schematic. Even if he can read minds he is just reading passing thoughts which are irrelevant to his task. The only way to test them is to see how they behave. He then keeps track of how they behave. He assigns values to behavior. Murder is worse than littering. 

 

Whether he keeps track simply in his mind, on his fingers, with an abacus or pen and paper doesn't matter. He must keep track over the lifetime of the subject. The algorithm is written to give more weight to the later years when the subject is more mature, but less weight to deathbed conversions. Mercy is relative, and therefore irrelevant. Subjects receive a final score. Since humans tend to be mostly good at heart, the majority will be hovering on the bubble between Terrestrial and Celestial. Some will miss the cut by a whisker. That will suck.

 

Because of the razor cut off problem, where one guy gets reward and another gets punishment because he cursed one too many times, I have a judgement based existence system in the - ain't gonna happen column. ymmv

[CV75]

1 hour ago, tana said:

Gods job is to assess uncreated intelligences. To do this he needs a procedure. It is illogical to me that he can just look into the souls heart and see what it consists of, like, pulling out a chip and studying the schematic. Even if he can read minds he is just reading passing thoughts which are irrelevant to his task. The only way to test them is to see how they behave. He then keeps track of how they behave. He assigns values to behavior. Murder is worse than littering. 

 

Whether he keeps track simply in his mind, on his fingers, with an abacus or pen and paper doesn't matter. He must keep track over the lifetime of the subject. The algorithm is written to give more weight to the later years when the subject is more mature, but less weight to deathbed conversions. Mercy is relative, and therefore irrelevant. Subjects receive a final score. Since humans tend to be mostly good at heart, the majority will be hovering on the bubble between Terrestrial and Celestial. Some will miss the cut by a whisker. That will suck.

 

Because of the razor cut off problem, where one guy gets reward and another gets punishment because he cursed one too many times, I have a judgement based existence system in the - ain't gonna happen column. ymmv

I would instead say that God's job is to have joy. Part of that is creating joy for others like Him (uncreated intelligences) as in Moses 1:39. This entails placing intelligence to act within a sphere (D&C 93: 30, Abraham 3: 24 - 26). "Judgement" means to rule, or preside in such as way as to maximally preserve agency and allow the free choice of exaltation and condemnation and everything between; of reward and punishment and anything between, in consequence of accepting or rejecting the same laws by which He abides. He does not asses, He "sees if" -- He "finds out" with the aim of obtaining joy, and all He does is to see that happens, whether the outcome meets His ideal or not (joy is in the invitation as well as in the fulfillment).

[webbles]

2 hours ago, tana said:

Gods job is to assess uncreated intelligences. To do this he needs a procedure. It is illogical to me that he can just look into the souls heart and see what it consists of, like, pulling out a chip and studying the schematic. Even if he can read minds he is just reading passing thoughts which are irrelevant to his task. The only way to test them is to see how they behave. He then keeps track of how they behave. He assigns values to behavior. Murder is worse than littering. 

 

Whether he keeps track simply in his mind, on his fingers, with an abacus or pen and paper doesn't matter. He must keep track over the lifetime of the subject. The algorithm is written to give more weight to the later years when the subject is more mature, but less weight to deathbed conversions. Mercy is relative, and therefore irrelevant. Subjects receive a final score. Since humans tend to be mostly good at heart, the majority will be hovering on the bubble between Terrestrial and Celestial. Some will miss the cut by a whisker. That will suck.

 

Because of the razor cut off problem, where one guy gets reward and another gets punishment because he cursed one too many times, I have a judgement based existence system in the - ain't gonna happen column. ymmv

I've always felt that we are the judgers, not God.  I don't like being around certain types of people.  I will actively seek to stay away from them.  There are certain types of people that I do enjoy being around.  Though I don't actively seek them out, if I find myself around them, I'll stay.  I suspect that will happen as well in the judgement.

Also, Christ has already paid for all of our misdeeds.  So cursing one more time than the other person has no factor in the judgment.  Even murder has no factor in the judgement.  Christ paid for all of those sins.  So it can't be a sum of our actions on deciding where we go.  So, it feels more like our trajectory is the deciding factor on the 3 kingdoms.  Are we moving towards became Christlike?  Are we moving away from being Christlike?  Sure, there is still some judgment there, but I believe it will be extremely lenient.  If we want to become more Christlike, even if we only started, then that counts.

[Calm]

4 hours ago, tana said:

Because of the razor cut off problem, where one guy gets reward and another gets punishment because he cursed one too many times, I have a judgement based existence system in the - ain't gonna happen column. ymmv

Telestial and Terrestrial are heavens of glory, not realms of punishment. 
 

And if teachings are correct (referred to by webbles), it won’t suck because we will be as joyful or happy as we can possibly be in the state of being/place we find ourselves postjudgment.  Judgment fulfills our desires more than anything else, imo; the punishment if there was any, takes place prior to judgment on our heavenly destination.

And by the time judgment comes around we likely will know ourselves well enough to actually understand what our true desires are and not just wishes based on false assumptions of what we like and don’t like if given to us without strings attached (iow, if there is no personal investment needed, if we don’t have to show our actual level of interest, how do we know we are truly interested?)

Edited December 21, 2024 by Calm

[tana]

oops.

Edited December 22, 2024 by tana