The Blind Ghost

[tana]

Picture yourself in your car. The windows are all blacked out. The only information you have from with the outside world of things is through video camera and a monitor. The monitor is your windshield. It's 3-d and the definition is such that you can't tell it's not the real thing. Now, transfer this over to existence as we understand it. Essentially, we are an entity/awareness, trapped inside a physical body vehicle. We are isolated in a separate shell and interact with the outside world of things through our sensory equipment sending information to our brain.

So, the question I have is, when the physical body vehicle dies, and the spirit is ejected, how does it see? Is the spirit also a vehicle with another little man inside it's head? J. Smith says yes. Spirit is also made of matter and entities from the 'intelligence realm' were inserted into these bodies. Ok, fine. Then what about the intelligence realm entities, is there a little man inside their head? Where does it end?

 

For me, the whole LDS construct of how it all works just isn't clean enough. Entities that just are and have existed forever now get moved into time to for some reason to be evaluated with an endgame goal of spending forever entertaining their senses just like the world we're in now, embedded in indestructible bodies and looking at the world from at least two monitors deep.

 

I'm not intending to be irreverent or flippant here. Just calling out measurements.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus_argument

[Dario_M]

1 minute ago, tana said:

Picture yourself in your car. The windows are all blacked out. The only information you have from with the outside world of things is through video camera and a monitor. The monitor is your windshield. It's 3-d and the definition is such that you can't tell it's not the real thing. Now, transfer this over to existence as we understand it. Essentially, we are an entity/awareness, trapped inside a physical body vehicle. We are isolated in a separate shell and interact with the outside world of things through our sensory equipment sending information to our brain.

That's exactly how i feel. Trapped in my body. I feel like i wanna be free. But being trapped in a body that doesn't functionate well. Where i feel uncomfortable in. Ugly. Fat. Misunderstood. Makes me feel like i'm trapped. 

[tana]

Well, I really have no idea, Dario. Escaping one body doesn't really sort things out. You just find yourself in another one in the spirit realm. Escape that one and you're back in the 'intelligence' realm. I guess the only way one is going to be free and not feeling trapped is to be one with the source. It seems to me that anytime one is set up and isolated in a physical body they are going to need sensory equipment to communicate

[CV75]

1 hour ago, tana said:

Picture yourself in your car. The windows are all blacked out. The only information you have from with the outside world of things is through video camera and a monitor. The monitor is your windshield. It's 3-d and the definition is such that you can't tell it's not the real thing. Now, transfer this over to existence as we understand it. Essentially, we are an entity/awareness, trapped inside a physical body vehicle. We are isolated in a separate shell and interact with the outside world of things through our sensory equipment sending information to our brain.

So, the question I have is, when the physical body vehicle dies, and the spirit is ejected, how does it see? Is the spirit also a vehicle with another little man inside it's head? J. Smith says yes. Spirit is also made of matter and entities from the 'intelligence realm' were inserted into these bodies. Ok, fine. Then what about the intelligence realm entities, is there a little man inside their head? Where does it end?

 

For me, the whole LDS construct of how it all works just isn't clean enough. Entities that just are and have existed forever now get moved into time to for some reason to be evaluated with an endgame goal of spending forever entertaining their senses just like the world we're in now, embedded in indestructible bodies and looking at the world from at least two monitors deep.

 

I'm not intending to be irreverent or flippant here. Just calling out measurements.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus_argument

I think J. Smith said that man is spirit, and for convenience this is tagged as his first estate. Though there may well be earlier estates. He perceives and represents things accordingly. His spirit and the element to which it is connected constitute a soul in the second estate of the same first estate person. Oddly, both spirit and element receive joy when inseparably connected (a third estate). The same person in different estates perceives and represents things in a successively more complete fashion (i.e., a fulness of joy). The "ejection" by common sense carries with it some faint trail of element, or experience with element, or corresponding change in the spirit, that was not present in the first estate. Even if not, the first estate sees in its own way, whether it has been altered by having been connected with element or not.

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, tana said:

Picture yourself in your car. The windows are all blacked out. The only information you have from with the outside world of things is through video camera and a monitor. The monitor is your windshield. It's 3-d and the definition is such that you can't tell it's not the real thing. Now, transfer this over to existence as we understand it. Essentially, we are an entity/awareness, trapped inside a physical body vehicle. We are isolated in a separate shell and interact with the outside world of things through our sensory equipment sending information to our brain.

So, the question I have is, when the physical body vehicle dies, and the spirit is ejected, how does it see? Is the spirit also a vehicle with another little man inside it's head? J. Smith says yes. Spirit is also made of matter and entities from the 'intelligence realm' were inserted into these bodies. Ok, fine. Then what about the intelligence realm entities, is there a little man inside their head? Where does it end?

 

For me, the whole LDS construct of how it all works just isn't clean enough. Entities that just are and have existed forever now get moved into time to for some reason to be evaluated with an endgame goal of spending forever entertaining their senses just like the world we're in now, embedded in indestructible bodies and looking at the world from at least two monitors deep.

 

I'm not intending to be irreverent or flippant here. Just calling out measurements.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homunculus_argument

Have you found a “construct of how it all works” that is clean enough for you? If so, please explain to me how this cleaner construct works?

[tana]

57 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Have you found a “construct of how it all works” that is clean enough for you? If so, please explain to me how this cleaner construct works?

I guess this is about all I've got, Teddyaware. Some type of Physicalism refined, in need of more refining. - But, in essence then I'd say I think there is one God, formless/matter-less. Entities split off from this when they take on form

From the other thread;

Quote

 

Therefore, consciousness is just as primary as particles. You cannot have one without the other. This still doesn't do us any good yet because the soul still dies with the particles. But, and it's a big but, If the persons unique energy pattern could be recorded and retained, like, at the sub-atomic level, and survive big bangs and big crunches. A billion years from now Joe Montana is throwing passes again on say, Alderaan III. And none the wiser for it. When Picard goes thru the transporter, are his particles transported or is it just the information that gets sent?

 

Also, Joe didn't spend any time in some sort of fuzzy spirit land when he is between bodies. That's fine. And, this still doesn't get us a soul that separates from the body and goes to the spirit realm. That's fine too. If God/the person in charge wants to he can just reconstitute the person, say Dantana *, with a different phase/vibration so that he isn't in sync with mortal land. Viola - spirit land.

 

* The soul needs particles to exist in form and move about - represent themselves as separate from the one. Think, 'more fine matter' spirit body, But it isn't reliant on mindless particles bouncing around to have their awareness, because at it's core, gods mind cannot consist of a mechanical system.

 

*This helps me with the concept of an endless heaven with an indestructible body. An indestructible body doesn't need to eat, doesn't need to breath, etc.

 

 

Edited November 27 by tana

[tana]

1 hour ago, CV75 said:

I think J. Smith said that man is spirit, and for convenience this is tagged as his first estate. Though there may well be earlier estates. He perceives and represents things accordingly. His spirit and the element to which it is connected constitute a soul in the second estate of the same first estate person. Oddly, both spirit and element receive joy when inseparably connected (a third estate). The same person in different estates perceives and represents things in a successively more complete fashion (i.e., a fulness of joy). The "ejection" by common sense carries with it some faint trail of element, or experience with element, or corresponding change in the spirit, that was not present in the first estate. Even if not, the first estate sees in its own way, whether it has been altered by having been connected with element or not.

Yeah, and so this actually helps out with the 'Two Rikers' problem of Physicalism Refined Theory. (PRT) As people move through their existence they learn, grow, change. So, even though one could have a whole planet full of Rikers, they would all be just a little bit different.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chances_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)

[CV75]

24 minutes ago, tana said:

Yeah, and so this actually helps out with the 'Two Rikers' problem of Physicalism Refined Theory. (PRT) As people move through their existence they learn, grow, change. So, even though one could have a whole planet full of Rikers, they would all be just a little bit different.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chances_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)

This means we are not an awareness trapped inside a physical vehicle/sensory shell after all. We interact in the second estate as a whole new unit, with new capabilities. How does this change your question?

[CV75]

1 hour ago, tana said:

I guess this is about all I've got, Teddyaware. Some type of Physicalism refined, in need of more refining. - But, in essence then I'd say I think there is one God, formless/matter-less. Entities split off from this when they take on form

From the other thread;

 

Matter in realm A may not be comprehended as matter in realm B until they are both comprehended from another realm. We can see pure and fine spirit matter when “quickened” while separably connected, or when inseparably connected with element. God saw the intelligences.

[teddyaware]

2 hours ago, tana said:

I guess this is about all I've got, Teddyaware. Some type of Physicalism refined, in need of more refining. - But, in essence then I'd say I think there is one God, formless/matter-less. Entities split off from this when they take on form

From the other thread;

 

I find the immaterial God of the Platoists to be a nonsensical and sadly inadequate being when compared to the God of the Latter-Day Saints — a perfect being tabernacled in an immortal and eternally sanctified physical body of flesh and bone. I’ve never been able to understand how a bodiless, immaterial God could be superior in any way to an incarnate God of perfect holiness? Consider what the Apostle Paul reveals to us about the nature of the resurrected Jesus Christ.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (Colossians 2)

If within the resurrected body of Jesus Christ dwells all the eternal fullness of the Godhead, it tells me that Christ is superior in nature to his supposedly immaterial Father. Why? Because Paul testifies that the resurrected Christ possesses all the fullness of the Father’s divine powers and attributes while dwelling in a tangible physical body, a body that allows him to commune with all of his human brothers and sisters in ordinary yet deeply meaningful ways.

Because he has a tangible physical body, the eternally perfect Christ is blessedly able to smile with us, laugh with us, cry with us, hold hands with us, embrace us, enjoy a delicious meal with us, communicate the beauty of his holiness to us through his holy facial expressions and body language, and tell that us he loves us by the words of his own mouth.

If tangible physical bodies are unimportant and nonessential to our eternal progression and happiness, why would God the Father bother to create this unimaginably vast physical universe that we inhabit, and why is it that the perfect revelation of who and what God the Father is is a perfect who’s man clothed in a perfect immortal physical body of flesh and bone? Why didn’t the Father just leave everything in an immaterial state and not bother to perfect his Son by means of conquering all opposition while inhabiting a physical body of flesh and bone?

Why not just leave well enough alone if all the physical creation is unnecessary? It seems to me that your obsession serves as a perfect of example looking beyond the mark and needlessly getting lost in the weeds.

Edited November 28 by teddyaware

[Mfbnew]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Matter in realm A may not be comprehended as matter in realm B until they are both comprehended from another realm. We can see pure and fine spirit matter when “quickened” while separably connected, or when inseparably connected with element. God saw the intelligences.

When we think of water, this is not what it is like in "close up".

"Spirit is matter, but more refined" 

https://www.google.com/search?q=electron+microscope+water+molecule&rlz=1CATATK_enUS1123&oq=microscope+water+mol&aqs=chrome.2.0i512j69i57j0i22i30l3j0i390i512i650l5.21727j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:3002dc0e,vid:jkRuDFxoKEQ,st:0

And on another level, what we see is an animation (my opinion) AND must be translated into both English AND French.

There are many ways of seeing things- and many perspectives.

A pyramid from directly above is just a plain old square.

Edited November 28 by Mfbnew

[tana]

2 hours ago, teddyaware said:

I find the immaterial God of the Platoists to be a nonsensical and sadly inadequate being when compared to the God of the Latter-Day Saints — a perfect being tabernacled in an immortal and eternally sanctified physical body of flesh and bone. I’ve never been able to understand how a bodiless, immaterial God could be superior in any way to an incarnate God of perfect holiness? Consider what the Apostle Paul reveals to us about the nature of the resurrected Jesus Christ.

8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: (Colossians 2)

If within the resurrected body of Jesus Christ dwells all the eternal fullness of the Godhead, it tells me that Christ is superior in nature to his supposedly immaterial Father. Why? Because Paul testifies that the resurrected Christ possesses all the fullness of the Father’s divine powers and attributes while dwelling in a tangible physical body, a body that allows him to commune with all of his human brothers and sisters in ordinary yet deeply meaningful ways.

Because he has a tangible physical body, the eternally perfect Christ is blessedly able to smile with us, laugh with us, cry with us, hold hands with us, embrace us, enjoy a delicious meal with us, communicate the beauty of his holiness to us through his holy facial expressions and body language, and tell that us he loves us by the words of his own mouth.

If tangible physical bodies are unimportant and nonessential to our eternal progression and happiness, why would God the Father bother to create this unimaginably vast physical universe that we inhabit, and why is it that the perfect revelation of who and what God the Father is is a perfect who’s man clothed in a perfect immortal physical body of flesh and bone? Why didn’t the Father just leave everything in an immaterial state and not bother to perfect his Son by means of conquering all opposition while inhabiting a physical body of flesh and bone?

Why not just leave well enough alone if all the physical creation is unnecessary? It seems to me that your obsession serves as a perfect of example looking beyond the mark and needlessly getting lost in the weeds.

teddyaware, CV75, Mfbnew. Good to see you again Mfb.

 

Yeah, so I'm just trying to see if it's possible to thought experiment a soul into existence using only mechanics, physics...You know, known science. Ok, with maybe a little bit of sci-fi. I'm not setting any rules for you so you are free to use spirituality themes, scripture and even sci- fantasy if you want. That's your right, but it does put us on different playing fields.

 

 

How the mortal individual interacts/communicates with it's environment as laid out by the OP is not fringe theory. It is accepted philosophy. The spiritualist believes that it is a soul inside there reading the data, the materialist says that it is just another program the brain is running. For this discussion tho the axiom is is that it is a spirit/soul.

 

When the mortal body dies the soul is ejected and no longer has a vehicle. Except in LDS theory where the spirit is also a vehicle with an entity in it reading the data.  As the OP link lays out this sets up an eternal regression of the little man in the head of each host. Lets set that aside for now though and let the entity/uncreated intelligence (UI) be the main guy. He is not  riding in the UI's brain. He is the UI.

 

If you in any way attach particles, more fine or no, onto the UI in any way - to his body or his brain, you put him back in a vehicle and not in direct contact with his environment. Or, you make his brain a by-product of particles. You just made yourself a physicalist.

Edited November 28 by tana

[manol]

10 hours ago, tana said:

So, the question I have is, when the physical body vehicle dies, and the spirit is ejected, how does it see?

Joseph Smith made an insightful observation which does not require belief in Mormonism to appreciate:  "Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading all that ever was written on the subject."

Two hundred years ago those who had "gazed into heaven five minutes" were few and far between.  Today that number would be a lot higher, thanks to modern medical resuscitation technology.  A small but arguably significant percentage of those who return report vivid memories of what they experienced on the other side.  Here are links to four NDE compilation videos, each cued up to a fairly brief description which imo is relevant to the question of "how does a spirit see or otherwise perceive once it leaves the physical body?":

https://youtu.be/INlz6VyG-A8?t=316 (a description of visuals)

https://youtu.be/INlz6VyG-A8?t=1136 (a description of sounds from the same compilation)

We Are Telepathic On The Other Side - NDE Compilation - YouTube

Who We Become On The Other Side - NDE Stories - YouTube

 

Who We Become On The Other Side - NDE Stories (Part 2) - YouTube

 

If you choose to watch more than just the individual linked-to descriptions, you will find a great deal of variation from one experiencer to the next.  I think this is sort of like the blind men describing the elephant.  If you listen to, or read, a lot of NDE accounts, an outline of "the elephant" may start to emerge.  (And if you only want to watch or read one person's account, I suggest Natalie Sudman.)

 

For those who consider the Ninth Article of Faith to be in effect, in my opinion the information conveyed by NDE accounts is arguably part of "all that God does now reveal."  The Gift of the Holy Ghost is how you can tell what, if anything, therein is of value for you.  Again, in my opinion.

Edited November 28 by manol

[CV75]

1 hour ago, tana said:

teddyaware, CV75, Mfbnew. Good to see you again Mfb.

 

Yeah, so I'm just trying to see if it's possible to thought experiment a soul into existence using only mechanics, physics...You know, known science. Ok, with maybe a little bit of sci-fi. I'm not setting any rules for you so you are free to use spirituality themes, scripture and even sci- fantasy if you want. That's your right, but it does put us on different playing fields.

 

 

How the mortal individual interacts/communicates with it's environment as laid out by the OP is not fringe theory. It is accepted philosophy. The spiritualist believes that it is a soul inside there reading the data, the materialist says that it is just another program the brain is running. For this discussion tho the axiom is is that it is a spirit/soul.

 

When the mortal body dies the soul is ejected and no longer has a vehicle. Except in LDS theory where the spirit is also a vehicle with an entity in it reading the data.  As the OP link lays out this sets up an eternal regression of the little man in the head of each host. Lets set that aside for now though and let the entity/uncreated intelligence (UI) be the main guy. He is not  riding in the UI's brain. He is the UI.

 

If you in any way attach particles, more fine or no, onto the UI in any way - to his body or his brain, you put him back in a vehicle and not in direct contact with his environment. Or, you make his brain a by-product of particles. You just made yourself a physicalist.

Uncreated intelligence is first its own environment (how can it not be?), as is uncreated element. What do you think is the difference between the two? Each has the most intimate contact possible with its respective environment (itself) no matter how they and their environments change, combine and expand. J. Smith used the term, “inseparably connected,” which allows for a “separably connected” state: either state is connected, whether notionally or physically, whether looking forward or backward within and between estates. You’ll have to remind me why the physicalist label matters.

Edited November 28 by CV75

[Calm]

8 hours ago, tana said:

But, in essence then I'd say I think there is one God, formless/matter-less. Entities split off from this when they take on form

So not changeless since entities split off of God?  Or do they split off without somehow affecting God?

Since science posits matter and energy are the different forms of the same thing, do you see God as energyless as well?

What is meant by formless?  Can you describe what that is?  No permanent form, can take on any form possible or it is impossible for God to take form?

Edited November 28 by Calm

[Dario_M]

11 hours ago, tana said:

It seems to me that anytime one is set up and isolated in a physical body they are going to need sensory equipment to communicate

Yeah can you imagine. You have those people who are handicapt and they can't even talk. They have the right equipment to communicate but they can't use it. Those people must feel trapped. But it can happen to everyone. 🤷‍♀️ You can get a tia and boom. You can't talk anymore. Or you can't walk anymore....or whatever. Because that part of your brain is damaged. 

Edited November 28 by Dario_M

[tana]

12 hours ago, manol said:

Joseph Smith made an insightful observation which does not require belief in Mormonism to appreciate:  "Could you gaze into heaven five minutes, you would know more than you would by reading all that ever was written on the subject."

Two hundred years ago those who had "gazed into heaven five minutes" were few and far between.  Today that number would be a lot higher, thanks to modern medical resuscitation technology.  A small but arguably significant percentage of those who return report vivid memories of what they experienced on the other side.  Here are links to four NDE compilation videos, each cued up to a fairly brief description which imo is relevant to the question of "how does a spirit see or otherwise perceive once it leaves the physical body?":

https://youtu.be/INlz6VyG-A8?t=316 (a description of visuals)

https://youtu.be/INlz6VyG-A8?t=1136 (a description of sounds from the same compilation)

We Are Telepathic On The Other Side - NDE Compilation - YouTube

Who We Become On The Other Side - NDE Stories - YouTube

 

Who We Become On The Other Side - NDE Stories (Part 2) - YouTube

 

If you choose to watch more than just the individual linked-to descriptions, you will find a great deal of variation from one experiencer to the next.  I think this is sort of like the blind men describing the elephant.  If you listen to, or read, a lot of NDE accounts, an outline of "the elephant" may start to emerge.  (And if you only want to watch or read one person's account, I suggest Natalie Sudman.)

 

For those who consider the Ninth Article of Faith to be in effect, in my opinion the information conveyed by NDE accounts is arguably part of "all that God does now reveal."  The Gift of the Holy Ghost is how you can tell what, if anything, therein is of value for you.  Again, in my opinion.

Well, the Atheist worldview holds that NDE's are illusion and are just the last gasps of a dying brain. That's fine. Whatever.

 

If that is the case tho I'm curious as to how that aspect or trait of the brain developed over the centuries thru evolution..How did the brain develop that - the trait of falsely making the organism think it is experiencing an afterlife, to ease the subjects fear of dying - when the subject dies. Which makes it hard to pass on any newly mutated genes to it's children. You know, the way evolution works.

[Nofear]

20 hours ago, tana said:

So, the question I have is, when the physical body vehicle dies, and the spirit is ejected, how does it see?

I think your "car analogy" is apt. The answer is we wouldn't "see". We need something.

In my model of LDS theology there are three components: physical matter, spirit matter, and intelligent "matter"*. The core of our identity is intelligent "matter". Being eternal and self-existent the only thing that makes any logical or coherent sense is that intelligent "matter" is simple. That is, it is indivisible and without constituent parts. That makes for a rather rough situation. Both perception and memory require components that can change distinct from other components. A simple object, by definition practically, can't do that. And without perception or memory, every action is indistinguishable from random. Intelligent "matter" is rather dumb. However, if one links intelligent matter with an external corpus/machine it can become distinguishable from random. With the right setup, it is capable of perception and memory. I believe that is why we have a body. Because spirit matter and physical matter essentially never interact directly (but intelligent "matter" can interact with each other), eternal salvation requires both bodies. Otherwise we are essentially cut off from half of the universe.

When our mortal physical body is separated from our spirit body (aka we die), I don't think our spirit matter perception immediately takes over in literal sense. The transition would be rather jarring. Consequently, I suspect we have a transition phase of a "virtual reality" that our spirit body experiences instead. These virtual realities are the stuff of NDE's. After the brief transition, we would then inhabit our spirit body and directly perceive and experience the spirit realm. This addendum is not a requisite component of the framework proposed by the previous paragraph.

 

* I put matter in quotes because it may very well be a mistake to liken it to physical or spirit matter where we might speak of things like like particles.

[Anonymous Mormon]

20 hours ago, tana said:

So, the question I have is, when the physical body vehicle dies, and the spirit is ejected, how does it see? Is the spirit also a vehicle with another little man inside it's head? J. Smith says yes. Spirit is also made of matter and entities from the 'intelligence realm' were inserted into these bodies. Ok, fine. Then what about the intelligence realm entities, is there a little man inside their head? Where does it end?

@tana - I have been thinking about your question and I think that the doctrine taught by Joseph Smith actually resolves the Homunculus argument / paradox:

• The concept that our spirit (little man in our heads) is in a vehicle (our body) and that when it dies it is ejected, is in fact a valid model and aligns with our doctrine
• The concept that our spirit has a little man inside of it (in this case our intelligence) does not jive with the doctrine taught by prophets - This is because the idea of the homunculus (tiny man inside the head) only works in the paradigm of dying, not of evolving. A butterfly, once evolved, doesn't return to its former state nor does its former state remain as a second 'entity inside itself
• So this scripture that intelligence always existed and was not made solves the problem:
     D&C 93:29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

So we somehow evolved from intelligence, to spirit pre-mortally. This is a full evolution. We are now in this temporary, probationary state now where we have a homunculus man inside our head that will eventually ejected. But this is temporary during our overall time of evolution. Once done, we will physical elements eternally connected with our spirit, and we will receive a fulness of joy. There will be no little man inside our heads at that point, just like there wasn't one when we were spirts.

 

33 For man is spirit. The elements are eternal, and spirit and element, inseparably connected, receive a fulness of joy;

34 And when separated, man cannot receive a fulness of joy.

 

The unique doctrine of Joseph Smith resolves this with the concept that a) intelligences are eternal not created and b) that spirit and elements will eventually be inseparably connected!

[Calm]

3 hours ago, tana said:

develop that - the trait of falsely making the organism think it is experiencing an afterlife, to ease the subjects fear of dying - when the subject dies. Which makes it hard to pass on any newly mutated genes to it's children. You know, the way evolution works.

Except we know of NDEs because people survived them and told the tale…including perhaps to their children.  They, after all, are near death experiences, not necessarily death experiences.  Maybe NDEs exist because the first to get them were motivated to work a little bit harder at staying alive than those who did not since they often convey a sense of mission or purpose to life.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Nofear said:

Because spirit matter and physical matter essentially never interact directly (but intelligent "matter" can interact with each other), eternal salvation requires both bodies.

I like this. It makes sense. 

[tana]

I really have nothing new to add just now. Anything I say would just be repetitive.

 

Anyway, maybe if I try to summarize, something new will come out.

 

LDS perspective: God is an Advanced Being. His mind, spirit body and physical body are in a sphere of their own and are composed of particles. He overcomes the paradox of his mind being a product of particle interaction thru something I don't understand yet. he overcomes the paradox of the humunculi by having his atoms in phase sync with the universe.

 

He inherited an automated system whereby his dominion are instantly transfered from stage to stage with never a lag when they are just an information pattern.

 

Me: Gods mind cannot consist of something physical. A book is made of paper and ink, but the story isn't.

 

It's OK if folks spend a little time in the transporter beam. A fortnight or a billion years is no time in eternity.

 

Nope. Nothing new.

[tana]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

Except we know of NDEs because people survived them and told the tale…including perhaps to their children.  They, after all, are near death experiences, not necessarily death experiences.  Maybe NDEs exist because the first to get them were motivated to work a little bit harder at staying alive than those who did not since they often convey a sense of mission or purpose to life.

Just to be clear, in case I wasn't. I'm not saying NDE's aren't a thing. I'm saying they prob. are, since how the brain gained the trait of projecting an afterlife because of evolution has issues.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, tana said:

, since how the brain gained the trait of projecting an afterlife because of evolution has issues.

I am not sure what you are saying here. 
 

I was addressing your comment that I interpreted as saying atheists have a problem explaining the existence of NDEs if only hallucinations at the time of death because how would such a characteristic evolve since those having or not having them at the time of death lack an opportunity pass on genes, so natural selection can’t take place. I was pointing out that perhaps NDEs gave a survival edge, which would allow for genetic material to be naturally selected to pass on, since they survived the near death experience and had more children, raising the percentage of the population with any genetic tendencies towards such hallucinations.

Edited November 29 by Calm

[tana]

The Atheist asserts that NDE's are just the brain in it's last throes projecting an afterlife to comfort the organism. It gained this trait through evolution. How did the brain gain this trait thru evolution. It would have to have people that survived NDE's pass on their genes. Whether the NDE was real or hallucinations doesn't matter, as, if the person survived to pass on their genes it is now in the works. I think you got me on this one Calm.

I didn't play it all the way out like you. I was just going with - how does the brain develop the trait of comforting the organism with thoughts of an afterlife if the organism dies.