Why 1820? Doesn't 1823 Make More Sense?

[Devobah]

Hey all!

I want to keep this as neutral as possible and ask this:

Why, if Joseph Smith was making the whole thing up about his First Vision (or "visitation") did he set that vision in the year 1820, instead of the year 1823 to correspond with the visitation of Moroni?

Lots of arguments say that this would have fit in the timeline in which there was a religious excitement and it would have made a bit more sense to place that time there, in my opinion. I know that there are some accounts that he gives that say he was 16 or 17 at this time, but those seem to lean a little more in the visitation of Moroni, instead of the visit of the members of the Godhead.

I'm not trying to make this a First Vision discussion and the different accounts, but just asking a question I've been wondering for a bit. I doubt it's original in any sense, and maybe I missed something, but I'm happy to get anyone's thoughts!

Regards,

Devobah

[Frank11]

22 minutes ago, Devobah said:

Why, if Joseph Smith was making the whole thing up about his First Vision (or "visitation") did he set that vision in the year 1820, instead of the year 1823 to correspond with the visitation of Moroni?

I do believe that he had some kind of natural experience in the forest around 1820. Perhaps the cloud cover over a grove was torn open and the sun's rays hit him while he was thinking about God.

He was later able to use this experience as the basic building block for the story of his first vision.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Devobah said:

.................

Why, if Joseph Smith was making the whole thing up about his First Vision (or "visitation") did he set that vision in the year 1820, instead of the year 1823 to correspond with the visitation of Moroni?

Lots of arguments say that this would have fit in the timeline in which there was a religious excitement and it would have made a bit more sense to place that time there, in my opinion. I know that there are some accounts that he gives that say he was 16 or 17 at this time, but those seem to lean a little more in the visitation of Moroni, instead of the visit of the members of the Godhead.

I'm not trying to make this a First Vision discussion and the different accounts, but just asking a question I've been wondering for a bit. I doubt it's original in any sense, and maybe I missed something, but I'm happy to get anyone's thoughts!

................

That is indeed a major theory, but the late D. Michael Quinn left us a major article which stands as an obstacle to that easy assumption:  http://ldsfocuschrist2.wordpress.com/2011/02/24/2006-joseph-smiths-experience-of-a-methodist-camp-meeting-in-1820-d-michael-quinn/  (this is Quinn’s definitive revision of Dec 20, 2006:  “Joseph Smith’s Experience of a Methodist ‘Camp-Meeting’ in 1820,” Dialogue E-paper #3, 2006)

Moreover, Don Bradley has now given us even more reason to see the traditional First Vision accounts as normative:  Don Bradley, “Acquiring an All-Seeing Eye: Joseph Smith’s First Vision as Seer Initiation and Deification Ritual,” Temple on Mount Zion Conference, Interpreter Foundation, Nov 12, 2024, video online at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PV4XVKsQP-0 .

[Dario_M]

On 11/26/2024 at 6:47 PM, Devobah said:

Hey all!

I want to keep this as neutral as possible and ask this:

Why, if Joseph Smith was making the whole thing up about his First Vision (or "visitation") did he set that vision in the year 1820, instead of the year 1823 to correspond with the visitation of Moroni?

Oh my. Joseph Smith was not a fraud i'm sure. I just feel like he didn't made this up. It's strange that so many people seem to believe that and leave the church because of that idea. Oh lord have mercy. 🙏

[Tacenda]

On 11/29/2024 at 11:03 PM, Dario_M said:

Oh my. Joseph Smith was not a fraud i'm sure. I just feel like he didn't made this up. It's strange that so many people seem to believe that and leave the church because of that idea. Oh lord have mercy. 🙏

This is me personally Dario and not sure if I'm helping you by speaking it, but I think all religion is man made so to speak. Or it's breathed through to individuals including women. I believe there are women and men who have gotten messages they believe to be from God.

So I think whatever belief or religion you feel the best about, is the right one.

[Dario_M]

12 hours ago, Tacenda said:

This is me personally Dario and not sure if I'm helping you by speaking it, but I think all religion is man made so to speak. Or it's breathed through to individuals including women. I believe there are women and men who have gotten messages they believe to be from God.

So I think whatever belief or religion you feel the best about, is the right one.

Yes right isn't that true. I will never be able to show hard evidence. But i believe that the storie about Joseph Smith is true. And that it all have happend for real you see. So not just a myth, you know. 

Edited December 3 by Dario_M

[Devobah]

On 11/29/2024 at 11:03 PM, Dario_M said:

Oh my. Joseph Smith was not a fraud i'm sure. I just feel like he didn't made this up. It's strange that so many people seem to believe that and leave the church because of that idea. Oh lord have mercy. 🙏

I'm not implying that I believe that Joseph was a fraud. I just had this question and just wanted to put it out in the world to see if there was a response to this. I just don't buy that Joseph seemingly was the sloppiest con man of all time.

[Dario_M]

3 hours ago, Devobah said:

I'm not implying that I believe that Joseph was a fraud. I just had this question and just wanted to put it out in the world to see if there was a response to this. I just don't buy that Joseph seemingly was the sloppiest con man of all time.

No, but he is not a con man at all you see. That's what some people who leave the church wanna believe (or better say, use that as an excuse in my opinion). Just as an excuse to leave the church. Well i find that those people better just be truthfull towards others and themselves, and admit the real reasons why they leave the church (wich can be anything, doesn't really matter what reason it is). But don't spread lies about Joseph Smith and use that as the reason you know (btw i'm not talking about you! But some of the individuals who are doing that). I find that so unclassy. 🤷‍♀️ Oh oh oh dear Lord. 

Edited December 3 by Dario_M

[Frank11]

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

No, but he is not a con man at all you see. That's what some people who leave the church wanna believe (or better say, use that as an excuse in my opinion). Just as an excuse to leave the church. Well i find that those people better just be truthfull towards others and themselves, and admit the real reasons why they leave the church (wich can be anything, doesn't really matter what reason it is). But don't spread lies about Joseph Smith and use that as the reason you know (i'm not talking about you! But some of the individuals who are doing that). I find that so unclassy. 🤷‍♀️ Oh oh oh dear Lord. 

Who are these "some people"?

How can you recognize the real reasons for someone leaving the church?

[Dario_M]

15 minutes ago, Frank11 said:

Who are these "some people"?

People who leave the church and claim that Joseph Smith is a fraud and use that as an excuse. 

15 minutes ago, Frank11 said:

How can you recognize the real reasons for someone leaving the church?

I have heard this "Joseph Smith is an fraud and because of that i leave the church" excuse so many times. It's fine that you wanna leave the church for whatever reason. But please....please don't give the LDS community a bad name on purpose. It's so disrespectfull for all the people who are still within the LDS community and believe in the church and in the kindness of Joseph Smith. Lord. 🙏

Edited December 3 by Dario_M

[Frank11]

54 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

2. I have heard this "Joseph Smith is an fraud and because of that i leave the church" excuse so many times. It's fine that you wanna leave the church for whatever reason. 1. But please....please don't give the LDS community a bad name on purpose. It's so disrespectfull for all the people who are still within the LDS community and believe in the church and in the kindness of Joseph Smith. Lord.

1. I hardly ever talk about the LDS community itself and the last time I spoke I said the following: "The church made religion interesting for me and, most importantly, it also offers many opportunities to do good in community life." 

2. How do you know it's being used as an excuse?

 

 

 

[Dario_M]

1 hour ago, Frank11 said:

1. I hardly ever talk about the LDS community itself and the last time I spoke I said the following: "The church made religion interesting for me and, most importantly, it also offers many opportunities to do good in community life." 

 

Yes but that's not all, there is more. It's also about worshipping God. Keeping the commandments. Having good values. Etc.

 

I just know that some people use excuses like "the church is fake" or "Joseph Smith was a fraud" etc i can go on and on and on. They just wanna have a strong reason to leave the church. As if it is a taboo to just say what really bugs you about the church. It can be any reason. Anything you can imagine. Listen if i can survive this church while i'm gay, don't really wanna follow all those rules and be honest about it to my leaders, and don't wanna do any upcoming rituals against my will (like getting the endownment or wearing a garment) and i can manage the church easily but other people get it together to throw it all in the towel and leave the LDS community so fast. People who used to be so fanatic, were reliable churchgoers. I mean...i have a hard time getting it. You have this stability. A huge family. In Utah. And the LDS community. Churches everywhere. Just around the corner. They don't need to travel 45 minutes to get to the nearest ward (like me) But then they throw it all away and can't manage it anymore. Why? 

[Tony uk]

2 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Yes but that's not all, there is more. It's also about worshipping God. Keeping the commandments. Having good values. Etc.

 

I just know that some people use excuses like "the church is fake" or "Joseph Smith was a fraud" etc i can go on and on and on. They just wanna have a strong reason to leave the church. As if it is a taboo to just say what really bugs you about the church. It can be any reason. Anything you can imagine. Listen if i can survive this church while i'm gay, don't really wanna follow all those rules and be honest about it to my leaders, and don't wanna do any upcoming rituals against my will (like getting the endownment or wearing a garment) and i can manage the church easily but other people get it together to throw it all in the towel and leave the LDS community so fast. People who used to be so fanatic, were reliable churchgoers. I mean...i have a hard time getting it. You have this stability. A huge family. In Utah. And the LDS community. Churches everywhere. Just around the corner. They don't need to travel 45 minutes to get to the nearest ward (like me) But then they throw it all away and can't manage it anymore. Why? 

I am no expert on this type of issue, far from it. We all have ups and downs in our life, days when we are up for the cause, and other days when we can not be bothered doing much. Likewise people may feel strong in their faith, and some days they may in some way question their faith. There maybe times when a person, for a number of reasons, may not feel strong in their faith. The person may hear, or read issues against their Church, even only in a subtle way. And this may bring on a feeling that the Church, of ant type, is no longer for that individual.

Edited December 4 by Tony uk
Spelling mistake

[Frank11]

51 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

People who used to be so fanatic, were reliable churchgoers. I mean...i have a hard time getting it. You have this stability. A huge family. In Utah. And the LDS community. Churches everywhere. Just around the corner. They don't need to travel 45 minutes to get to the nearest ward (like me) But then they throw it all away and can't manage it anymore. Why? 

You don't even want to understand it. You have such extreme prejudices against those who leave the church that you are not even open to the reasons. 

What is so difficult to understand in that?

At the beginning, everyone learns a simplified, sometimes embellished church history, just like in the nice church movies. Later on, you learn one or two strange stories that you can explain away. Then perhaps a big blow comes: Joseph Smith had 30 wives, some of them teenagers or even some who were married to other men at the same time. And so it goes on until the barrel overflows. Some can explain this with the support of FAIR, for example, and then they stay. Some can't find a reasonable explanation, they leave the church and for them, of course, Joseph Smith is a fraud.  There is then a special group, the PIMOs (physically in, mentally out). They stay because they are afraid that their spouse or family will be disappointed if they have lost their faith in the church. They then stay too.
Of course, there may be people for whom it is perhaps 40% church history, 30% dependency and 30% convenience, or similar, because they leave. But the fanatically faithful members, who you talked about, and later leave the church, do not leave out of convenience. These church fanatics usually also become the biggest critics and sometimes criticize every little thing excessively. I know a lot of them from another forum.

They are simply deeply disappointed with the church and feel really betrayed.

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Dario_M said:

Yes but that's not all, there is more. It's also about worshipping God. Keeping the commandments. Having good values. Etc.

 

I just know that some people use excuses like "the church is fake" or "Joseph Smith was a fraud" etc i can go on and on and on. They just wanna have a strong reason to leave the church. As if it is a taboo to just say what really bugs you about the church. It can be any reason. Anything you can imagine. Listen if i can survive this church while i'm gay, don't really wanna follow all those rules and be honest about it to my leaders, and don't wanna do any upcoming rituals against my will (like getting the endownment or wearing a garment) and i can manage the church easily but other people get it together to throw it all in the towel and leave the LDS community so fast. People who used to be so fanatic, were reliable churchgoers. I mean...i have a hard time getting it. You have this stability. A huge family. In Utah. And the LDS community. Churches everywhere. Just around the corner. They don't need to travel 45 minutes to get to the nearest ward (like me) But then they throw it all away and can't manage it anymore. Why? 

I totally understand the frustrations you are having with people like this. I think that the church is so important to you because you cling to it because of not having the family you would have wanted. Is it like a fill in for you? I know many who flock to the church because it provides a ward family of sorts. The church provides so much for those that don't have the community or even the family they wish they'd had. Or many join the church for the wonderful service, such as having ministering couples or brothers or sisters. Why we actually call each other sister so and so or brother so and so. And here in Utah there is a church on nearly every corner every few blocks almost and temples with in a few miles sometimes. I've always felt like I take it for granted. 

I understand how you must feel about those that leave the church and how can they? Just wanted you to know I understand. 

[Dario_M]

9 hours ago, Tony uk said:

I am no expert on this type of issue, far from it. We all have ups and downs in our life, days when we are up for the cause, and other days when we can not be bothered doing much.

Sorry for my late reaction i fell asleep yesterday. 

But anyway, i'm not talking about a little up or down through the days. I'm talking about people who pretend to love to church obey every covenand the have made perfectly. With other words, they're always up for church. But then one day they completely change their ways 90 degrees and suddenly they're completely done with the church and leave. I get that the LDS community is super demanding, so maybe that's also the issue. 

9 hours ago, Tony uk said:

Likewise people may feel strong in their faith, and some days they may in some way question their faith.

That seems to happen a lot in the LDS community anyway. 

9 hours ago, Tony uk said:

There maybe times when a person, for a number of reasons, may not feel strong in their faith. The person may hear, or read issues against their Church, even only in a subtle way. And this may bring on a feeling that the Church, of ant type, is no longer for that individual.

True. But i think it's more complicated then that. And it doesn't help that there is so much gossip media about Joseph Smith and false accusations about him. But he is the key of our church. So if people don't believe in the authenticity of Joseph Smiths intentions and therefore wanna questioning him.  they pretty much will questioning the whole church. people tend to leave the church pretty quickly after that. 

[Dario_M]

7 hours ago, Frank11 said:

You don't even want to understand it. You have such extreme prejudices against those who leave the church that you are not even open to the reasons. 

Pardon? Why do you think that?🤷‍♀️

7 hours ago, Frank11 said:

What is so difficult to understand in that?

I find it difficult to understand yeah. 

7 hours ago, Frank11 said:

Joseph Smith had 30 wives,

That's what has been written in certen documents. You don't know or those aaccusations are true or false. You haven't been there 200 years ago to witness Joseph Smith being together with 30 wives. There's also no video proof. Because camera's didn't didn't exist yet at that time. 

Seriously... everyone can write something about another person. Especially if they don't like that person. And Joseph Smith wasn't the most pupulair person. He had a lot of enemies. What let his enemies to write something bad about him to bring him in a bad light? Or exaggerate his situations? 

7 hours ago, Frank11 said:

some of them teenagers or even some who were married to other men at the same time. And so it goes on until the barrel overflows. Some can explain this with the support of FAIR, for example, and then they stay. Some can't find a reasonable explanation, they leave the church and for them,

Or another explenation. It can be a false testimony. 

7 hours ago, Frank11 said:

of course, Joseph Smith is a fraud.

Maybe you should look up the meaning of the word "fraud" ones again. 

7 hours ago, Frank11 said:

But the fanatically faithful members, who you talked about, and later leave the church, do not leave out of convenience.

I just wonder. How do you know their reasoning? Or do you have the ability to look into their heads perhaps? 

7 hours ago, Frank11 said:

These church fanatics usually also become the biggest critics and sometimes criticize every little thing excessively. I know a lot of them from another forum.

There are plenty of fanatics who later on criticize everything. And i mean just every-thing about the LDS community. Ones so fanatic in the church. Then suddenly they hate the church leave the church and make it their mission to spread as much negativaty as possible. It is that super strong change of mind of those folks that i find hard to follow. 

 

Edited December 4 by Dario_M

[Dario_M]

5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I totally understand the frustrations you are having with people like this.

Ooh no no. I'm not really frustrated about those people. It's more that i find it hard to follow them. Or understand their strong change of course. Btw i'm having a panic attack right now. So i'm gonna stop for a moment. I'm sorry. 

 

[Dario_M]

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I think that the church is so important to you because you cling to it because of not having the family you would have wanted. Is it like a fill in for you?

Hi Tacenda

You're so right. Btw i just had a massive panic attack. So it's difficult to stay focust on your lovely post. I try my best. 

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I know many who flock to the church because it provides a ward family of sorts. The church provides so much for those that don't have the community or even the family they wish they'd had. Or many join the church for the wonderful service, such as having ministering couples or brothers or sisters. Why we actually call each other sister so and so or brother so and so.

I know. The LDS community has such a warm enviroment and for somebody who has no family anymore this warmt can be quite addictive. 

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

And here in Utah there is a church on nearly every corner every few blocks almost and temples with in a few miles sometimes. I've always felt like I take it for granted. 

Yeah but i can totaly understand that. This is a lovely area to live in though. Going to the church is so easy in Utah. There are churches on every corner. In Provo the same. Here in the Netherlands it's a differend storie. I need to travel a half hour by train and from the station i need to walk 15 minutes to reach my ward. And that is then the clossest ward in here. 

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I understand how you must feel about those that leave the church and how can they? Just wanted you to know I understand. 

Thank you so much dear Tacenda. 🫂 I'm so happy that at least 1 person believes in me. And don't think that i'm so full of potatoes. Like some other seem to think like on here. At least you understand how honest i am. That everything i write down on the board comes direct from my heart. ❤️ and i'm really trustworthy. Because i care.

Tacenda god bless you. 🫂🙏

[webbles]

6 hours ago, Dario_M said:

That's what has been written in certen documents. You don't know or those aaccusations are true or false. You haven't been there 200 years ago to witness Joseph Smith being together with 30 wives. There's also no video proof. Because camera's didn't didn't exist yet at that time. 

Seriously... everyone can write something about another person. Especially if they don't like that person. And Joseph Smith wasn't the most pupulair person. He had a lot of enemies. What let his enemies to write something bad about him to bring him in a bad light? Or exaggerate his situations? 

Brigham Young (the next prophet after Joseph Smith) stated that Joseph Smith had multiple wives.  John Taylor (the next prophet after Brigham) also stated that.  Same with the next prophet, Wilford Woodruff.  All 3 of them definitely had multiple wives and they taught that Joseph was the one that taught them about polygamy.  It isn't just enemies who said Joseph was a polygamist.

There is debate on how many wives Joseph had or how he treated the wives (were they wives in name only, family connection sealings, etc) but that is different from acknowledging that he was sealed to other women.

You might not realize but polygamy was practiced by early church members.  Over 3/4 of my ancestry in early Utah were polygamists.  I even have a sister wife ancestor (she is another wife of one of my ancestors) who had a proposal from Joseph to be one of his wives.  She turned him down but after he died, she was sealed to him in the Nauvoo temple.

[Dario_M]

2 hours ago, webbles said:

Brigham Young (the next prophet after Joseph Smith) stated that Joseph Smith had multiple wives.  John Taylor (the next prophet after Brigham) also stated that.  Same with the next prophet, Wilford Woodruff.  All 3 of them definitely had multiple wives and they taught that Joseph was the one that taught them about polygamy.  It isn't just enemies who said Joseph was a polygamist.

Okay fine then. Then he had plural marriage. No big deal some members of the LDS community choose to do that at that time 200 years ago. But i don't believe that he had 30 wives at once. That's just ludacris. I also don't believe in the accusations that Joseph Smith had wives from other marriages. Where is the proof? 

2 hours ago, webbles said:

 You might not realize but polygamy was practiced by early church members. 

I allready knew this. 

2 hours ago, webbles said:

Over 3/4 of my ancestry in early Utah were polygamists.  I even have a sister wife ancestor (she is another wife of one of my ancestors) who had a proposal from Joseph to be one of his wives.  She turned him down but after he died, she was sealed to him in the Nauvoo temple.

Okay interesting. I don't think that there is anything wrong with having more then 1 wife. Everyone needs to decide that for himself. That's up to the person in question. Dear lord. 

[telnetd]

14 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

Okay interesting. I don't think that there is anything wrong with having more then 1 wife. Everyone needs to decide that for himself. That's up to the person in question.

There's nothing wrong if you believe God added one condition to plural marriage in 
the law of the priesthood. It allows some elders to have 10 virgins as concurrent 
wives (Doctrine and Covenants 132:61-63).

[Dario_M]

24 minutes ago, telnetd said:

There's nothing wrong if you believe God added one condition to plural marriage in 
the law of the priesthood. It allows some elders to have 10 virgins as concurrent 
wives (Doctrine and Covenants 132:61-63).

⬆️

[webbles]

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

Okay fine then. Then he had plural marriage. No big deal some members of the LDS community choose to do that at that time 200 years ago. But i don't believe that he had 30 wives at once. That's just ludacris. I also don't believe in the accusations that Joseph Smith had wives from other marriages. Where is the proof? 

Brigham Young had 56 wives.

Most of the women that are considered to be Joseph's wives was documented by Andrew Jenson and Joseph Fielding Smith (son of Hyrum Smith, nephew of Joseph Smith).  Both of them probably started documenting the wives because of statements by Joseph Smith III (son of Joseph Smith, cousin of Joseph Fielding Smith) that Joseph Smith was not a polygamist.  They interviewed men and women who personally knew Joseph Smith and participated in polygamous sealings.  It appears that one of the best sources they used was Eliza Snow.  She was the Relief Society President, wife of Brigham Young, and former wife of Joseph Smith.  She knew many of Joseph's wives and was able to help identify them for Andrew Jenson and Joseph Fielding Smith.

So, a lot of the proof is from the women themselves.  For example, Zina Diantha Huntington was married to Henry Jacobs by Joseph Smith on March 7, 1841.  While married, she was sealed to Joseph Smith on October 27, 1841.  She later became the third Relief Society President (after Emma Smith and Eliza Snow) and she also was a wife of Brigham Young.  She was well known to be sealed to Joseph while she was alive and people interviewed her.  She signed an affidavit on May 1, 1869 that said that she was sealed to Joseph Smith.  In an interview in 1898, she also affirmed that she was sealed to Joseph Smith.

[Frank11]

1 hour ago, Dario_M said:

Okay fine then. Then he had plural marriage. No big deal some members of the LDS community choose to do that at that time 200 years ago. But i don't believe that he had 30 wives at once. That's just ludacris.I also don't believe in the accusations that Joseph Smith had wives from other marriages. Where is the proof? 

The church has already officially admitted everything for 10 years, the only thing still in dispute is who he had sex with or not. But I don't think that sex is so relevant in this case. 
You're right: “That's just ludacris.” 

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2014/11/11/363324816/mormon-church-admits-founder-joseph-smith-had-up-to-40-wives