The origin of sinners

[tana]

Well, I haven't posted on here in quite a while so, Hello then. Just a short qualifier: This post is going to be critical of Deity based existence theory. If it's of any help, I also don't believe in physicalism theory. So there's that.

 

When, where and how did souls acquire the undesirable personality traits that require they be tested, rated and sorted. If god is making souls from scratch, putting them in bodies and sending them off to trials, wouldn't he make them all identical and perfect? Why would he then need to examine them by putting them through such unequal, cluttered up, low quality trials? It appears to me it's more like he is just testing bodies.

If entities must be rated and sorted to permanent disposition, then obviously they must have something about their base component, or their hard wiring that cannot be fixed. Ever. If entities can move through existence gaining knowledge and experiences. If Intelligence can be added to entities, then it can be taken away. It is all then superficial to some sort of blank slate hard drive.

 

How can an entity be personally responsible for having a bad core processor it couldn't possibly have itself created?

Sending a soul to eternal ouchies because somehow, someway a scoop of entity DNA was dolloped onto a cookie sheet from a vat with cooties in it would be like sending an Irishman to prison for having red hair. Right?

[Calm]

50 minutes ago, tana said:

wouldn't he make them all identical and perfect?

Why identical?  What would be the fun in that?

[MustardSeed]

IMO:  We aren’t competing, there’s no race, no need to all be the same baseline of righteousness. 
 

we are told we have free will, so the baseline is our nature, what we’ve been given, and our judgement will take it all into consideration I assume. This is why we can’t fairly judge each other: we are missing the crucial baseline info. 

[tana]

Well, because of another thought experiment, logic problem I see with the concept of heaven. A place of only good, no bad. In this place one can't like George more than Jerry. Tacos aren't better than hamburgers. 70 degrees f. more than 69. How can you have hot with no cold? So, everyone and everything would have to be eternally equal.

[Pyreaux]

13 hours ago, tana said:

Well, I haven't posted on here in quite a while so, Hello then. Just a short qualifier: This post is going to be critical of Deity based existence theory. If it's of any help, I also don't believe in physicalism theory. So there's that.

 

When, where and how did souls acquire the undesirable personality traits that require they be tested, rated and sorted. If god is making souls from scratch, putting them in bodies and sending them off to trials, wouldn't he make them all identical and perfect? Why would he then need to examine them by putting them through such unequal, cluttered up, low quality trials? It appears to me it's more like he is just testing bodies.

If entities must be rated and sorted to permanent disposition, then obviously they must have something about their base component, or their hard wiring that cannot be fixed. Ever. If entities can move through existence gaining knowledge and experiences. If Intelligence can be added to entities, then it can be taken away. It is all then superficial to some sort of blank slate hard drive.

 

How can an entity be personally responsible for having a bad core processor it couldn't possibly have itself created?

Sending a soul to eternal ouchies because somehow, someway a scoop of entity DNA was dolloped onto a cookie sheet from a vat with cooties in it would be like sending an Irishman to prison for having red hair. Right?

Who are you asking? Certainly not Latter-day Saints. Latter-day Saints don't believe in a metaphysical God who created matter, nor the primal self of people. Your old school, pre-Latter-day Saint humanist arguments might confound others, but they don't apply to us.

We also don't believe in destiny, we are not (entirely) some chemical machine, and all factors outside your control is all accounted for, regardless of the final "score". So, this is pointless. So, you don't seem to know your audience at all.

Edited November 24 by Pyreaux

[rpn]

We started out as intelligences who already existed.   Heavenly Father and Mother made us somehow into their spirit children.   They didn't create our existence, merely our being.   https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/gs/intelligence-intelligences?lang=eng

Edited November 24 by rpn

[CV75]

1 hour ago, tana said:

Well, I haven't posted on here in quite a while so, Hello then. Just a short qualifier: This post is going to be critical of Deity based existence theory. If it's of any help, I also don't believe in physicalism theory. So there's that.

 

When, where and how did souls acquire the undesirable personality traits that require they be tested, rated and sorted. If god is making souls from scratch, putting them in bodies and sending them off to trials, wouldn't he make them all identical and perfect? Why would he then need to examine them by putting them through such unequal, cluttered up, low quality trials? It appears to me it's more like he is just testing bodies.

If entities must be rated and sorted to permanent disposition, then obviously they must have something about their base component, or their hard wiring that cannot be fixed. Ever. If entities can move through existence gaining knowledge and experiences. If Intelligence can be added to entities, then it can be taken away. It is all then superficial to some sort of blank slate hard drive.

 

How can an entity be personally responsible for having a bad core processor it couldn't possibly have itself created?

Sending a soul to eternal ouchies because somehow, someway a scoop of entity DNA was dolloped onto a cookie sheet from a vat with cooties in it would be like sending an Irishman to prison for having red hair. Right?

A qualifier: I think this is an example of a very weak philosophical paradox. I'm goin to replace it with what I think are better questions for the topic area:

Not believing in physicalism or a soul (unless by a "soul" you mean a mind or a person, do you believe in idealism? Where do your traits come from, and where is your mind?

(Philosophy 100? -- the semester is almost over  !)

 

[tana]

The LDS theory of a pre-existence and a pre-pre-existence simply kicks the can down the road. If an entity has irredeemable personality traits, how did it acquire them? When? It had to be born with them.

[tana]

Hey CV75, nice to see you again. I do believe in Idealism.

[Pyreaux]

30 minutes ago, tana said:

Well, because of another thought experiment, logic problem I see with the concept of heaven. A place of only good, no bad. In this place one can't like George more than Jerry. Tacos aren't better than hamburgers. 70 degrees f. more than 69. How can you have hot with no cold? So, everyone and everything would have to be eternally equal.

Again, you don't seem to know who you are asking. Latter-day Saint don't believe in your metaphysical "heaven" where everything is "eternally equal" and without contrast. It simply does not align with Latter-day Saint beliefs. 

In LDS theology, heaven is not a singular, static place of perfect equality and monotony. It is understood as a dynamic and layered reality, with different levels of glory based on individual choices and progression. Each offering different experiences of happiness, depending on one's spiritual choices and progress in this life and beyond. Therefore, the concept of a "heaven" in LDS thought is not one where all things are the same or where absolute equality stifles diversity or choice. It is a place where people continue to grow, develop, and have agency.

Free Will and Choice and Agency. In a perfect, divine realm, there is still room for personal preferences, diversity, and the continued exercise of agency. This means that even in heaven, individuals can enjoy variety, make choices, and retain personal tastes and preferences, whether they be for tacos or hamburgers.

LDS theology does not teach that heaven must be free from contrasts. In fact, we would agree, contrasts - such as good and evil, light and dark, joy and sorrow - are seen as essential to our mortal experience and spiritual growth. While it’s believed that heaven is a place of peace, joy, and righteousness, there’s no suggestion that this would require all things to be uniform or identical. In fact, diversity and differences are celebrated in LDS teachings. Different cultures, talents, and preferences in this life is seen as part of God’s design.

Now the idea of "how can there be hot without cold" is based on an assumption that all experiences must involve opposites to be meaningful. LDS belief doesn’t require that every concept be defined by its opposite. In heaven, joy, peace, and love are not diminished by the absence of their opposite (suffering, sadness, etc.) because those negative experiences are not needed for the full experience of happiness in the afterlife.

The idea that "everyone and everything would have to be eternally equal" isn't accurate in LDS theology. LDS teachings emphasize the eternal potential for growth. People will be in different levels of glory according to their choices and efforts, and while all will be happy in their respective kingdoms, not everyone will be in the same position.

This allows for diversity in experiences and fulfillment. People’s talents, abilities, and preferences will still be meaningful in the afterlife, and individuals will continue progressing toward greater perfection in ways that are unique to them.

In conclusion, these questions about a "heaven" based on absolute equality and lack of contrast do not reflect LDS beliefs. You are presupposing beliefs we don't even hold.

Edited November 24 by Pyreaux

[Pyreaux]

9 minutes ago, tana said:

The LDS theory of a pre-existence and a pre-pre-existence simply kicks the can down the road. If an entity has irredeemable personality traits, how did it acquire them? When? It had to be born with them.

Nope, the primary self or person is uncreated. You don't seem to know us.

[tana]

An entity, whether created from scratch or not created but just is, must consist of some distinct personality traits. LDS theory has it moving through incarnations and growing. That would indicate a starting point for it when it had minimal personality traits. But, it still had to consist of something - What? How did it make itself?

[tana]

20 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Now the idea of "how can there be hot without cold" is based on an assumption that all experiences must involve opposites to be meaningful. LDS belief doesn’t require that every concept be defined by its opposite. In heaven, joy, peace, and love are not diminished by the absence of their opposite (suffering, sadness, etc.) because those negative experiences are not needed for the full experience of happiness in the afterlife.

 

What you're saying then is that in the C. kingdom there is warm and warmer, but not hot and cold. One can get angry at someone, but not mad.

[Pyreaux]

1 hour ago, tana said:

An entity, whether created from scratch or not created but just is, must consist of some distinct personality traits. LDS theory has it moving through incarnations and growing. That would indicate a starting point for it when it had minimal personality traits. But, it still had to consist of something - What? How did it make itself?

Nope. The doctrine is clear, God did not make "intelligences", the primal self or person. Creation from Nothing is the opposite of LDS theology.

Edited November 24 by Pyreaux

[tana]

9 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Nope. The doctrine is clear, God did not make "intelligences", the primal self or person. Creation from Nothing is the opposite of LDS theology. Read more.

Right. God did not make intelligences. But, neither did the intelligences make themselves, yet here we have intelligences being rated and sorted for being faulty.

[Pyreaux]

2 minutes ago, tana said:

Right. God did not make intelligences. But, neither did the intelligences make themselves, yet here we have intelligences being rated and sorted for being faulty.

Logic error: no one made them, they then are self-existing, so your effort to shift blame to a hypothetical maker is illogical.

[tana]

3 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

Logic error: no one made them, they then are self-existing, so your effort to shift blame to a hypothetical maker is illogical.

I did not posit a hypothetical maker. I agreed with you. I said, god did not make them, they (themelves) did not make them. No one made them. They just are. They are still being held accountable for how they just are, even though they have no hand in being how they just are. Until they fell into the LDS timeline theory of moving through incarnations.

 

Talk about logic error. How does an eternal being that just is start moving through a timeline?

[Pyreaux]

 

34 minutes ago, tana said:

What you're saying then is that in the C. kingdom there is warm and warmer, but not hot and cold. One can get angry at someone, but not mad.

Hmm. In a way. To clarify this, in LDS belief, the nature of heavenly existence and the Celestial Kingdom can be seen as involving experiences that are intensely positive, but not necessarily defined by the same opposites in the same way our mortal experiences are. 

There might be an intensification of goodness, love, joy, peace, etc., rather than pure contrasts like "hot" and "cold" as extremes of discomfort or could be an analog or metaphor and not true physical or emotional states defined by the opposite: like cold.

Similarly, emotions in the Celestial Kingdom wouldn't necessarily follow the same patterns as they do in mortality. The concept of "getting angry" in heaven might not be exactly the same as it is on Earth, since there wouldn't be the same kind of conflicts or sufferings to trigger it. Any emotional response would likely be rooted in the desire to correct or uplift, rather than to wish harm in the way we understand it in mortal life. It’s not that anger doesn’t exist, but rather that it is transformed and purified in the presence of perfect love and understanding.

Opposites may exist but maybe largely transcended. This doesn’t mean that experiences of joy, peace, or love are meaningless without their opposites; it simply suggests that in a perfected, divine state, experiences are full, pure, and intensified in a way that doesn’t require suffering or negative contrasts to be meaningful.

[tana]

6 minutes ago, Pyreaux said:

 

Hmm. In a way. To clarify this, in LDS belief, the nature of heavenly existence and the Celestial Kingdom can be seen as involving experiences that are intensely positive, but not necessarily defined by the same opposites in the same way our mortal experiences are. 

There might be an intensification of goodness, love, joy, peace, etc., rather than pure contrasts like "hot" and "cold" as extremes of discomfort or could be an analog or metaphor and not true physical or emotional states defined by the opposite: like cold.

Similarly, emotions in the Celestial Kingdom wouldn't necessarily follow the same patterns as they do in mortality. The concept of "getting angry" in heaven might not be exactly the same as it is on Earth, since there wouldn't be the same kind of conflicts or sufferings to trigger it. Any emotional response would likely be rooted in the desire to correct or uplift, rather than to wish harm in the way we understand it in mortal life. It’s not that anger doesn’t exist, but rather that it is transformed and purified in the presence of perfect love and understanding.

Opposites may exist but maybe largely transcended. This doesn’t mean that experiences of joy, peace, or love are meaningless without their opposites; it simply suggests that in a perfected, divine state, experiences are full, pure, and intensified in a way that doesn’t require suffering or negative contrasts to be meaningful.

My thoughts on the concepts of heaven were just something that's been floating around in my mind for a while now and not totally worked out so, thanks for typing this up.

[Pyreaux]

15 minutes ago, tana said:

I did not posit a hypothetical maker. I agreed with you. I said, god did not make them, they (themelves) did not make them. No one made them. They just are. They are still being held accountable for how they just are, even though they have no hand in being how they just are. Until they fell into the LDS timeline theory of moving through incarnations.

 

Talk about logic error. How does an eternal being that just is start moving through a timeline?

You assume they are not responsible because they didn't make themselves as they are, now I don't believe that is true, but even if they were naughty by nature, why exactly is God who didn't make them bad, but sorts them out unfair or his fault? If I had a psycho son, do I blame myself? If I had to put him in a place to keep others safe, is it my fault? After all, I made him, genetically speaking.

[tana]

In the mortal world people have physiological issues that are not fixable, to the extent that they must be isolated as they cannot be rehabilitated. Punishment down here is for those who maybe can be fixed, and for a deterrent.

In spirit land I can't see how any of this can apply.  How can a spirit have a malfunctioning  physiological spirit brain issue? Why punish a spirit forever?

The nice thing about LDS beliefs is that eternal punishment may not actually be eternal. I'm sure you know the relevant scripture. So, you and I may not be as crossed up as it appears. I'm just simply trying to jump ahead a little and point to what god must know - Entities are not unfixable

 

[blackstrap]

Going out on a limb here, but I think that the intelligences made a choice as to whether or not to be clothed in a spirit body. If not then there exists an intelligence soup that God just dipped a spoon into for each spirit body. The scriptures indicate that God can and does get ' angry ' , so that emotion is available to all eternal beings , no ?

[tana]

12 minutes ago, blackstrap said:

Going out on a limb here, but I think that the intelligences made a choice as to whether or not to be clothed in a spirit body. If not then there exists an intelligence soup that God just dipped a spoon into for each spirit body. The scriptures indicate that God can and does get ' angry ' , so that emotion is available to all eternal beings , no ?

I posted the OP on another forum recently and the poster "malkie" had this response:

 

Quote

I wonder if god has a quality management program - ISO9001, perhaps - or if the quality control is all at the back end, when it's too late to fix certain errors. So then perhaps the "testing" is to determine which of god's creations he messed up so badly that they are not suitable to be in the top levels of his heaven.

Kind of like the way that the processors on a silicon wafer are designated after being tested: apparently early (pre-8th gen) Intel Core processors all started off as potentially i9 chips. The best performers were sold as Core-i9, the next tier as Core-i7, then i5, and i3. There is no i1 - any chip that isn't at least an i3 might be scrapped - sent to outer darkness, as it were.

It does still leave the spirit responsible for the DNA it was handed, but if intellegences had a choice to take the gamble and become a spirit, I guess it could work.

[Pyreaux]

What if all of us, as originally uncreated "Intelligences", are just aspects of God's own mind and what He is punishing is Himself?

"There was Eru, the One... the Ainur, the Holy Ones, were the offspring of his thought" (J. R. R. Tolkien – The Silmarillion)

 

Edited November 24 by Pyreaux

[Calm]

What the heck?!?