The church and undue influence

[MustardSeed]

Since in my opinion the “church and control” thread is silly, let’s re direct.  
 

Share here if you would like, identifying experiences where you believe you have been affected by undue influence in the context of The Church.  
 

The church is imperfect.  There are things we can do to improve without meddling with doctrine or eternal principles.  
 

Also, feel free to share here the ways you have been positively influenced by the church. 

[MustardSeed]

The church has positively influenced me in the following ways:  I am sure I’m more service minded due to church influence.  I also love that once a week I have a quiet day to reset, focus on priorities, reflect on spiritual matters and slow the heck down. Also, sobriety is a major positive because I’m inclined to unhealthy coping mechanisms under stress. 
The positives are vast, which is why I stay! 
Undue influence:  I’m judgemental and critical of others flaws because ultimately I’m very critical of myself, for fear of not making it to the top.  I don’t see it in the moment but upon reflection I see it clearly. 
I also find myself far too critical of what people wear to church, because I was taught that it’s sinful to take off your dress clothes on Sunday.  I remind myself regularly to stop those thoughts when people wear jeans to pass sacrament etc.  
Undue influence has a part in my tendency to give up power in the world to males.  This influence is born in personal interactions with males in the church who have apparently felt entitled to claim authority where none existed.  In my youth I bought in- I don’t any more but sometimes I have to remind myself of limits to male authority. 
 

 

[california boy]

In my life, when Church leaders told me that if I just marry a woman, I will no longer be gay.  Being taught that being gay bars me from the Celestial Kingdom unless I can learn to be straight, felt like major undo influence, especially when that promise was false.

After I finally came out after years of pretending to be someone I am not and was living that lie daily.  That can become a very dark way to live.  And I knew exactly the kind of undo influence I had allowed the Church to exert on me.  As expected,  I was told that if I wanted a life with someone I love and deeply cared for in the same way almost every other single Church leader had, I would be excommunicated.  I choose excommunication knowing that doing so, according to Church teachings, would bar me from the Celestial Kingdom and any chance of me being with my family throughout the eternities.  I  realized that what the Church asked of me wasn't  what God wanted me to do, it was what Church leaders wanted me to do.

It was definitely the right decision for me even though that ultimately meant that I was not allowed to attend any family events, reunions, baptisms, mission farewells of my nieces and nephews family dinners, even holidays for 13 years.  It meant that of all of the Church members I had known all my life, all but 4 ever reached out to me again.  I had made my choice and I had to live with the consequences of that choice.  

While the price was extremely high, I have never regretted that decision to cast off that kind of power the Church had over me.  I  begin to  believe in God more than the Church.  I believe in a God that wants his children to be happy and live complete and fulfilling lives.  While I lost the Church, I gained the love of a man that I have become inseparable with.  The life I have already feels like I am in heaven.  Trust God over the Church.   

 Look unto me in every thought; doubt not, fear not.

                                                           -D&C 6:36

[MustardSeed]

25 minutes ago, california boy said:

In my life, when Church leaders told me that if I just marry a woman, I will no longer be gay.  Being taught that being gay bars me from the Celestial Kingdom unless I can learn to be straight, felt like major undo influence, especially when that promise was false.

After I finally came out after years of pretending to be someone I am not and was living that lie daily.  That can become a very dark way to live.  And I knew exactly the kind of undo influence I had allowed the Church to exert on me.  As expected,  I was told that if I wanted a life with someone I love and deeply cared for in the same way almost every other single Church leader had, I would be excommunicated.  I choose excommunication knowing that doing so, according to Church teachings, would bar me from the Celestial Kingdom and any chance of me being with my family throughout the eternities.  I  realized that what the Church asked of me wasn't  what God wanted me to do, it was what Church leaders wanted me to do.

It was definitely the right decision for me even though that ultimately meant that I was not allowed to attend any family events, reunions, baptisms, mission farewells of my nieces and nephews family dinners, even holidays for 13 years.  It meant that of all of the Church members I had known all my life, all but 4 ever reached out to me again.  I had made my choice and I had to live with the consequences of that choice.  

While the price was extremely high, I have never regretted that decision to cast off that kind of power the Church had over me.  I  begin to  believe in God more than the Church.  I believe in a God that wants his children to be happy and live complete and fulfilling lives.  While I lost the Church, I gained the love of a man that I have become inseparable with.  The life I have already feels like I am in heaven.  Trust God over the Church.   

 Look unto me in every thought; doubt not, fear not.

                                                           -D&C 6:36

I don’t think any of us can presume to know what it was like to trust humans who promised an outcome they had no business promising, only to have to choose at a crossroads most of us will never face. 

[smac97]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Share here if you would like, identifying experiences where you believe you have been affected by undue influence in the context of The Church.  

Perhaps you should first explain/define what you mean by "undue influence."  

Thanks,

-Smac

[Duncan]

 I know a guy (who was newlywed at the time) who was told he would be released from the Bishopric when his wife got pregnant

Only marry people in the church

 

[smac97]

5 minutes ago, Duncan said:

 I know a guy (who was newlywed at the time) who was told he would be released from the Bishopric when his wife got pregnant

How odd.

5 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Only marry people in the church

?

Thanks,

-Smac

[Dario_M]

The LDS community had a really positive affect on me as a person. But i'm still gay. I still have sex allthough i'm not married. And yeah...some things i just can't reach. Some commitments are just to hard for me to follow. I'm only human. God forbid. 

[california boy]

6 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

The LDS community had a really positive affect on me as a person. But i'm still gay. I still have sex allthough i'm not married. And yeah...some things i just can't reach. Some commitments are just to hard for me to follow. I'm only human. God forbid. 

I don't think you should assume God forbids your love for your boyfriend just because Church leaders tell you it is wrong.  You have to remember that pretty much all the General Authorities grew up at a time where it was shameful to be gay.  Not so much different than the General Authorities the grew up at a time where interracial marriages were shameful and forbidden.  No revelation has ever been claimed from God.  

I am so happy that you found a home in the Church.  But it doesn't mean that everything that is taught to you comes from God.  Trust God. 

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Perhaps you should first explain/define what you mean by "undue influence."  

Thanks,

-Smac

I am going to request that nobody answers this question. I don’t believe that it is in good faith. I think it is a trap to get us lost again in a definition rather than to address the spirit of the post. Smac I like you and I value you, but I see you coming in here and taking over and making this about your game. I don’t appreciate that. Please try to refrain from derailing again.

[Dario_M]

Just now, california boy said:

I don't think you should assume God forbids your love for your boyfriend just because Church leaders tell you it is wrong.

Yeah i know. My church leaders may disapprove me for being gay. But honestly i don't really care about that to be honest. I just feel that, i injoy Gods permission to be gay have a boyfriend and have sex with him without a marriage. 

Just now, california boy said:

You have to remember that pretty much all the General Authorities grew up at a time where it was shameful to be gay.  Not so much different than the General Authorities the grew up at a time where interracial marriages were shameful and forbidden.  No revelation has ever been claimed from God.  

It's just the stereo type, a man should be together with a woman. Marry. And get plenty of children. Then you obey Gods will....at least that is what many saints seems to think. Or in case you really can not marry a woman (because you're gay for example) then you need to live this platonic life where you live as a non. Never have sex with the same sex. And you do that for the rest of your life. Follow the law of chastity. Then you will injoy the approvel from the LDS community as well. And allthough i wanna feel the valuation from the LDS community, i absolutely don't wanna live like a non. I just need sex. Done. So unfortunately i gonna throw the law of chastity out of the window. 

Just now, california boy said:

I am so happy that you found a home in the Church.  But it doesn't mean that everything that is taught to you comes from God.  Trust God. 

I will i will. Thank you for your advice. 🩵

[smac97]

27 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Quote

Perhaps you should first explain/define what you mean by "undue influence."  

I am going to request that nobody answers this question.

Well, it's your thread, so I'll abide by that.  I think the discussion will be hindered, though, because "undue influence" probably means different things to different people.

27 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I don’t believe that it is in good faith.

I was speaking very much in good faith.

27 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I think it is a trap to get us lost again in a definition rather than to address the spirit of the post.

I think by refusing to define a key term, you are lessening our ability to communicate.  Vagueness.  Equivocation.  Ambiguity.  These things are probably going to cloud discussion.

27 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Smac I like you and I value you, but I see you coming in here and taking over and making this about your game. I don’t appreciate that. Please try to refrain from derailing again.

I was not trying to take over, or play a game, or derail, as evidenced that my suggestion was directed to you as the originator of the thread.  

But as you please.  I will not participate further and leave you to it.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited November 21 by smac97

[MustardSeed]

16 minutes ago, smac97 said:

But as you please.  I will not participate further and leave you to it.

Thank you. 
you’re welcome to engage in the conversation if you understand it well enough to participate. If you don’t understand it, this will be one to sit out on. I appreciate that. 

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

 I know a guy (who was newlywed at the time) who was told he would be released from the Bishopric when his wife got pregnant

Only marry people in the church

 

I certainly would consider marrying outside the church at this point in my life. Never would I have ever considered it coming out of the strong influences of childhood going into my Mormon marrying age of 20.  
I think the best person I ever dated, (including my husband) was somebody that I dated when I was 18.  But my white, Mormon, traditional Messaging would never have allowed me to consider a serious relationship with this remarkable young man.  

I don’t have regrets because my life ended up being very fortunate and wonderful. But that young man is still one of the most remarkable people I think I’ve ever met.  Even my husband agrees.
 

 

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

.........................

Also, feel free to share here the ways you have been positively influenced by the church. 

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is a vehicle or superstructure for our human and spiritual needs.  Sometimes we may not realize just how valuable certain mundane aspects of the Church are there for us and crucial -- until something unusual happens.

Years ago, when I was living in L.A., I heard a rumor that the Church had put out a new Joseph Smith movie, and that I could see it at the L.A. Temple Visitor's Center.  Loving all things Joseph Smith, I entered that Visitor's Center one afternoon.  I saw a gaggle of sister missionaries at the reception desk, and asked them about the new film.  They directed me to a nearby room, into which I entered and sat down.  It was somewhat dark in there, and I saw only a handful of people seated and waiting.  Then a small Filippina sister missionary entered the room, greeted us, and bore a brief testimony.  I have no idea what she actually said, but I was immediately overwhelmed.  My face became hot and I teared up.  This hadn't happened to me before, and I was confused.  No one noticed, and the Filippina quickly left. 

The film was a good one, even including paddle-wheel boats on the Mississippi.

Within a month, a friend advised me that the L.A. Mission was having a regular meeting in Torrance (south L.A.), which he always found interesting based on the wonderful testimonies given by new converts and prospects.  So we went, and as I was entering an elder asked me if I would give a testimony.  I said yes, and when the time came I spoke about my experience at the Visitor's Center.  I had concluded by then that the Holy Spirit was telling me that I should go to the temple more often.  The mission president then got up and said that he and his wife had just that afternoon at LAX put that Filippina sister on a flight back to Manila (she cried).  He gave her name as Sister Villaverde.  I was so thankful for her sincere testimony, even though she was never aware of its effect in my case.

[Calm]

nvm, should have kept reading

Edited November 21 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

...............  And I knew exactly the kind of undo influence I had allowed the Church to exert on me.  ..........................

Your quandary reminds me of two things: (1) It is not at all clear what happens on the other side of the veil, and (2) free agency is real.

Moreover, you'd think that in a Church which aggressively practices proxy ordinances for the dead, there would be a willingness to allow each departed individual to determine whether to accept or reject those ordinances.  Some of us think that Latter-day Saint theology is universalist and humanistic, and that it was God's clever intention all along to save as many as possible.  Why else have an infinite atonement?

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, Dario_M said:

The LDS community had a really positive affect on me as a person. But i'm still gay. I still have sex allthough i'm not married. And yeah...some things i just can't reach. Some commitments are just to hard for me to follow. I'm only human. God forbid. 

Hopefully the church can be a big wide tent and include those of us that might not meet all the requirements.

[california boy]

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Your quandary reminds me of two things: (1) It is not at all clear what happens on the other side of the veil, and (2) free agency is real.

Moreover, you'd think that in a Church which aggressively practices proxy ordinances for the dead, there would be a willingness to allow each departed individual to determine whether to accept or reject those ordinances.  Some of us think that Latter-day Saint theology is universalist and humanistic, and that it was God's clever intention all along to save as many as possible.  Why else have an infinite atonement?

Well I don't really disagree with you.  My life has ended up just fine without me being a part of the Church.  And I have enough faith in God that he will judge the best place for me in the next life.  And I am perfectly fine and accepting of whatever He decides.

It does make me wonder though, if the mission goal of the Church is to bring people to Christ, shouldn't there be a way for those that are LGBT to participate and still live a full life without having to decide between finding someone to share this life with or the Church?  I grew up on the belief that having a family is a very important part of what God wants us to experience in this life.  To dismiss that key part of our life on earth seems counter to this belief that the goal of the Church is to bring everyone closer to Christ.  It is as if the Church doesn't believe those that are LGBT for some reason don't need the Church.  And pardon for this, but isn't it similar to the idea that black people didn't need the priesthood or temple blessings in this life?  That somehow God will fix things for them as well?  

I strongly believe that because there has never been a revelation on banning those that are LGBT from being sealed as couples in the temple, at some point God will correct this.  And to be honest, I don't really think I would choose to participate if it ever happens anyway.  Way too much loss of trust for me at this point.  So this is not so much about me as it is the thousands of a younger generation of LGBT people who now and will struggle over this choice and lost on their own, may never believe in Christ or salvation along with their families who often loose their faith as well.  

Yes, the Church does have a lot of power over the choices we make.

[Peacefully]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Well I don't really disagree with you.  My life has ended up just fine without me being a part of the Church.  And I have enough faith in God that he will judge the best place for me in the next life.  And I am perfectly fine and accepting of whatever He decides.

It does make me wonder though, if the mission goal of the Church is to bring people to Christ, shouldn't there be a way for those that are LGBT to participate and still live a full life without having to decide between finding someone to share this life with or the Church?  I grew up on the belief that having a family is a very important part of what God wants us to experience in this life.  To dismiss that key part of our life on earth seems counter to this belief that the goal of the Church is to bring everyone closer to Christ.  It is as if the Church doesn't believe those that are LGBT for some reason don't need the Church.  And pardon for this, but isn't it similar to the idea that black people didn't need the priesthood or temple blessings in this life?  That somehow God will fix things for them as well?  

I strongly believe that because there has never been a revelation on banning those that are LGBT from being sealed as couples in the temple, at some point God will correct this.  And to be honest, I don't really think I would choose to participate if it ever happens anyway.  Way too much loss of trust for me at this point.  So this is not so much about me as it is the thousands of a younger generation of LGBT people who now and will struggle over this choice and lost on their own, may never believe in Christ or salvation along with their families who often loose their faith as well.  

Yes, the Church does have a lot of power over the choices we make.

Between women’s issues and lgbtq+ issues I had one foot out the door. Now that the members in my part of Texas seem to be aligning themselves with the evangelicals and the far-right my other foot is on its tippy-toe. However, my husband wants to stay, and I do not want him to go and sit at church alone. Until I met him, I didn’t have a significant other who attended church regularly and often went alone. It wasn’t fun. 
 

I still have a testimony of many things, including the BOM and Joseph Smith but I often wonder if the church as it currently stands is “true”. 

Edited November 22 by Peacefully

[Dario_M]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Hopefully the church can be a big wide tent and include those of us that might not meet all the requirements.

I hope so too. But my orientation will never change. I just know that. My ward knows it. Everyone knows it. And for me to lied a life where i may not even injoy the company of a nice boyfriend is just a really bad idea. I really need somebody in my life. I would be terribly lonely if i needed to live a platonic life where i may not injoy the company of a male partnership. That would be a horrible life for me. And that is why i push the "law of chastity" out of the door. Just because i know that i will never ever accomplish this 1 commandment. So...let's just pay attention on the other rules and let this one go shall we. 

Edited November 22 by Dario_M

[Tacenda]

7 hours ago, Peacefully said:

Between women’s issues and lgbtq+ issues I had one foot out the door. Now that the members in my part of Texas seem to be aligning themselves with the evangelicals and the far-right my other foot is on its tippy-toe. However, my husband wants to stay, and I do not want him to go and sit at church alone. Until I met him, I didn’t have a significant other who attended church regularly and often went alone. It wasn’t fun. 
 

I still have a testimony of many things, including the BOM and Joseph Smith but I often wonder if the church as it currently stands is “true”. 

I keep wanting to go with my husband, it's just been difficult to go back for a few reasons. But one day we'll get there. I miss the music, miss the talks, miss people, miss friendships, miss service opportunities. I'd love to actually sit in the Sacrament Meeting and also class and hear "Amazing Grace" now that it's added. That song is special for a few reasons to me. Maybe I'll try for this Sunday. 

[MustardSeed]

16 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I keep wanting to go with my husband, it's just been difficult to go back for a few reasons. But one day we'll get there. I miss the music, miss the talks, miss people, miss friendships, miss service opportunities. I'd love to actually sit in the Sacrament Meeting and also class and hear "Amazing Grace" now that it's added. That song is special for a few reasons to me. Maybe I'll try for this Sunday. 

If you go, make sure you talk to 5 people.  Make them feel loved 🥰 

[MustardSeed]

I was unduly innfluenced to wear a bra on top of a garment top for 20 years.  The ridiculousness of that had an impact on my relationship with wearing garments. I genuinely felt deeply conflicted about the directive I was given and my natural resistance to nonsense created this conflict against my need to follow all of the directions given in the temple.
I do resent being told that this was a must in the temple and it has warped for me my ability to trust directives. I now understand that the only directive I need to follow is what is given to me by God, but I also do not trust myself. So that’s fun.

[MustardSeed]

A positive influence: it’s my opinion that church taught me how to be comfortable speaking in front of people. It built my confidence.  It has a lot to do with what I do today, public speaking and performance.  All of that training in primary was very useful.