6,674 undiscovered Maya structures

[Nofear]

https://phys.org/news/2024-10-major-maya-cities.html

"Our analysis not only revealed a picture of a region that was dense with settlements, but it also revealed a lot of variability," Auld-Thomas states. "We didn't just find rural areas and smaller settlements. We also found a large city with pyramids right next to the area's only highway, near a town where people have been actively farming among the ruins for years.

"The government never knew about it; the scientific community never knew about it. That really puts an exclamation point behind the statement that, no, we have not found everything, and yes, there's a lot more to be discovered."


For the limited geography folk, like myself, this is interesting.

[Pyreaux]

Now maybe one might have the Mayan hieroglyphs for Seed: a symbol resembling a seed or a sprout, which might be depicted with curves or rounded shapes and Compassion: glyphs that signify heart or caring actions. When combined emphasizing the interconnectedness of growth and empathy. And we'll have found Zerahemla (זרעחמל : Zerachemla), "the seed of compassion" or "to sow compassion."

[longview]

1 hour ago, Nofear said:

"The government never knew about it; the scientific community never knew about it. That really puts an exclamation point behind the statement that, no, we have not found everything, and yes, there's a lot more to be discovered."

I keep wondering if there is any possibility of stashed historical volumes hidden in those structures. Like a time capsule locked away in a corner stone? Can lidar penetrate to discover those recesses?

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, longview said:

I keep wondering if there is any possibility of stashed historical volumes hidden in those structures. Like a time capsule locked away in a corner stone? Can lidar penetrate to discover those recesses?

Not so likely in the rain forest.  However, the Mesoamerican peoples did have a yen for caves, so something might yet be found in a mtn cave in the altiplano of Guatemala, or in some mtns in Mexico.  The oldest codex from Mesoamerica, the Grolier Codex, is claimed to have been found in 1960 in a dry cave in highland Chiapas, Mexico.  Maya Codex of Mexico - Wikipedia .  Of course, the collection of plates and other documents used by Mormon should still be in a cave in the Hill Cumorah (Jaredite Ramah) in the Land Northward in Mesoamerica.  Before that the records were kept in the Hill Shim in the Land of Antum.  I once knew a RLDS guy (Neil Steede) who regularly went cave-hunting in Mexico.  HCET 2006 Neil Steede Testimony .  Steede passed away very recently.

[Zosimus]

On 10/30/2024 at 5:16 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

Not so likely in the rain forest.  However, the Mesoamerican peoples did have a yen for caves, so something might yet be found in a mtn cave in the altiplano of Guatemala, or in some mtns in Mexico. 

Its not Guatemala or Mexico, but turns out It is totally possible to lose, and then find, a full collection of metal plates with ancient inscriptions on them. 493 of them in fact

What The Landmark Discovery of Panchaloka Statues and Copper Plates Mean to Tamil Nadu’s Religious History

On 10/30/2024 at 5:16 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

I once knew a RLDS guy (Neil Steede) who regularly went cave-hunting in Mexico.  HCET 2006 Neil Steede Testimony .  Steede passed away very recently.

Sorry to hear that Neil Steede has passed. I had an email convo (using very large font due to his failing eyesight) with him years ago about the brick temples and finger-marked bricks of Comalcalco, Mexico. It was his opinion that the technology came from, coincidentally, the same region as the copper plates in the story above, the Satavahana Empire to be exact 

[Robert F. Smith]

On 10/31/2024 at 7:08 AM, Zosimus said:

.................................

Sorry to hear that Neil Steede has passed. I had an email convo (using very large font due to his failing eyesight) with him years ago about the brick temples and finger-marked bricks of Comalcalco, Mexico. It was his opinion that the technology came from, coincidentally, the same region as the copper plates in the story above, the Satavahana Empire to be exact 

Yes, a number of non-LDS scholars (Michael D. Coe, David H. Kelley, etc.) have taken the view that Mesoamerican culture came from India, Southeast Asia, and China.

[Zosimus]

On 11/2/2024 at 5:52 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, a number of non-LDS scholars (Michael D. Coe, David H. Kelley, etc.) have taken the view that Mesoamerican culture came from India, Southeast Asia, and China.

There is no longer any doubt that a group genetically (and culturally?) related to the ancient Hòabìnhians were among the founding groups of the Americas (source). Some are now speculating that their ancestors were the first founding population of the Americas, arriving millennia before the Beringians (source).

[The Nehor]

Hopefully we don’t find out that eight of them are fake because then we have 6,666 of them and that is like the Mark of the Beast only worse because of the extra 6.

[Robert F. Smith]

On 11/2/2024 at 10:06 PM, Zosimus said:

There is no longer any doubt that a group genetically (and culturally?) related to the ancient Hòabìnhians were among the founding groups of the Americas (source). Some are now speculating that their ancestors were the first founding population of the Americas, arriving millennia before the Beringians (source).

Yes, of course, ancient American genetic history is far earlier and more variegated than anyone has imagined in the past.  We also know now for certain that Polynesians and South Americans had contacts both directions.

However, Mike Coe was more interested in recent diffusion from SE Asia, say perhaps ca 2,000 BC or shortly thereafter.  This he based on comparison of Mesoamerican civilization with ancient Khmer/Cambodian civilization, specifically the details of the largest temple complex in the world, Angor Wat "Holy Temple."  Coe spoke about this many times, for example, Coe, “Parallel Civilizations: Ancient Angkor and the Ancient Maya,” Hitchcock Lecture, UCTV, Berkeley Graduate Division Video, July 30, 2012, online at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBB__YXYpOc . 

Coe saw close similarities in both cultures of color/directionality, sacred kingship, tropical urbanism, lacustrine and canalized cities like Tenochtitlan, similarities in stone bark-beater paper- making, the backstrap loom of both areas, etc.

Karl Taube and Mary Miller have also mentioned the East Indian parchesi game strikingly similar to Mesoamerican patolli (Miller & Taube, Gods and Symbols, 132-133 (illus), citing Edward Tylor).

There is a host of other parallels which can be brought in from India (a la David Kelley), including the Kaliyuga and 360-day years, with a base date nearly the same as for the Mesoamerican calendar.

See also Coe and Damien Evans, Angkor and the Khmer Civilization (Thames & Hudson, 2018). 

Coe and John H. Stubbs, eds., Preah Khan Monastic Complex: Angkor, Cambodia  (London: Scala, 2011).

Coe, "The Khmer Settlement Pattern: A Possible Analogy with that of the Maya," American Antiquity, 22 (1957):409–410.

However, the article you cite by Castro y Silva, et al., in Genetic Molecular Biology mentions the outlier genetics of the Mixe, and I consider that indicative of ancient Jaredite diffusion from Mesopotamia -- in what is now known as the land of the Olmec in Tabasco and Veracruz States of Southern Mexico.  I see the reconstructed Proto-Mixe-Zoque language as directly descended from Sumero-Akkadian of Mesopotamia, and I provide reasons for this in my book Jaredites & Manassites, The Ethnological Foundations of the Book of Mormon, vol II (Provo: Deep Forest Green Books, 2022), online at https://books.google.com/books?id=m6ykEAAAQBAJ&newbks=0&hl=en&source=newbks_fb .

 

[Zosimus]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I provide reasons for this in my book Jaredites & Manassites, The Ethnological Foundations of the Book of Mormon, vol II (Provo: Deep Forest Green Books, 2022), online at https://books.google.com/books?id=m6ykEAAAQBAJ&newbks=0&hl=en&source=newbks_fb .

Nice, you've been busy! Looking forward to reading this one too.

I'm through the first few pages and had a question about the section on the Jaredite names Emer/Omer. Here there is a discussion about a post-flood Yarej in different Arabic genealogies of Japheth. These Arabic historians place Yarej and his sons as the first kings in India and China. What I'm curious about is the name given to Yarej's father in the genealogies, Amur or Amir. 

I noticed you suggested Arabic Amir as related to Emer/Omer in the Book of Ether. I'm just wondering if you had any insight on the Arabic name Amir given to Yarej's father.

The reason I ask is the children of Amir are also said to have traveled to farthest points north and farthest points east, the lands beyond Gog and Magog (Yājūj and Mājūj) where they aren't heard from much anymore. Seems to me that the Book of Ether picks up there, where the grandchildren of Yarej (Jared) in the farthest points east are named Emer and Omer  after their ancestor Amir.

Edited November 5 by Zosimus

[Robert F. Smith]

10 hours ago, Zosimus said:

..........................

I'm through the first few pages and had a question about the section on the Jaredite names Emer/Omer. Here there is a discussion about a post-flood Yarej in different Arabic genealogies of Japheth. These Arabic historians place Yarej and his sons as the first kings in India and China. What I'm curious about is the name given to Yarej's father in the genealogies, Amur or Amir. 

I noticed you suggested Arabic Amir as related to Emer/Omer in the Book of Ether. I'm just wondering if you had any insight on the Arabic name Amir given to Yarej's father.

Thank you for that helpful reference on Jared/Yarej.  Very interesting.

Arabic أمير ʼemir “commander” is often transliterated Amir as well.  The Arabic is also used that same way in Persian and Urdu.

10 hours ago, Zosimus said:

The reason I ask is the children of Amir are also said to have traveled to farthest points north and farthest points east, the lands beyond Gog and Magog (Yājūj and Mājūj) where they aren't heard from much anymore. Seems to me that the Book of Ether picks up there, where the grandchildren of Yarej (Jared) in the farthest points east are named Emer and Omer  after their ancestor Amir.

That's just the sort of correlation Hugh Nibley would have picked up on.  Thanks.

[Zosimus]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Arabic أمير ʼemir “commander” is often transliterated Amir as well.  The Arabic is also used that same way in Persian and Urdu.

The father of Yarej is also translated Amir.

Translation: "A branch of the family of Amir, son of Japheth, separated and went to China. The leader of this group built ships based on the model of Noah's ark, his ancestor, where all his people embarked; they crossed the sea, reached China, populated it, built cities, developed sciences and arts there, and exploited gold mines."

The cool thing is that the Arabic historians say that these children of Amir (eg Yarej) built boats modeled after Noah's Ark and sailed to the farthest points east. This is not unlike the Jaredite account in Ether 6:7, which mentions their boats were tight like unto the ark of Noah.

Another surprising thing. Amir is called Komr/Kumr in some Arabic histories. Skousen has the original spelling of Morian Cumer down as Cumr. The Arabic historians believed these were the Khmer. Relevant to our discussion above about Coe's ideas about the Khmer and Maya being parallel civilizations

Translation: "...The majority of the descendants of 'Āmr followed the coastline of the sea and thus reached the extremities of China. Thus, the supposed common descent of 'Āmr, son of Japheth, of the Komr (equals Khmer) and the Chinese is explained to us. The emigration of the Komr to the Malay islands, following troubles, is evidently an allusion to the looting of the port of Khānfou”

Edited November 6 by Zosimus

[Robert F. Smith]

30 minutes ago, Zosimus said:

...........................

Another surprising thing. Amir is called Komr/Kumr in some Arabic histories. Skousen has the original spelling of Morian Cumer down as Cumr. The Arabic historians believed these were the Khmer. Relevant to our discussion above about Coe's ideas about the Khmer and Maya being parallel civilizations..............................

I think you meant that Royal Skousen noted that the Printer's Manuscript has Morian cumer -- in which cumer would sound just like Cumr, as in Coriantumr, which was first written in the Original Manuscript as Coriantummer.

[Zosimus]

5 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I think you meant that Royal Skousen noted that the Printer's Manuscript has Morian cumer -- in which cumer would sound just like Cumr, as in Coriantumr, which was first written in the Original Manuscript as Coriantummer.

Skousen suggested the spelling was also cumr:

"Under the assumption that the small plates of Nephi were translated last, this instance of Coriantumr in Helaman 1:15 is the first occurrence of the name in the text...The end of the name is spelled as mr in the manuscriptsThis spelling suggests the possibility that one other name in the text could be in error—namely, the name Moriancumer may be a mistake for Moriancumr." (source)

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, Zosimus said:

Skousen suggested the spelling was also cumr:

"Under the assumption that the small plates of Nephi were translated last, this instance of Coriantumr in Helaman 1:15 is the first occurrence of the name in the text...The end of the name is spelled as mr in the manuscriptsThis spelling suggests the possibility that one other name in the text could be in error—namely, the name Moriancumer may be a mistake for Moriancumr." (source)

Thank you for calling that to my attention.

[Nofear]

The guest is a bit more confident than I am of things, but he believes he identified the name of the leader of the Gadianton Robbers who led the coalition that wiped out the Nephites.

 

[Zosimus]

On 11/6/2024 at 4:35 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Thank you for calling that to my attention.

Stumbled on this from Hugh Nibley's lectures (source😞

"Since we mentioned that idea of evidence in archaeology, one thing is very important here in this particular regard—the general nature of the ruins found in Central America and elsewhere. Robert Heine-Geldern started out studying the archaeology of Southeast Asia—the great temples, Angkor Wat, etc. Then he saw the great resemblance to those in Central America, and he became an American archaeologist. He started comparing them. Then he went back to the Near East and compared them. He calls attention to the often stunning resemblance (you’ve noticed this yourself) between the exotic remains of Cambodia, India, Mexico, and Guatemala. They look very much alike. Now, we should be showing you slides like crazy here, but you’ve all seen the pictures. Should we draw a picture of one of these towers? “The impressive number of Chinese elements in Olmec, the tiger cult, the bronzes, the jade carving [very Asiatic].” I notice that the American archaeologists have shifted everything now to Asia, the cultured Asiatic—not those primitives who covered the Bering Strait when it was frozen and when it was a land bridge. That’s not it at all. Now they come with full-blown culture from Asia, and everything is Asiatic here.

Here we are quoting Michael D. Coe, the foremost American who is always sounding off on this subject from back at Yale. He has been here, and we have had students with him. He said, “Many have noted the great ceremonial centers of Meso-America are highly reminiscent of Anchor and Khmer civilizations of Southeast Asia.” Then we showed that Robert Heine-Geldern got very interested and started comparing them in a big way. Coe wrote, “Contacts must have been by sea, not directly across the Pacific, however, but using the Kuroshio drift following the great cirque by the northern route [the Japan current, as we sometimes have suggested for the Jaredites].” W. Krickenberg has a book on that, incidentally. “But there is something seriously wrong here for the whole Southeast Asian complex doesn’t arise until the ninth and tenth centuries after Christ [that’s a thousand years after the Nephites disappeared; what are we going to get here?] so they could not have inspired the American cult centers, built a thousand years earlier.” Krickenberg says on page 572, “The only explanation is to look for a common source somewhere, [they look alike because they came from the same place] which Heine-Geldern finds in the Near East [at a much earlier time, of course, both in its American and Asiatic forms].” They were both brought from the Near East; that’s why they look alike. They came from the same center, and it was the Near East. That happens to be where the Book of Mormon people came from."

[Robert F. Smith]

On 11/11/2024 at 8:24 PM, Zosimus said:

Stumbled on this from Hugh Nibley's lectures (source😞

"Since we mentioned that idea of evidence in archaeology, one thing is very important here in this particular regard—the general nature of the ruins found in Central America and elsewhere. Robert Heine-Geldern started out studying the archaeology of Southeast Asia—the great temples, Angkor Wat, etc. Then he saw the great resemblance to those in Central America, and he became an American archaeologist. He started comparing them. Then he went back to the Near East and compared them. He calls attention to the often stunning resemblance (you’ve noticed this yourself) between the exotic remains of Cambodia, India, Mexico, and Guatemala. They look very much alike. Now, we should be showing you slides like crazy here, but you’ve all seen the pictures. Should we draw a picture of one of these towers? “The impressive number of Chinese elements in Olmec, the tiger cult, the bronzes, the jade carving [very Asiatic].” I notice that the American archaeologists have shifted everything now to Asia, the cultured Asiatic—not those primitives who covered the Bering Strait when it was frozen and when it was a land bridge. That’s not it at all. Now they come with full-blown culture from Asia, and everything is Asiatic here.

Here we are quoting Michael D. Coe, the foremost American who is always sounding off on this subject from back at Yale. He has been here, and we have had students with him. He said, “Many have noted the great ceremonial centers of Meso-America are highly reminiscent of Anchor and Khmer civilizations of Southeast Asia.” Then we showed that Robert Heine-Geldern got very interested and started comparing them in a big way. Coe wrote, “Contacts must have been by sea, not directly across the Pacific, however, but using the Kuroshio drift following the great cirque by the northern route [the Japan current, as we sometimes have suggested for the Jaredites].” W. Krickenberg has a book on that, incidentally. “But there is something seriously wrong here for the whole Southeast Asian complex doesn’t arise until the ninth and tenth centuries after Christ [that’s a thousand years after the Nephites disappeared; what are we going to get here?] so they could not have inspired the American cult centers, built a thousand years earlier.” Krickenberg says on page 572, “The only explanation is to look for a common source somewhere, [they look alike because they came from the same place] which Heine-Geldern finds in the Near East [at a much earlier time, of course, both in its American and Asiatic forms].” They were both brought from the Near East; that’s why they look alike. They came from the same center, and it was the Near East. That happens to be where the Book of Mormon people came from."

Yep.  More grist for the mill.

[theplains]

On 10/29/2024 at 6:16 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Of course, the collection of plates and other documents used by Mormon should still be in a cave in the Hill Cumorah (Jaredite Ramah) in the Land Northward in Mesoamerica. 

The Hill Cumorah is the same hill as the Jaredite Ramah according to what was revealed in the 
April 1928 General Conference.

https://ia800303.us.archive.org/5/items/conferencereport1928a/conferencereport1928a.pdf

[Robert F. Smith]

22 hours ago, theplains said:

The Hill Cumorah is the same hill as the Jaredite Ramah according to what was revealed in the 
April 1928 General Conference.

https://ia800303.us.archive.org/5/items/conferencereport1928a/conferencereport1928a.pdf

Yes, of course, and we know that also from Ether 15:11 (Mormon 6:6).

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, of course, and we know that also from Ether 15:11 (Mormon 6:6).

I think plains is saying the one in New York are both Cumorah and Ramah in the Book of Mormon

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I think plains is saying the one in New York are both Cumorah and Ramah in the Book of Mormon

If that is the case, he should say so and cite the page on which that claim is ostensibly made.  Perhaps he is referring to page 8 of the 1928 April Conference Report in which President Heber Grant mentions the purchase of the Hill Cumorah in NY.  He is certainly entitled to his opinion on that, even though he does not discuss BofM geography, and he makes a similar false assumption in that same paragraph:  He says that the Church has purchased the Peter Whitmer Sr farm in Fayette, where the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized.  That is a very common but mistaken belief.  The Church was actually organized a great distance away on April 6, 1830, at the Joseph Smith Sr log-house in Manchester (cf. D&C 20-23).  See Richard Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling (2005), 109 and notes.

Prior to 1834, all church publications and documents explicitly stated that the Church was organized in Manchester, New York.  Eye-witnesses include William Smith (Smith 1883, p. 14), Joseph Knight Sr. (Jessee 1976), and several non-believing Palmyra residents who had attended (Tucker 1867, p. 58).

[webbles]

On 11/16/2024 at 4:23 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

If that is the case, he should say so and cite the page on which that claim is ostensibly made.  Perhaps he is referring to page 8 of the 1928 April Conference Report in which President Heber Grant mentions the purchase of the Hill Cumorah in NY.  He is certainly entitled to his opinion on that, even though he does not discuss BofM geography, and he makes a similar false assumption in that same paragraph:  He says that the Church has purchased the Peter Whitmer Sr farm in Fayette, where the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized.  That is a very common but mistaken belief.  The Church was actually organized a great distance away on April 6, 1830, at the Joseph Smith Sr log-house in Manchester (cf. D&C 20-23).  See Richard Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling (2005), 109 and notes.

Prior to 1834, all church publications and documents explicitly stated that the Church was organized in Manchester, New York.  Eye-witnesses include William Smith (Smith 1883, p. 14), Joseph Knight Sr. (Jessee 1976), and several non-believing Palmyra residents who had attended (Tucker 1867, p. 58).

The Joseph Smith Papers still say it was in Fayette - https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/place/fayette-township-new-york.  The Church's site for the Whitmer homestead also says so - https://history.churchofjesuschrist.org/content/historic-sites/new-york/fayette/peter-whitmer-log-home-in-fayette-ny?lang=eng.  Another page says that most historians accept Fayette - https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/topics/founding-meeting-of-the-church-of-christ?lang=eng.

 

[theplains]

On 11/16/2024 at 6:23 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

If that is the case, he should say so and cite the page on which that claim is ostensibly made.  Perhaps he is referring to page 8 of the 1928 April Conference Report in which President Heber Grant mentions the purchase of the Hill Cumorah in NY.  He is certainly entitled to his opinion on that, even though he does not discuss BofM geography, and he makes a similar false assumption in that same paragraph:  He says that the Church has purchased the Peter Whitmer Sr farm in Fayette, where the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized.  That is a very common but mistaken belief.  The Church was actually organized a great distance away on April 6, 1830, at the Joseph Smith Sr log-house in Manchester (cf. D&C 20-23).  See Richard Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling (2005), 109 and notes.

Prior to 1834, all church publications and documents explicitly stated that the Church was organized in Manchester, New York.  Eye-witnesses include William Smith (Smith 1883, p. 14), Joseph Knight Sr. (Jessee 1976), and several non-believing Palmyra residents who had attended (Tucker 1867, p. 58).

@Calm

Yes. That is what I was saying.  Just search for "Cumorah" in the PDF file of the General
Conference (with the record of all the sermons) and you'll see what I meant.

Your use of the words "opinion" and "assumption" do not portray the way the revelation is
spoken of at a General Conference. If so, let's assign those words to everything spoken at
every General Conference.

Edited November 18 by theplains

[webbles]

3 hours ago, theplains said:

@Calm

Yes. That is what I was saying.  Just search for "Cumorah" in the PDF file of the General
Conference (with the record of all the sermons) and you'll see what I meant.

Your use of the words "opinion" and "assumption" do not portray the way the revelation is
spoken of at a General Conference. If so, let's assign those words to everything spoken at
every General Conference.

There is a ton of debate over whether the Hill Cumorah in New York is the same as the Hill Cumorah in the Book of Mormon.  The church has now officially stated that it has no position on specific locations - https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/book-of-mormon-geography?lang=eng

Quote

The Church does not take a position on the specific geographic locations of Book of Mormon events in the ancient Americas. Speculation on the geography of the Book of Mormon may mislead instead of enlighten; such a study can be a distraction from its divine purpose.

So, even if the leaders back in 1928 felt like the Hill Cumorah in New York is the same as the Hill Cumorah in the Book of Mormon, that is no longer the official position of the church.  I also don't see any revelation spoken in the 1928 General Conference.