What's with the rush? the speed to exaltation? Total compliance, right now? We all need grace, so....?

[nuclearfuels]

Pls correct me if I'm wrong:

1. We all need grace and forgiveness from the Savior. No one else can help us overcome our sins, mistakes, etc. 

2. President Ezra Taft Benson put it most poignantly when he said, “When obedience ceases to be an irritant and becomes our quest, in that moment God will endow us with power.”

3. The Lord says: “Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. “And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.” (D&C 130:18–19.)

I don't get why we need to stress ourselves out - trying to attend every meeting, keep every rule, attend every optional event, etc. when we all need the Savior's grace. 

I also don't get what the benefit of "so much the advantage in the world to come" will be. I will be ahead of brother and sister Jones after we all die? Okay, and? Let's say they're ahead of me in their intelligence and knowledge and diligence and obedience - I'm 100% fine with that. I have all of eternity to catch up with them - at the same time, it's not a race and there's no end to time in eternity, so...? Unless the goals we set in mortality include obtaining certain callings or qualifying for the blessings from certain callings - I can not conceive of any reason why the afterlife would be a race ala "I'm ahead of Brother Jones. Ha ha!" "I'm behind brother jones. Oh no!" 

Isn't part of the reason we have Temple work specifically for those who weren't able to "start the race"/accept the Savior's restored gospel in mortality? 
If this principle of advancement applied to our pre-earth life - which is likely - I don't understand why that matters. If I was a slower Intelligence (likely) and needed more help in mortality (fact), I don't think God would love me less or be disappointed in me taking more time to learn and advance.

 

 

[Pyreaux]

Its not met that we should run more than we are able, but stagnation is a threat to progression. Do not procrastinate the day of your repentance, because it's not going to suddenly be easier to change, and though death isn't the end, the great white throne of judgment might be for many.

Edited October 26, 2024 by Pyreaux

[Calm]

2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

also don't get what the benefit of "so much the advantage in the world to come" will be.

If you were going to get a wonderful gift that would be life changing, wouldn’t you want it sooner rather than later?  I think the competitive, hierarchical angle to the verse is likely more mortal than divine, but I do see God wanting us to be able to maximize the benefits of our relationships with him.  Maybe with his eternal perspective “sooner” or “later” is meaningless to him, but maybe wanting to be with loved ones as much as possible is a shared experience between mortality and divinity.

I also believe that God wants the best for us and that may mean shedding the burden of our sins as quickly as possible.  

If someone was offering me a guaranteed chance to be cured completely of all that ails me in this life, I might dawdle here and there a bit just out of habit, but it’s clear to me that the reason my routines fall through and I make excuses is I don’t trust the process of getting healthy, in part because I have been given the wrong things to do many times over the decades so my efforts to feel better actually made things worse and even when things do improve, other things break down, so it feels like one step forward and two steps back.  But when things are connecting up and I can sense the improvement, it is pretty easy to keep with the program.

If spiritual health is anything like physical health, then it makes sense to me that if we trust the process, trust God, we would be eager to dispense with our spiritual burdens, our aches and pains.  Who cares about what others are doing, I want to be better for my own sake, not so I can look down on others not so advanced or have some sort of power over them.

But when trust of the process isn’t fully there yet, maybe a little carrot and stick routine helps with motivation for many people. 

Edited October 26, 2024 by Calm

[InCognitus]

27 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Pls correct me if I'm wrong:

1. We all need grace and forgiveness from the Savior. No one else can help us overcome our sins, mistakes, etc. 

2. President Ezra Taft Benson put it most poignantly when he said, “When obedience ceases to be an irritant and becomes our quest, in that moment God will endow us with power.”

3. The Lord says: “Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. “And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.” (D&C 130:18–19.)

I don't get why we need to stress ourselves out - trying to attend every meeting, keep every rule, attend every optional event, etc. when we all need the Savior's grace. 

I also don't get what the benefit of "so much the advantage in the world to come" will be. I will be ahead of brother and sister Jones after we all die? Okay, and? Let's say they're ahead of me in their intelligence and knowledge and diligence and obedience - I'm 100% fine with that. I have all of eternity to catch up with them - at the same time, it's not a race and there's no end to time in eternity, so...? Unless the goals we set in mortality include obtaining certain callings or qualifying for the blessings from certain callings - I can not conceive of any reason why the afterlife would be a race ala "I'm ahead of Brother Jones. Ha ha!" "I'm behind brother jones. Oh no!" 

Isn't part of the reason we have Temple work specifically for those who weren't able to "start the race"/accept the Savior's restored gospel in mortality? 
If this principle of advancement applied to our pre-earth life - which is likely - I don't understand why that matters. If I was a slower Intelligence (likely) and needed more help in mortality (fact), I don't think God would love me less or be disappointed in me taking more time to learn and advance.

It's not talking about book knowledge and intelligence in D&C 130:18-19, because it spells it out that the knowledge and intelligence comes through our "diligence and obedience".

Our "knowledge" and "intelligence" of the Savior increases dramatically as we serve him.  And this is one of the main tests of this life, which is that once we have taken upon ourselves the name of Christ, we should be good representatives of his name to those around us.  As King Benjamin said, "For how knoweth a man the master whom he has not served, and who is a stranger unto him, and is far from the thoughts and intents of his heart?" (Mosiah 5:13)

All the parables in Matthew 25 come to mind, the ten virgins, the talents, but most especially the sheep and the goats (in verses 31-46). Those who do what the Savior would do (if he were here) are those to whom he says, "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matthew 25:34), because they fed the hungry, gave drink to the thirsty, and provided shelter to the stranger (all of which can be literal or have deep spiritual symbolism).  How we help and serve those around us while we are here is very important (according to that parable).  And in doing that we get to know him because, as he says "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me".

And even with that, it is still his divine grace that saves us, since none of us are perfect.  

[Dario_M]

3 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

 irritant

Irritant? Funny that's also a Dutch word as well. 

[Duncan]

I was told at the temple last night that there is no rush to get temple ordinances done because on the other side time doesn't exist and so what's the point in racing to the temple to do the work? All of it will be done and done properly in the millennium anyways so why really bother with it. I get that you don't want to get into a panic about it and upend your life to do temple work but it's nice to do it and go as often as you can

[CV75]

13 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Pls correct me if I'm wrong:

1. We all need grace and forgiveness from the Savior. No one else can help us overcome our sins, mistakes, etc. 

2. President Ezra Taft Benson put it most poignantly when he said, “When obedience ceases to be an irritant and becomes our quest, in that moment God will endow us with power.”

3. The Lord says: “Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. “And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.” (D&C 130:18–19.)

I don't get why we need to stress ourselves out - trying to attend every meeting, keep every rule, attend every optional event, etc. when we all need the Savior's grace. 

I also don't get what the benefit of "so much the advantage in the world to come" will be. I will be ahead of brother and sister Jones after we all die? Okay, and? Let's say they're ahead of me in their intelligence and knowledge and diligence and obedience - I'm 100% fine with that. I have all of eternity to catch up with them - at the same time, it's not a race and there's no end to time in eternity, so...? Unless the goals we set in mortality include obtaining certain callings or qualifying for the blessings from certain callings - I can not conceive of any reason why the afterlife would be a race ala "I'm ahead of Brother Jones. Ha ha!" "I'm behind brother jones. Oh no!" 

Isn't part of the reason we have Temple work specifically for those who weren't able to "start the race"/accept the Savior's restored gospel in mortality? 
If this principle of advancement applied to our pre-earth life - which is likely - I don't understand why that matters. If I was a slower Intelligence (likely) and needed more help in mortality (fact), I don't think God would love me less or be disappointed in me taking more time to learn and advance.

 

 

I think the advantage is in enjoying greater intelligence than we might have otherwise enjoyed had we been less observant, not in having more intelligence than other people. Similarly, Jesus used the phrase “More blessed are they/ye…” in 3 Nephi 12: 2 and 28:7 not to compare them with the blessed, for they all arrive a fulness at some point. In 12:2, the “more” is in the numbers of converts; in 28:7 the “more” is in the numbers of translated people. It is also better to be proactive like the brother of Jared was than to respond to specific invitations, within the scope of our innate capacity. Those addressed as “more” in 12:2 and 26:7 demonstrate that kind of faith.

God loves everyone no matter what, but there are also different kinds of love. Covenant love entails greater intelligence than other kinds of love such as paternal, fraternal, charitable, altruistic, etc. Forbearing love differs from all-embracing love. As long as we love God differently than He loves us, we might miss some of those distinctions.

When we do all that we can with a faithful, proactive attitude, and not with a forced, obligatory one, we receive grace, more intelligence, and thus advantage ourselves far more. We do not run faster than able (Mosiah 4:27, D&C 10:4), but we do run and not get weary.

[CV75]

4 hours ago, Duncan said:

I was told at the temple last night that there is no rush to get temple ordinances done because on the other side time doesn't exist and so what's the point in racing to the temple to do the work? All of it will be done and done properly in the millennium anyways so why really bother with it. I get that you don't want to get into a panic about it and upend your life to do temple work but it's nice to do it and go as often as you can

I think whoever told you that is very mixed up in several ways, but your final point makes sense to me.

[MustardSeed]

1 minute ago, CV75 said:

I think whoever told you that is very mixed up in several ways, but your final point makes sense to me.

Maybe God told him. 

[nuclearfuels]

13 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

stagnation is a threat to progression

True - what would you think if you were called to serve, in different callings, with the youth for 20 years?

[MustardSeed]

18 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

True - what would you think if you were called to serve, in different callings, with the youth for 20 years?

Raising my hand. I did for 12 years in a row. If you count years prior, I’ve done my time. But I’m sure I’ll be back again.

[CV75]

34 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Maybe God told him. 

I was thinking, and hoping, not  !

[Pyreaux]

19 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

True - what would you think if you were called to serve, in different callings, with the youth for 20 years?

You must be thought of as the fun adult in the ward. Or there is great need in such important callings.

I have this tick, if someone asks me if "can" do something, and if I can, I say yes. I can drive the missionaries. I can pick up investigators on the way to church. I can leave work to help someone move. But when I was asked to pick-up a new member, when I live on the edge of the ward, the church was at the center, and they were on the far side of ward, long passed the church, after 3 weeks of doing it, I complained to my Home Teaching companion who was angry on my behalf, told the ward mission leader, if I recall, the conversation was something like, "well, why didn't he refuse", "because he always does what he's asked". That ended it... Though, they called someone who live closer, they weren't able to do it consistently either. I never saw that new member much at all after that. I sometimes wonder if I did right thing complaining...

[Duncan]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

I was thinking, and hoping, not  !

no, it was the temple recorder! 

[CV75]

7 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

True - what would you think if you were called to serve, in different callings, with the youth for 20 years?

I wouldn't think of it as stagnation, given how the issues change over 20 years (while the Gospel does not).

[Kenngo1969]

14 hours ago, Duncan said:

I was told at the temple last night that there is no rush to get temple ordinances done because on the other side time doesn't exist and so what's the point in racing to the temple to do the work? All of it will be done and done properly in the millennium anyways so why really bother with it. I get that you don't want to get into a panic about it and upend your life to do temple work but it's nice to do it and go as often as you can

I don't think it's about performing the ordinances as much as it is about the kind of people we become as we prepare ourselves and become a Temple-going people, as well as the way that process continues as we perform ordinances on behalf of others.  My $0.02.  Others' mileage may vary.   

[manol]

On 10/25/2024 at 9:09 PM, nuclearfuels said:

The Lord says: “Whatever principle of intelligence we attain unto in this life, it will rise with us in the resurrection. “And if a person gains more knowledge and intelligence in this life through his diligence and obedience than another, he will have so much the advantage in the world to come.” (D&C 130:18–19.)

My understanding is that this is actually Joseph Smith's wording, that he's not quoting the Lord.  I don't think it's a 'competition", even though Joseph's choice of words could be interpreted that way. 

 

On 10/25/2024 at 9:09 PM, nuclearfuels said:

President Ezra Taft Benson put it most poignantly when he said, “When obedience ceases to be an irritant and becomes our quest, in that moment God will endow us with power.”

I have read or listened to hundreds if not thousands of near-death experiences, and have yet to encounter one near-death experiencer who returns and reports that the purpose of life is obedience. 

"Near-death experiencers come back with some lessons and what they tend to say is that our purpose in physical existence is to advance in our capacity to love.” - NDE researcher Janice Holden

I'm no Ezra Taft Benson, nor a near-death experiencer, but my lived experience has been more like this: 

"When advancing our capacity to love ceases to be an irritant and becomes our quest, in that moment God will endow us with power."

 

On 10/25/2024 at 9:09 PM, nuclearfuels said:

If I was a slower Intelligence (likely) and needed more help in mortality (fact), I don't think God would love me less or be disappointed in me taking more time to learn and advance

Agreed!

At the risk of oversimplifying:  God is love, and love makes no comparisons. 

Edited October 29, 2024 by manol

[let’s roll]

53 minutes ago, manol said:

I have read or listened to hundreds if not thousands of near-death experiences, and have yet to encounter one near-death experiencer who returns and reports that the purpose of life is obedience. 

"Near-death experiencers come back with some lessons and what they tend to say is that our purpose in physical existence is to advance in our capacity to love.” - NDE researcher Janice Holden

I'm no Ezra Taft Benson, nor a near-death experiencer, but my lived experience has been more like this: 

"When advancing our capacity to love ceases to be an irritant and becomes our quest, in that moment God will endow us with power."

Since the sum and substance of all commandments are rolled up into the two great commandments and the sole “obedience” required by those commandments is love, I have no issue with ETB’s statement or with the way you’ve chosen to understand it, which, I believe, is the way he intended it be understood.