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On 10/12/2024 at 6:07 PM, rpn said:

Why wouldn't believe Noah is a real person who lived: we know him as Angel Gabriel and he was noted in both the New Testament times and came to Joseph Smith in modern times.

There are plenty of Great Deluge stories worldwide.  In the ones from Mesopotamia, Greece, etc., the pilot of the Ark has different names:  Hurrian is the closest with Naḫmazuli, dNa-aḫ-ma-zu!-le(-el), and dNa-aḫ-ma-ú?-li-el.  Hebrew  נח Noaḥ for short.

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10 hours ago, Stargazer said:

The story in the temple Endowment does not teach history. It is a framing story that eases the instruction of the covenants for us. It is largely allegorical and symbolic. Do you remember there are messengers presented, one of which shakes a man's hand? That messenger is identified as someone who will not enter mortality himself for thousands of years. How does he shake anyone's mortal hand?

What is pictured in the modern Endowment is allegory. It is not literal.

Yes, of course.  The rib, the tree, the fruit, the snake, etc., are all figurative and symbolic, same as the bread & water (wine) of the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper.  When Jesus instituted such liturgy, saying den bisri "this is my body" (Aramaic), he did not mean to be taken literally.  It is an ordinance placed in a liturgical context.  The Creation & Garden Story is liturgy, not history. Time itself collapses and is irrelevant.  Think about that the next time you are headed to a Latter-day Saint za zen session.

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1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

According to Archbishop Ussher, Oct 23, 4004 BC was the first day of Creation (Gen 1:5).

And how did he calculate that?  Because if he was off by one day, Adam and I share a birthday (month and day obviously)

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

And how did he calculate that?  Because if he was off by one day, Adam and I share a birthday (month and day obviously)

This is from Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ussher_chronology

Quote

Ussher further narrowed down the date by using the Jewish calendar to establish the "first day" of creation as falling on a Sunday near the autumnal equinox.[9] The day of the week was a backward calculation from the six days of creation with God resting on the seventh, which in the Jewish calendar is Saturday—hence, Creation began on a Sunday. The astronomical tables that Ussher probably used were Kepler's Tabulae Rudolphinae (Rudolphine Tables, 1627). Using them, he would have concluded that the equinox occurred on Tuesday, October 25, only one day earlier than the traditional day of its creation, on the fourth day of Creation week, Wednesday, along with the Sun, Moon, and stars Genesis 1:16. Modern equations place the autumnal equinox of 4004 BC on Sunday, October 23 (by the Julian calendar).

 

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On 10/12/2024 at 11:55 PM, Dario_M said:

And why is it "rockstar level" to talk about the murderer of Joseph Smith and all of that anyway. Strange world we live in.

Genealogy is the strange world.  The more you get into your family tree, the more spicy it becomes.  Humans sin, and sometimes those sins are enshrined in an eternal record with impacts spanning generation upon generation.  

DNA tests that prove great grandma lied through her teeth.
People who got married multiple times, only to have the spouse die, only to marry again, only to have the next spouse die.  
Dude divorcing mom in their '70's, and marrying a teenager the next year.

The stories are endless.  In my family tree, there seems to be two things that show up every couple generations.  A little insanity, and a little conversion to Mormonism.  Never with the same person, which is nice.

The more you study genealogy, more likely humor will be useful as a coping mechanism.   I'm totally reverent about God's plan of happiness.  My heart has turned to my fathers.  Boy howdy do some of them not deserve to be thought about reverently.

Edited by LoudmouthMormon
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12 hours ago, Calm said:

What do you think of the Catholic reasoning for why it is meant realistically (using the word they use here https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/jesus-no-seriously-guys# )

Whatever one may make of the RC doctrine of Transubstantiation, Jesus clearly did not mean to be taken literally.  Even though He was the literal Passover Lamb of God.  However, in the pre-Columbian Mesoamerican world, communion meant ritual cannibalism of a godlike victim.  See pp. 54-55 online at Queue | An Illustrated Dictionary of the Gods and Symbols of Ancient Mexico and the Maya, Mary Miller and Karl Taube - PDFCOFFEE.COM .

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13 hours ago, Calm said:

And how did he calculate that?  Because if he was off by one day, Adam and I share a birthday (month and day obviously)

Ussher set the first on the Sunday before the Autumnal equinox.  That equinox was on Tuesday Oct 25, 4004 BC Julian (= Sept 23, 4004 BC our Gregorian).  So the Sunday before was Oct 23 Julian, followed by 6 days of creation, ending on day 7, Shabbat.  A comprehensive calculator is available online at When Was Jesus Crucified (wednesdaycrucifixion.com) (scroll down).  Ussher did, however, correctly infer the year of Jesus' birth as 5 BC.

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