Family History for Cain's descendants?

[nuclearfuels]

Curious as to if this is something the Church and FamilySearch allow:

Sources on Cain's descendants:

Biblical Sources:

• Genesis 4:17-24 (King James Version)

• Genesis 4:17-24 (New International Version)

Non-Biblical Sources:

• The Book of Jubilees ( Jewish apocrypha, 2nd century BCE)

• The Book of Enoch ( Jewish apocrypha, 3rd century BCE)

• The Apocalypse of Pseudo-Methodius ( Christian apocrypha, 7th century CE)

• The Cave of Treasures ( Syriac Christian text, 6th century CE)

• The History of the Patriarchs ( Islamic text, 9th century CE)

Other Sources:

• The Complete Works of Josephus ( Jewish historian, 1st century CE)

• The Ante-Nicene Fathers ( Christian texts, 2nd-4th century CE)

• The Gnostic Scriptures ( Gnostic Christian texts, 2nd-4th century CE)

Please note that some of these sources may have varying degrees of reliability, and interpretations may differ. Additionally, there may be other sources that explore Cain's descendants beyond these listed here.

[CV75]

3 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Curious as to if this is something the Church and FamilySearch allow:

Sources on Cain's descendants:

Biblical Sources:

• Genesis 4:17-24 (King James Version)

• Genesis 4:17-24 (New International Version)

Non-Biblical Sources:

• The Book of Jubilees ( Jewish apocrypha, 2nd century BCE)

• The Book of Enoch ( Jewish apocrypha, 3rd century BCE)

• The Apocalypse of Pseudo-Methodius ( Christian apocrypha, 7th century CE)

• The Cave of Treasures ( Syriac Christian text, 6th century CE)

• The History of the Patriarchs ( Islamic text, 9th century CE)

Other Sources:

• The Complete Works of Josephus ( Jewish historian, 1st century CE)

• The Ante-Nicene Fathers ( Christian texts, 2nd-4th century CE)

• The Gnostic Scriptures ( Gnostic Christian texts, 2nd-4th century CE)

Please note that some of these sources may have varying degrees of reliability, and interpretations may differ. Additionally, there may be other sources that explore Cain's descendants beyond these listed here.

How accepted are the sources going back to Adam and Abel (today)? Has anyone traced their "Cainal" line like some did with the European monarchs or the Sia Dynasty lines?

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, CV75 said:

How accepted are the sources going back to Adam and Abel (today)?

Accepted by whom?  Geneticists and other scientists?  Probably not.  By professional genealogists?  I hope not.  By hobbyists?  Probably some.  Hopefully not many.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Curious as to if this is something the Church and FamilySearch allow:

Sources on Cain's descendants:

Biblical Sources:

• Genesis 4:17-24 (King James Version)

• Genesis 4:17-24 (New International Version)

Non-Biblical Sources:

• The Book of Jubilees ( Jewish apocrypha, 2nd century BCE)

• The Book of Enoch ( Jewish apocrypha, 3rd century BCE)

• The Apocalypse of Pseudo-Methodius ( Christian apocrypha, 7th century CE)

• The Cave of Treasures ( Syriac Christian text, 6th century CE)

• The History of the Patriarchs ( Islamic text, 9th century CE)

Other Sources:

• The Complete Works of Josephus ( Jewish historian, 1st century CE)

• The Ante-Nicene Fathers ( Christian texts, 2nd-4th century CE)

• The Gnostic Scriptures ( Gnostic Christian texts, 2nd-4th century CE)

Please note that some of these sources may have varying degrees of reliability, and interpretations may differ. Additionally, there may be other sources that explore Cain's descendants beyond these listed here.

If Cain has any descendants in existence today, we are all his descendants.

So what do you mean by accepted?

[The Nehor]

I know that when the Bible gives a genealogy of Esau’s descendants it is a complete mess. I can’t help but see it as something of a polemic against them suggesting they are disordered and chaotic. At least not as bad as what the Moabites and Ammonites got.

Edited October 11 by The Nehor

[CV75]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Accepted by whom?  Geneticists and other scientists?  Probably not.  By professional genealogists?  I hope not.  By hobbyists?  Probably some.  Hopefully not many.

Accepted by FamilySearch, whether the submitted genealogy is correct or not -- there are lots of legacy presumptions and errors in there, and even some new ones...!

I imagine not many people would pretend to having an ignoble genealogy that leads back Cain, as they pretend to with nobility that goes back to Adam/Seth, so it seems likely that ties to Cain are absent in FamilySearch (but I thought I'd ask!).

I am actually descended from another son of Adam, Schlomo and his second wife, Etta.

Edited October 12 by CV75

[webbles]

Here's one of the entries for Adam in FamilySearch - https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/KG97-S9V.  It lists 57 children.  The Cain entry is https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/L6G6-PQZ and has 4 wives and 7 children.

 

[CV75]

13 minutes ago, webbles said:

Here's one of the entries for Adam in FamilySearch - https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/KG97-S9V.  It lists 57 children.  The Cain entry is https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/L6G6-PQZ and has 4 wives and 7 children.

 

I like how they used Jewish naming formats long before Hebrew came about.

This is why FamilySearch scares me a little... On both these links, we get a caution banner that reads: "Important research has been done on this person. Please read these alert notes before making changes." Countered at least by the "Research Help" and "Data Problems" notes...

[Calm]

1 hour ago, webbles said:

Here's one of the entries for Adam in FamilySearch - https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/KG97-S9V.  It lists 57 children.  The Cain entry is https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/L6G6-PQZ and has 4 wives and 7 children.

 

Born the 29th of October 4004….I get the year, but really the month and day?

Edited October 12 by Calm

[Stargazer]

22 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Curious as to if this is something the Church and FamilySearch allow:

Sources on Cain's descendants:

Biblical Sources:

• Genesis 4:17-24 (King James Version)

• Genesis 4:17-24 (New International Version)

Non-Biblical Sources:

• The Book of Jubilees ( Jewish apocrypha, 2nd century BCE)

• The Book of Enoch ( Jewish apocrypha, 3rd century BCE)

• The Apocalypse of Pseudo-Methodius ( Christian apocrypha, 7th century CE)

• The Cave of Treasures ( Syriac Christian text, 6th century CE)

• The History of the Patriarchs ( Islamic text, 9th century CE)

Other Sources:

• The Complete Works of Josephus ( Jewish historian, 1st century CE)

• The Ante-Nicene Fathers ( Christian texts, 2nd-4th century CE)

• The Gnostic Scriptures ( Gnostic Christian texts, 2nd-4th century CE)

Please note that some of these sources may have varying degrees of reliability, and interpretations may differ. Additionally, there may be other sources that explore Cain's descendants beyond these listed here.

I have a radical opinion to express.

That opinion is that I believe the human part of the creation tale as expressed in the Bible, or other biblical scripture, to be very, very, very figurative or symbolic. And not literal, at least in most aspects. I believe that those persons named in the scriptures at the beginning did exist, but I reject the idea that we know anything about how long ago it all took place. Archbishop Ussher's calculations are fine as far as they go, but there is no way humankind started up in 4004 BC.

So trying to find Cain's descendants is an unprofitable task. 

[2BizE]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I have a radical opinion to express.

That opinion is that I believe the human part of the creation tale as expressed in the Bible, or other biblical scripture, to be very, very, very figurative or symbolic. And not literal, at least in most aspects. I believe that those persons named in the scriptures at the beginning did exist, but I reject the idea that we know anything about how long ago it all took place. Archbishop Ussher's calculations are fine as far as they go, but there is no way humankind started up in 4004 BC.

So trying to find Cain's descendants is an unprofitable task. 

Agreed. Even Dan McClellan, one of our most prominent Scholars of ancient scripture has indicated there is no data to suggest characters in the Old Testament were historical people up until King David. Adam, Eve, Cain, Moses, Noah, etc. These were likely just stories and not actual people.

[Stargazer]

17 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

Agreed. Even Dan McClellan, one of our most prominent Scholars of ancient scripture has indicated there is no data to suggest characters in the Old Testament were historical people up until King David. Adam, Eve, Cain, Moses, Noah, etc. These were likely just stories and not actual people.

I don't think you agree with me entirely. There is no physical evidence that any of them existed, yes, but that doesn't mean they didn't exist. Personally, I am convinced that they did exist. And physical evidence isn't required to verify the existence of someone in antiquity. Do we know that Paul existed? We know nothing of him except what is written of him in the New Testament, and maybe in some other near-contemporaneous literature. But nobody doubts his existence. Lack of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[rpn]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

, Noah, etc

Why wouldn't believe Noah is a real person who lived: we know him as Angel Gabriel and he was noted in both the New Testament times and came to Joseph Smith in modern times.

[LoudmouthMormon]

Whoa.   While doing genealogy, I've occasionally had the fleeting hope that I would find out that one of my ancestors was in the mob that murdered Joseph, because it would give me something fun to say at ward potlucks.  But taking interest in being a descendent of Cain is like rockstar level.  

[nuclearfuels]

5 hours ago, 2BizE said:

9 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I have a radical opinion to express.

That opinion is that I believe the human part of the creation tale as expressed in the Bible, or other biblical scripture, to be very, very, very figurative or symbolic. And not literal, at least in most aspects. I believe that those persons named in the scriptures at the beginning did exist, but I reject the idea that we know anything about how long ago it all took place. Archbishop Ussher's calculations are fine as far as they go, but there is no way humankind started up in 4004 BC.

So trying to find Cain's descendants is an unprofitable task. 

Expand  

Agreed. Even Dan McClellan, one of our most prominent Scholars of ancient scripture has indicated there is no data to suggest characters in the Old Testament were historical people up until King David. Adam, Eve, Cain, Moses, Noah, etc. These were likely just stories and not actual people.

Why then would we be presented with their story / one eternal round / journey, etc. in the Temple?
Honestly - my original question came about when I saw someone on FamilySearch suggest Cain married Lilith or had a daughter named Lilith. 
 

• The Bible: Although Lilith is not mentioned directly in the Bible, some interpretations suggest that she is referred to in Isaiah 34:14, which mentions a "night hag" or "screech owl."

• The Talmud: The Talmud (a central text of Rabbinic Judaism) mentions Lilith in several passages, including in the tractate Erubin 100b and Niddah 24b.

• The Midrash: The Midrash (a collection of Jewish biblical interpretation) also mentions Lilith, particularly in the Alpha Beta de-Ben Sira (a medieval text).

• The Dead Sea Scrolls: Some of the Dead Sea Scrolls contain references to Lilith, such as the "Song of the Sage" (4Q510-511).

• Apocryphal texts: The apocryphal Book of Enoch (1 Enoch 6:1-3) and the Book of Jubilees (Jubilees 3:8) mention Lilith.

• Gnostic texts: Some Gnostic texts, like the "Gospel of Philip" and "The Sophia of Jesus Christ," feature Lilith.

• Medieval European folklore: Lilith appears in various forms of medieval European folklore, often depicted as a seductress or evil spirit.

• Modern interpretations: In recent times, Lilith has been reinterpreted as a symbol of feminine power and independence in some feminist and literary circles.

2 hours ago, rpn said:

Why wouldn't believe Noah is a real person who lived: we know him as Angel Gabriel and he was noted in both the New Testament times and came to Joseph Smith in modern times.

Agreed, rpn.

[nuclearfuels]

1 minute ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

rockstar level

Being a ROCKSTAR, I agree 100%. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

But taking interest in being a descendent of Cain is like rockstar level.  

Again, if anyone is a descendent of Cain in this world today, we all are, so why rockstar?

[Dario_M]

On 10/11/2024 at 8:08 PM, nuclearfuels said:

Curious as to if this is something the Church and FamilySearch allow:

Sources on Cain's descendants:

Biblical Sources:

• Genesis 4:17-24 (King James Version)

• Genesis 4:17-24 (New International Version)

Non-Biblical Sources:

• The Book of Jubilees ( Jewish apocrypha, 2nd century BCE)

• The Book of Enoch ( Jewish apocrypha, 3rd century BCE)

• The Apocalypse of Pseudo-Methodius ( Christian apocrypha, 7th century CE)

• The Cave of Treasures ( Syriac Christian text, 6th century CE)

• The History of the Patriarchs ( Islamic text, 9th century CE)

Other Sources:

• The Complete Works of Josephus ( Jewish historian, 1st century CE)

• The Ante-Nicene Fathers ( Christian texts, 2nd-4th century CE)

• The Gnostic Scriptures ( Gnostic Christian texts, 2nd-4th century CE)

Please note that some of these sources may have varying degrees of reliability, and interpretations may differ. Additionally, there may be other sources that explore Cain's descendants beyond these listed here.

Do you have the bible new testament with you that you know all about these scriptures? I want to check it so badly but i don't have a bible. Sooo...i can't give my point of view. 

[Dario_M]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Again, if anyone is a descendent of Cain in this world today, we all are, so why rockstar?

Yeah indeed right. And why is it "rockstar level" to talk about the murderer of Joseph Smith and all of that anyway. Strange world we live in. 🤷‍♀️

Edited October 13 by Dario_M

[CV75]

14 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Whoa.   While doing genealogy, I've occasionally had the fleeting hope that I would find out that one of my ancestors was in the mob that murdered Joseph, because it would give me something fun to say at ward potlucks.  But taking interest in being a descendent of Cain is like rockstar level.  

Yes, I started out but I wasn't valiant.

[Stargazer]

21 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Why then would we be presented with their story / one eternal round / journey, etc. in the Temple?

The story in the temple Endowment does not teach history. It is a framing story that eases the instruction of the covenants for us. It is largely allegorical and symbolic. Do you remember there are messengers presented, one of which shakes a man's hand? That messenger is identified as someone who will not enter mortality himself for thousands of years. How does he shake anyone's mortal hand?

What is pictured in the modern Endowment is allegory. It is not literal.

[Stargazer]

On 10/13/2024 at 1:07 AM, rpn said:

Why wouldn't believe Noah is a real person who lived: we know him as Angel Gabriel and he was noted in both the New Testament times and came to Joseph Smith in modern times.

You misunderstood. We would believe he was a real person. What I doubt is that he lived sometime between 4004 and 1 BC. He would have lived much earlier.

Archbishop Ussher's chronology is flawed by an insistence that the Creation story must taken exactly literally.

[Zosimus]

On 10/12/2024 at 1:08 AM, nuclearfuels said:

Non-Biblical Sources:

• The History of the Patriarchs (Islamic text, 9th century CE)

Do you have more info on this "The History of the Patriarchs"? I've searched but haven't found an Islamic text with this name dating to 9th century.

Reason I ask, there's an Islamic historian, Tabari, who recorded a unique Cainite line likely based on Judeo-Christian traditions circulating in the 9th/10th century: 

"Jared was born to Mahalalel and his maternal aunt Sim'an*, the daughter of Barakil b. Mehujael b. Enoch b. Cain. He was the legatee and successor of his father, according to what his father Mahalalel had set down in his last will addressed to him when he made him his successor after his death...when Jared was 162 years old, he married Barakna, the daughter of al Darmasil b. Mehujael b. Enoch b. Cain b. Adam. She bore him his son Enoch, who is the prophet Idris. He was the first of Adam's children to be given prophecy - as Ibn Ishaq assumed - and the first to write with a pen." (source)

* Book of Jubilees identifies the mother of Jared as Dinah, a sister of Sim'an

The first thing that stands out in Tabari's Cainite genealogy is that the mother of Enoch (son of Jared) was a maternal descendant of Cain. Then there's the mention of the grandson of Cain, Mehujael, who was the father of Barakil. This is unusually similar to the Book of Giants, which identifies the giant Mahaway as the son of Baraq’el. Could it be that in the 10th century Arabic histories, Mahaway had become linked to Mehujael? In support of this possibility, Pseudo-Masudi's Akhbar al Zaman also mentions a descendant of Cain called King Mahwil, or Yamaḥuel:

"After the birth of Noah, scholars and soothsayers related these visions to King Mahwîl, telling him that the world would be destroyed in the time of this child and that the child would have a long life. They thought that a flood would overwhelm the earth. Mahwîl ordered the construction of fortresses on the highest mountaintops as places of refuge. They built seven, which received the names of the seven idols worshiped by his race; and the Cainites inscribed in these fortresses a part of their sciences. It is also said that the king had them built for himself personally."

As Bradshaw and @Ryan Dahle note here, Reeves and Reed take this King Mahwil/Yamaḥuel mentioned in Akhbar al Zaman to be an intended reference to the biblical Mehujael. Later in the Akhbar al Zaman, Pseudo-Masudi says "When Noah was 200 years old, Mahwîl, king of impiety, died, leaving the throne to his son Darmashil." (source)

As far as I can tell, this appears to be the same Darmasil mentioned as the son of Mehujael in the Tabari passage above. This seems to confirm that Arabic historians like Tabari intended King Mahwil/Yamaḥuel to be the biblical Mehujael. And according to Tabari, Darmasil son of Mehujael was the grandfather of both Enoch/Idris and Ham's wife:

"The wife of Ham b. Noah was Nahlab bt. Marib b. al-Darmasil b. Mehujael b. Enoch b. Cain b. Adam. She bore him three offspring: Cush b. Ham b. Noah, Put b. Ham, and Canaan b. Ham. Cush b. Ham b. Noah married Qarnabil, the daughter of Batawil b. Tiras b. Japheth, and it is asserted that she bore him the Abyssinians, Sindis and Indians. Put b. Ham b. Noah married Bakht, another daughter of Batawil b. Tiras b. Japheth b. Noah, and it is said that she bore him the Copts—that is, the Copts of Egypt." (source)

This seems to support Colby Townsend's case that Mahujah in the Book of Moses is related to Mehujael from Judeo-Christian and Arabic genealogies, and not Mahaway from the Book of Giants. Although I suppose the case could still be made that both Joseph Smith and Tabari were drawing from the older Book of Giants traditions, to me, it seems more likely that Joseph Smith was familiar with the material in Tabari and Masudi. Here are two additional examples supporting this:

In the Book of Abraham, Egyptus (the daughter of Ham and his wife Zeptah/Egyptus) discovers Egypt and names her son Pharaoh. It seems to me that Zeptah/Egyptus was the Cainite great grand-daughter of King Mahwil/Mehujael from Tabari's genealogy.

One more interesting link between the genealogies provided by Tabari and Masudi and the revealed texts of Joseph Smith.

In Masudi's Meadows of Gold, there is a post-diluvian Jared, a son of Abur/Amir, who was a son of Japheth. This Jared was said to be the grandfather of the first king in China. His brothers were said to be the first settlers in India and Tibet.

We aren't told where Masudi's Jared settled, but in the Akhbar al Zaman, his father Abur/Amir builds ships modeled after Noah's ark to sail east to China. (source) Of course the Book of Ether also tells of the journey of a Jared and his family from the confusion of languages, across (according to Nibley) central Asia to China and then in boats modeled after Noah's ark to the Americas.

Is Masudi's Jared related to Jared from the Book of Ether?

[Robert F. Smith]

On 10/11/2024 at 9:47 PM, Calm said:

Born the 29th of October 4004….I get the year, but really the month and day?

According to Archbishop Ussher, Oct 23, 4004 BC was the first day of Creation (Gen 1:5).

[Robert F. Smith]

On 10/12/2024 at 3:41 PM, 2BizE said:

..... Adam, Eve, Cain, Moses, Noah, etc. These were likely just stories and not actual people.

The consensus among biblical scholars is that adam "man" & isha "woman" (eve "creatress") are archetypal figures, not actual names.  Moreover, in line with the statement by Anglican Bishop Tom Wright that the Creation & Garden story is "a temple story," I see the entire account as liturgy, not history.  See Wright's comments at  

.