The Creation, Eternal Progress, the Valiancy of Trees, III

[nuclearfuels]

Seeking your thoughts on the possibility and probability of all of us progressing to the point of being born into a human mortal body with a human, mortal-shaped / faceted spirit body, after successfully completing these previous periods of growth and progression:

1. First Day: Creation of light (Genesis 1:3-5; Moses 2:3-5; Abraham 4:3-5). This would be when we came from God's presence and according to the degree of our ability, shined, separated light from darkness, etc.
2. Second Day: Separation of the firmament (Genesis 1:6-8; Moses 2:6-8; Abraham 4:6-8) This would be when we came from God's presence and according to the degree of our ability, connected with other Intelligences - some of us helped form the firmament (I've definitely been rock-like in more than one Sacrament meeting  ), some of us were clouds, some of us returned promising to shine even brighter than we did last time, etc.
3. Third Day: Creation of land, seas, and vegetation (Genesis 1:9-13; Moses 2:9-13; Abraham 4:9-13) This would be when we came from God's presence and according to the degree of our ability, we connected with other intelligences and became part of the land, seas, or vegetation - fulfilling the measure of our creation.
4. Fourth Day: Creation of sun, moon, and stars (Genesis 1:14-19; Moses 2:14-19; Abraham 4:14-19) This would be when we came from God's presence and according to the degree of our ability, shined - as part of the sun, moon, stars, continued to separate light from darkness, etc.
5. Fifth Day: Creation of fish, fowl, and other aquatic animals (Genesis 1:20-23; Moses 2:20-23; Abraham 4:20-23) This would be when we came from God's presence having achieved a spirit body that correlated to our form of that day (fish, fowl, other aquatic animals, etc.) and according to the degree of our ability, fulfilled the measure of our creation.
6. Sixth Day: Creation of land animals and humanity (Genesis 1:24-31; Moses 2:24-31; Abraham 4:24-31) This would be when we came from God's presence and according to the degree of our ability, took our form of the day - animal or human, or animal and later, human.
7. Seventh Day: Rest and sanctification (Genesis 2:1-3; Moses 3:1-3; Abraham 5:1-3)
8. We live, die, are judged, resurrected, continue to progress eternally - overtime giving pre-mortal lessons to other intelligences, some of whom will progress and grow to the point of obtaining a mortal body. 

After each Day, we'd return and report on what we did and how we did the best we could and can not progress further without the Savior's grace. The Savior or His servants there (Apostles, GA's, Stake leaders, ward leaders, ministering brothers and sisters, etc.) would share with us how proud God is of the progress we made, how it's ok if we need another try, a slower paced lesson, etc. and how God and Jesus know we'll make it in time back home to them in a resurrcted immortal perfect body.

   * * *

President Boyd K. Packer remembers being in the temple with President McKay just before President McKay’s death. After finishing an Endowment ceremony, President McKay exclaimed, “I think I am beginning to understand it.”[3] Even after sixty-five years of being an Apostle, he was still a student.

(Note: 65 years serving as an Apostle where I think the Quorum attends the Temple once per week, = 3,380 times of completing the Endowment (if we assume he never completed that ordinance prior to being ordained an apostle.))

https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-4-no-2-2003/recollections-david-o-mckays-educational-practices

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-david-o-mckay/the-life-and-ministry-of-david-o-mckay?lang=eng 

[CV75]

4 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Seeking your thoughts on the possibility and probability of all of us progressing to the point of being born into a human mortal body with a human, mortal-shaped / faceted spirit body, after successfully completing these previous periods of growth and progression:

1. First Day: Creation of light (Genesis 1:3-5; Moses 2:3-5; Abraham 4:3-5). This would be when we came from God's presence and according to the degree of our ability, shined, separated light from darkness, etc.
2. Second Day: Separation of the firmament (Genesis 1:6-8; Moses 2:6-8; Abraham 4:6-8) This would be when we came from God's presence and according to the degree of our ability, connected with other Intelligences - some of us helped form the firmament (I've definitely been rock-like in more than one Sacrament meeting  ), some of us were clouds, some of us returned promising to shine even brighter than we did last time, etc.
3. Third Day: Creation of land, seas, and vegetation (Genesis 1:9-13; Moses 2:9-13; Abraham 4:9-13) This would be when we came from God's presence and according to the degree of our ability, we connected with other intelligences and became part of the land, seas, or vegetation - fulfilling the measure of our creation.
4. Fourth Day: Creation of sun, moon, and stars (Genesis 1:14-19; Moses 2:14-19; Abraham 4:14-19) This would be when we came from God's presence and according to the degree of our ability, shined - as part of the sun, moon, stars, continued to separate light from darkness, etc.
5. Fifth Day: Creation of fish, fowl, and other aquatic animals (Genesis 1:20-23; Moses 2:20-23; Abraham 4:20-23) This would be when we came from God's presence having achieved a spirit body that correlated to our form of that day (fish, fowl, other aquatic animals, etc.) and according to the degree of our ability, fulfilled the measure of our creation.
6. Sixth Day: Creation of land animals and humanity (Genesis 1:24-31; Moses 2:24-31; Abraham 4:24-31) This would be when we came from God's presence and according to the degree of our ability, took our form of the day - animal or human, or animal and later, human.
7. Seventh Day: Rest and sanctification (Genesis 2:1-3; Moses 3:1-3; Abraham 5:1-3)
8. We live, die, are judged, resurrected, continue to progress eternally - overtime giving pre-mortal lessons to other intelligences, some of whom will progress and grow to the point of obtaining a mortal body. 

After each Day, we'd return and report on what we did and how we did the best we could and can not progress further without the Savior's grace. The Savior or His servants there (Apostles, GA's, Stake leaders, ward leaders, ministering brothers and sisters, etc.) would share with us how proud God is of the progress we made, how it's ok if we need another try, a slower paced lesson, etc. and how God and Jesus know we'll make it in time back home to them in a resurrcted immortal perfect body.

   * * *

President Boyd K. Packer remembers being in the temple with President McKay just before President McKay’s death. After finishing an Endowment ceremony, President McKay exclaimed, “I think I am beginning to understand it.”[3] Even after sixty-five years of being an Apostle, he was still a student.

(Note: 65 years serving as an Apostle where I think the Quorum attends the Temple once per week, = 3,380 times of completing the Endowment (if we assume he never completed that ordinance prior to being ordained an apostle.))

https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-4-no-2-2003/recollections-david-o-mckays-educational-practices

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-david-o-mckay/the-life-and-ministry-of-david-o-mckay?lang=eng 

The model can certainly be used to teach basic principles.

The first 7 periods could also represent 7 lifetimes, with the first 6 representing a progressive transmigration of the intelligence along the spectrum of element at the finest levels to spirit to soul, evolving in intelligence, spirit and physical form (not the same as reincarnation), and the 7th representing the assumption of a resurrected kingdom of glory.

[ZealouslyStriving]

🤔 Definitely food for thought.

[LoudmouthMormon]

5 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

animal or human, or animal and later, human.

Animal first, then human?  Not sure what this means.

 

[Calm]

6 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Seeking your thoughts on the possibility and probability of all of us progressing to the point of being born into a human mortal body with a human, mortal-shaped / faceted spirit body, after successfully completing these previous periods of growth and progression:

1. First Day: Creation of light (Genesis 1:3-5; Moses 2:3-5; Abraham 4:3-5). This would be when we came from God's presence and according to the degree of our ability, shined, separated light from darkness, etc.
2. Second Day: Separation of the firmament (Genesis 1:6-8; Moses 2:6-8; Abraham 4:6-8) This would be when we came from God's presence and according to the degree of our ability, connected with other Intelligences - some of us helped form the firmament (I've definitely been rock-like in more than one Sacrament meeting  ), some of us were clouds, some of us returned promising to shine even brighter than we did last time, etc.
3. Third Day: Creation of land, seas, and vegetation (Genesis 1:9-13; Moses 2:9-13; Abraham 4:9-13) This would be when we came from God's presence and according to the degree of our ability, we connected with other intelligences and became part of the land, seas, or vegetation - fulfilling the measure of our creation.
4. Fourth Day: Creation of sun, moon, and stars (Genesis 1:14-19; Moses 2:14-19; Abraham 4:14-19) This would be when we came from God's presence and according to the degree of our ability, shined - as part of the sun, moon, stars, continued to separate light from darkness, etc.
5. Fifth Day: Creation of fish, fowl, and other aquatic animals (Genesis 1:20-23; Moses 2:20-23; Abraham 4:20-23) This would be when we came from God's presence having achieved a spirit body that correlated to our form of that day (fish, fowl, other aquatic animals, etc.) and according to the degree of our ability, fulfilled the measure of our creation.
6. Sixth Day: Creation of land animals and humanity (Genesis 1:24-31; Moses 2:24-31; Abraham 4:24-31) This would be when we came from God's presence and according to the degree of our ability, took our form of the day - animal or human, or animal and later, human.
7. Seventh Day: Rest and sanctification (Genesis 2:1-3; Moses 3:1-3; Abraham 5:1-3)
8. We live, die, are judged, resurrected, continue to progress eternally - overtime giving pre-mortal lessons to other intelligences, some of whom will progress and grow to the point of obtaining a mortal body. 

After each Day, we'd return and report on what we did and how we did the best we could and can not progress further without the Savior's grace. The Savior or His servants there (Apostles, GA's, Stake leaders, ward leaders, ministering brothers and sisters, etc.) would share with us how proud God is of the progress we made, how it's ok if we need another try, a slower paced lesson, etc. and how God and Jesus know we'll make it in time back home to them in a resurrcted immortal perfect body.

   * * *

President Boyd K. Packer remembers being in the temple with President McKay just before President McKay’s death. After finishing an Endowment ceremony, President McKay exclaimed, “I think I am beginning to understand it.”[3] Even after sixty-five years of being an Apostle, he was still a student.

(Note: 65 years serving as an Apostle where I think the Quorum attends the Temple once per week, = 3,380 times of completing the Endowment (if we assume he never completed that ordinance prior to being ordained an apostle.))

https://rsc.byu.edu/vol-4-no-2-2003/recollections-david-o-mckays-educational-practices

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-david-o-mckay/the-life-and-ministry-of-david-o-mckay?lang=eng 

When you say “connected” do you mean our spirits are made vegetable and connected to a physical vegetable body, then animal spirit and body and then human body and spirit?

 

[nuclearfuels]

20 hours ago, CV75 said:

The model can certainly be used to teach basic principles.

The first 7 periods could also represent 7 lifetimes, with the first 6 representing a progressive transmigration of the intelligence along the spectrum of element at the finest levels to spirit to soul, evolving in intelligence, spirit and physical form (not the same as reincarnation), and the 7th representing the assumption of a resurrected kingdom of glory.

Thanks CV!
Seems more likely than all of us learning lessons - not walking by sight - and then returning to God's presence, no?

Otherwise it seems like out premortal lessons were basically like the experiences from the book titled The Giver

[CV75]

2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Thanks CV!
Seems more likely than all of us learning lessons - not walking by sight - and then returning to God's presence, no?

Otherwise it seems like out premortal lessons were basically like the experiences from the book titled The Giver

I am not familiar with The Giver, but my proposition above is more my imaginativeness than belief. To self-critique it, it doesn't show the role of Jesus in the progressive estates. Instead, we develop from inanimate objects that are acted upon to human spirits (who, then, are our Heavenly Parents? -- the infinite regress would indicate an infinitesimally inanimate particle) while He plows ahead without us, which is out of Character, until we find Him in the Council of Heaven. The loss of memory between the 7 stages is a function of becoming "new [or different] creatures," with neither moral nor mechanical guidance. The light of Christ was the atom before governing the atom, yet His memory of being an atom (or the combined memory of many atoms coming together) is lost as He progresses along the way. So, a question this brings up for me is, "Can Christ govern an atom if He hasn't been one?" I think He could, given that a spirit person can be very observant.

But whatever model one wishes to use to symbolize eternal progress, I think the Creation story is a great reference.

I think our teachings allow that we participated with Christ in the Creation after the Council and War in Heaven. We continue to participate with Him as mortals, first by reflecting the light of Christ when there is no priesthood dispensation or hearing the restored gospel message, and then as Saviors on Mount Zion when we have it. We may well have participated as premortal ministering angels, helping mortals in some fashion before our births, and maybe even after our deaths prior to resurrection or as resurrected angels.

Of course all this pretty much ignores the meaning of the experience of every other form of life and "dust" fulfilling the measure of their creation, but that is only because we have a veil of forgetfulness  . Maybe the perfection of every other creature and their happiness, which is a function of our being wise stewards, enriches our own, and the light of Christ organizes the particles that organize them.

ETA: I think no matter the numbers of steps we insert to try to make sense of spiritual things, the basic plan of salvation nets the same results with the same requirements.

Edited October 4 by CV75

[echelon]

This makes me think about the oriental belief around cultivation, where animals and plants who cultivate long enough can take on human form.  Do you think this model is still in play today (at least for this world)?  It will be sad if all the chickens and cows advance to the human state if it is...no more wings or steaks.  But I also feel sad for the chickens and cows who don't advance, they get to come back just to be eaten again.

[CV75]

On 10/5/2024 at 12:39 PM, echelon said:

This makes me think about the oriental belief around cultivation, where animals and plants who cultivate long enough can take on human form.  Do you think this model is still in play today (at least for this world)?  It will be sad if all the chickens and cows advance to the human state if it is...no more wings or steaks.  But I also feel sad for the chickens and cows who don't advance, they get to come back just to be eaten again.

Well, I guess i gotta cultivate a bit longer...

Edited October 7 by CV75

[Robert F. Smith]

On 10/3/2024 at 10:02 AM, nuclearfuels said:

.................... progressing to the point of being born into a human mortal body with a human, mortal-shaped / faceted spirit body, after successfully completing these previous periods of growth and progression:

..........when we came from God's presence and according to the degree of our ability, we connected with other intelligences and became part of the land, seas, or vegetation - fulfilling the measure of our creation.

............ when we came from God's presence having achieved a spirit body that correlated to our form of that day (fish, fowl, other aquatic animals, etc.) and according to the degree of our ability, fulfilled the measure of our creation.

........... when we came from God's presence and according to the degree of our ability, took our form of the day - animal or human, or animal and later, human.

....................We live, die, are judged, resurrected, continue to progress eternally - overtime giving pre-mortal lessons to other intelligences, some of whom will progress and grow to the point of obtaining a mortal body. 

...................

President Boyd K. Packer remembers being in the temple with President McKay just before President McKay’s death. After finishing an Endowment ceremony, President McKay exclaimed, “I think I am beginning to understand it.”[3] Even after sixty-five years of being an Apostle, he was still a student.  ...............................

I don't know about the transmigration of souls, although Orson Pratt was certain that animals will be in the next life (see his comments in The Seer).  As to plants, I saw something the other day on how plants appreciate music, so it's not just the cows.  SunChips | Sunbelievably Good :30 (youtube.com)

Hugh Nibley used to say the say the same thing as Pres McKay about the temple.

[nuclearfuels]

21 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Hugh Nibley used to say the same thing as Pres McKay about the temple

Thanks for your response, Robert!

What do you think Hugh and Pres. McKay were suggesting? 

If there was a veil each time we came to earth, each of the 6 creative periods, and a veil after we died - I'm struggling to see other interpretations outside of transmigration but I'm no expert / scholar

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

...........

What do you think Hugh and Pres. McKay were suggesting? 

......................

Each of them was suggesting that the temple is a learning experience.  Nibley said that he learned something new every time he went.