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5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Works for Heavenly Father. We should not underestimate the power of parental love, even for multiple children. 

We aren’t deities. I’ve read my ancestors journals. I’m sorry if you have 15 kids you can’t have the same kind of relationship that is possible if you have a couple. 

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5 hours ago, california boy said:

Well actually it can get you excommunicated.  I got excommunicated because I refused to promise that I would never have a male partner and be in a relationship with him.  It is kinda leadership roulette what happens.

What leadership role you might have and how active you are is a factor in how it is handled.

Are you saying that Church leaders or active members who are gay and having sexual relations with a partner get a pass? Maybe I misunderstand what you said. 

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17 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

We aren’t deities. I’ve read my ancestors journals. I’m sorry if you have 15 kids you can’t have the same kind of relationship that is possible if you have a couple. 

We have seven. We are very close, even those who have strayed. Granted it takes determination and effort, but parental love doesn’t get diluted by numbers. Polygamy was very difficult, but it served its purpose, even if imperfectly. Those he endured it in faith will in no wise loose their reward.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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40 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I was responding to this…”The father is only important to his many children as the head of the family and decision-maker, but a genuine father-son/daughter relationship is only possible in rare cases.”

Rare is closer to none than a few, some, or many. I don’t believe that claim. I offered as proof the documented relationship between Brigham and his sons. I have no reason to believe he did not have close relationships with his daughters, too.

 

 

My issue is even if close relationships are possible with some of the kids, the children who don’t have it will feel the lack even more by observing the kids that do. 

I didn’t have a close relationship with my dad. Even before I was a teen, I wanted to do things my own way (just like he did, lol) and he wasn’t good at compromising or even understanding why I would want to (it is pretty clear he was autistic and while massively caring for others to the point that was the focus on his life, he had a very hard time putting himself in other people’s place and understanding their POV) and even more of an issue, I was pretty independent and he interacted with others by helping them, solving their problems, not by talking and then listening…except in the car on long drives and then he would throw out some controversy and pick your brain because he wanted to see how you thought (I am much like him in a lot of ways).  About the last 15 years of his life, my house became the overnight stop on the way to his actual visits.  It was very painful for me, a real void in my life, especially since even when he was there, he wasn’t really as he would be too tired from driving and had no interest in talking.  

It was and is very hard not to start thinking “what is wrong with me that he was never interested in me?”.  I don’t think he had favorites in the sense of caring for others more than me as if I ever came up with something I could convince him I needed him for, he was there; but that still didn’t remove the knowledge that he wasn’t interested in me as a person.  He didn’t make an effort to spend time with me.

I feel deeply, oh so deeply for any child that gets put in that position of lacking a relationship with their father for whatever reason.  I wonder how many children in polygamous marriages felt they were just a stop, a duty of their father on the way to what he really wanted to do, not because he didn’t love them, but because he lacked the time to show them he cared about them as individuals.  I wonder how many would have felt differently if the father had only that family to care for.

Edited by Calm
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20 hours ago, The Nehor said:

A common sentiment in the poly community. Love is unlimited. The time and resources to express that love are limited.

Love works both ways, parent to child and child to parent, and both to and from God. It can vary directionally except when it is unconditional as in God’s love - charity. It is a gift that we seek in our relationships with everyone and especially with our families. Charity compensated for time and resources.

What resources do you think are needed to express love?

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16 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

parental love doesn’t get diluted by numbers.

Expressions of parental love can though.

And you can love a child but if you only spend short lengths of time here and there with them and lack the time to listen and respond back to them or to do things with them, how close of a relationship is likely to develop?

Edited by Calm
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11 minutes ago, Calm said:

My issue is even if close relationships are possible with some of the kids, the children who don’t have it will feel the lack even more by observing the kids that do. 

I didn’t have a close relationship with my dad. Even before I was a teen, I wanted to do things my own way (just like he did, lol) and he wasn’t good at compromising or even understanding why I would want to (it is pretty clear he was autistic and while massively caring for others to the point that was the focus on his life, he had a very hard time putting himself in other people’s place and understanding their POV) and even more of an issue, I was pretty independent and he interacted with others by helping them, solving their problems, not by talking and then listening…except in the car on long drives and then he would throw out some controversy and pick your brain because he wanted to see how you thought (I am much like him in a lot of ways).  About the last 15 years of his life, my house became the overnight stop on the way to his actual visits.  It was very painful for me, a real void in my life, especially since even when he was there, he wasn’t really as he would be too tired from driving and had no interest in talking.  

It was and is very hard not to start thinking “what is wrong with me that he was never interested in me?”.  I don’t think he had favorites in the sense of caring for others more than me as if I ever came up with something I could convince him I needed him for, he was there; but that still didn’t remove the knowledge that he wasn’t interested in me as a person.  He didn’t make an effort to spend time with me.

I feel deeply, oh so deeply for any child that gets put in that position of lacking a relationship with their father for whatever reason.  I wonder how many children in polygamous marriages felt they were just a stop, a duty of their father on the way to what he really wanted to do, not because he didn’t love them, but because he lacked the time to show them he cared about them as individuals.  I wonder how many would have felt differently if the father had only that family to care for.

Thank you for sharing this. 

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30 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

We aren’t deities. I’ve read my ancestors journals. I’m sorry if you have 15 kids you can’t have the same kind of relationship that is possible if you have a couple. 

Good fathers are good fathers, I can’t speak to the impact of polygamy on kids, but my observation of monogamous families is that generally speaking, parents with 5+ kids build strong family bonds, both parent/child and among the children.  Of course results may vary, I have four siblings…I also had four fathers and four mothers, didn’t really have a relationship with any of the fathers except the last one who married my mother when I was in my mid 30s.  

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6 hours ago, let’s roll said:

Good fathers are good fathers, I can’t speak to the impact of polygamy on kids, but my observation of monogamous families is that generally speaking, parents with 5+ kids build strong family bonds, both parent/child and among the children.  Of course results may vary, I have four siblings…I also had four fathers and four mothers, didn’t really have a relationship with any of the fathers except the last one who married my mother when I was in my mid 30s.  

There was 7 years difference between myself and my next youngest sibling and then two more years later my last sibling was born.  I could see what happened with Dad and Mom’s ability to spend time with 3 kids vs 5.  Of course one of the big issues was there were babies in the house and they were older, but there was a significant difference in the types of activities we went on when the younger kids reached 6 years old which was when Dad started taking us camping from what my family did when I was six. There was much less traveling either as a couple (just Mom and Dad while we stayed with friends or grandparents) as well as a family or with the two oldest over all once we had 5 instead of 3 kids until the older kids had left and then traveling started up again, for example.  Logistics with larger numbers of kids can get difficult. Then there are expenses.

The time my dad and mom spent with us was even less when he started acting as “Dad” for my cousins who were feeling the absence of their father, who died of a brain tumor [added:  my cousins and me and my siblings were all adults by then, I think for them it was just having someone around that reminded them of their dad that meant so much]

There are always going to be children where relationships won’t come as easily as with one’s other children.  If a parent has too many other draws on their attention, including other children, they may not be able to take the time needed to figure out what needs that child has.

And let’s not forget a lot of polygamous families were not able to live with their father for the majority of the time, even when there wasn’t persecution, because the father was with the other family.

How would a child feel if their dad missed their birthday because they chose another child’s birthday to attend?  You can’t always make stuff up later on.

There are blessings and sacrifices that come with both small and large families.  My youngest wanted a younger sibling so badly, never got one obviously.  If my health had held up I would have loved to have four kids and fostered more…but I purposely married a man who would put his relationships with his kids at the top and he always has, sometimes even pissing me off, lol (going off for quality time rather than fixing something at home; I do feel bad we only managed two].

Plural marriage was a massive hardship for parents and children, from what I have studied and what I know of human nature.  It had its rewards as well.  My ggrandmother said she felt they really learned celestial love in her parents’ home when her mother took in one of her dad’s wives who became an invalid after a hard childbirth where she lost the child.  But then for her parents, the marriage was because of convenience as both had intended to marry when they came to Utah, but had been dumped.  Mutual friends set them up.  The wife was the one who pushed plural marriage and chose at least the second wife.

I wonder though if she felt the same by the fifth wife.  None of the fifth wife’s three children stayed in the Church iirc.

Edited by Calm
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31 minutes ago, Calm said:

Expressions of parental love can though.

And you can love a child but if you only spend short lengths of time here and there with them and lack the time to listen and respond back to them or to do things with them, how close of a relationship is likely to develop?

Ideally, as close as you can make it given the circumstances. Make the very most of those times, try to make them more frequent if you can, communicate in alternate ways such as letters, phone calls, or emails, trust that your partner (wife or husband) and other family members will assure the child of your devotion and fill the void for you, if you are on God’s errand exercise faith to ask for him to compensate in their lives, pray for charity - you for them and them for you, be sure they know the constancy of your love for them……your suggestions?

I am impressed by Brigham’s correspondences with his sons. I’m sure he had secretaries who helped, but he covers all the bases…personal, family, and friends news, health, Church events, business, politics, instruction, encouragement, admonition, expressions of love, and more.
I would like to see a collection of letters to his daughters.

I would like to know if other polygamist Church leaders had similar communication with their sons and daughters.

 

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14 minutes ago, Calm said:

There was 7 years difference between myself and my next youngest sibling and then two more years later my last sibling was born.  I could see what happened with Dad and Mom’s ability to spend time with 3 kids vs 5.  Of course one of the big issues was there were babies in the house and they were older, but there was a significant difference in the types of activities we went on when the younger kids reached 6 years old which was when Dad started taking us camping from what my family did when I was six. There was much less traveling either as a couple (just Mom and Dad while we stayed with friends or grandparents) as well as a family or with the two oldest over all once we had 5 instead of 3 kids until the older kids had left and then traveling started up again, for example.  Logistics with larger numbers of kids can get difficult. Then there are expenses.

The time my dad and mom spent with us was even less when he started acting as “Dad” for my cousins who were feeling the absence of their father, who died of a brain tumor.

There are always going to be children where relationships won’t come as easily as with one’s other children.  If a parent has too many other draws on their attention, including other children, they may not be able to take the time needed to figure out what needs that child has.

I have a granddaughter that it looks like she's going to be the only child unless my daughter and son in law can figure out a way. I've wondered if she's going to be lonesome for another sibling. But have seen only children do pretty good. 

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39 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I love that you still claim not to judge them 😂🤣

I’m not sure what you mean by that. It sounds like an insult. Do you know our family? Please elaborate. 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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6 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Well, keep some things in mind.  It is true that just about all the government and permanent migration to Utah was the saints.  But the Cali gold rush was entering it's fever-pitch heyday in the early 1850's, and SLC was a growing stop on the route west for folks looking to get rich.  There was absolutely a large industry that sprung up to serve (and take money from) the people just passing through.   People pulled $10 mil out of the California ground in 1849, $41m in 1850, $81m in 1951.  Then a slow levelling-off for the rest of the decade.  

Utterly fascinating: https://historytogo.utah.gov/sl-cutoff-california-trail/

 

Closely related tangent: I just got back from visiting Cripple Creek Colorado, which had its own gold boom 50 years after the Cali fever went down.  In it's heyday, apparently there were over a dozen "legitimate" brothels on the main drag, spanning 5 blocks.  Prostitution was never legal in Colorado, and yet somehow the govt managed to tax the trade pretty well.  The working girls were listed as “tenants” or “boarders”, who just happened to be required to go to the doctor once a month, where if they got a clean bill of health, they took their certificates to city hall, and they paid a “fine”.  It wasn’t legal so there was no licensing per se, but the govt could say “we fined her, she chose to stay.”    There was a city ordinance that states “The girls of Miner’s avenue are only allowed uptown to do their shopping Monday mornings between 8 and 11 AM”, (while all the good women and churchgoers were at home doing their chores), so the folks who lived there didn’t have to rub elbows with the “soiled doves”.  The lady who ran the most upscale joint in town died, and the people who turned out for the funeral exceeded the resident population of the entire county. 

Not a Mormon to be found anywhere in Cripple Creek back in those times, but I can see similar things happening in Utah, with the non-Saints running the businesses and hiding from, lying to, or maybe greasing the wheels of the local authorities who were all LDS.

Our family visited Cripple Creek several times (grandparents lived in Colorado). Beautiful place! Ma’s Restaurant was not so good, though.

I was offered a music teaching job in Cripple Creek after receiving my degree in 1970. One requirement for the job was to own a four-wheel drive vehicle.  I had an IH Scout. But then I realized the very dearth of marriage-age LDS ladies there that you mentioned, so I took a job in Murray, UT. From thence I met Sister Gui. I often wonder what my life would have been like had I gone to Cripple Creek.

One of my favorite Bluegrass songs…”Goin’ Up Cripple Creek” (not the Colorado one).



Goin’ up Cripple Creek goin’ in on the runGoing up Cripple Creek to have a little fun

Cripple Creek's wide and Cripple Creek's deepI'll wade ole Cripple Creek before I sleep.

Roll my breeches to my knees, wade ole Cripple Creek when I please. 

Goin’, goin’, gone!

Edited by Bernard Gui
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27 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Ideally, as close as you can make it given the circumstances. Make the very most of those times, try to make them more frequent if you can, communicate in alternate ways such as letters, phone calls, or emails, trust that your partner (wife or husband) and other family members will assure the child of your devotion and fill the void for you, if you are on God’s errand exercise faith to ask for him to compensate in their lives, pray for charity - you for them and them for you, be sure they know the constancy of your love for them……your suggestions?

I am impressed by Brigham’s correspondences with his sons. I’m sure he had secretaries who helped, but he covers all the bases…personal, family, and friends news, health, Church events, business, politics, instruction, encouragement, admonition, expressions of love, and more.
I would like to see a collection of letters to his daughters.

I would like to know if other polygamist Church leaders had similar communication with their sons and daughters.

 

Outside of marrying fewer wives and having less than 56 kids, not much.

Oh, and don’t have favorite wives or children you spend more time with, at least until they are adults and can make the choice to say not interested themselves.

I would prefer to hear from the kids how they felt.

Edited by Calm
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5 minutes ago, Calm said:

Outside of marrying fewer wives and having less than 56 kids, not much.

Oh, and don’t have favorite wives or children you spend more time with, at least until they are adults and can make the choice to say not interested themselves.

I would prefer to hear from the kids how they felt.

Thought of some more suggestions…don’t marry women you aren’t compatible with out of a sense of obligation or to take care of them and their children.  If that is necessary, become a foster grandparent.

Also, don’t look on children or wives as possessions where you want to have as many as possible to increase your glory.

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43 minutes ago, Calm said:

There was 7 years difference between myself and my next youngest sibling and then two more years later my last sibling was born.  I could see what happened with Dad and Mom’s ability to spend time with 3 kids vs 5.  Of course one of the big issues was there were babies in the house and they were older, but there was a significant difference in the types of activities we went on when the younger kids reached 6 years old which was when Dad started taking us camping from what my family did when I was six. There was much less traveling either as a couple (just Mom and Dad while we stayed with friends or grandparents) as well as a family or with the two oldest over all once we had 5 instead of 3 kids until the older kids had left and then traveling started up again, for example.  Logistics with larger numbers of kids can get difficult. Then there are expenses.

The time my dad and mom spent with us was even less when he started acting as “Dad” for my cousins who were feeling the absence of their father, who died of a brain tumor.

There are always going to be children where relationships won’t come as easily as with one’s other children.  If a parent has too many other draws on their attention, including other children, they may not be able to take the time needed to figure out what needs that child has.

And let’s not forget a lot of polygamous families were not able to live with their father for the majority of the time, even when there wasn’t persecution, because the father was with the other family.

How would a child feel if their dad missed their birthday because they chose another child’s birthday to attend?  You can’t always make stuff up later on.

There are blessings and sacrifices that come with both small and large families.  My youngest wanted a younger sibling so badly, never got one obviously.  If my health had held up I would have loved to have four kids and fostered more…but I purposely married a man who would put his relationships with his kids at the top and he always has, sometimes even pissing me off, lol (going off for quality time rather than fixing something at home).

Plural marriage was a massive hardship for parents and children, from what I have studied and what I know of human nature.  It had its rewards as well.  My gggrandmother said she felt they really learned celestial love in her parents’ home when her mother took in one of her dad’s wives who became an invalid after a hard childbirth where she lost the child.  But then for her parents, the marriage was because of convenience as both had intended to marry when they came to Utah, but had been dumped.  Mutual friends set them up.  The wife was the one who pushed plural marriage and chose at least the second wife.

I wonder though if she felt the same by the fifth wife.  None of the fifth wife’s three children stayed in the Church iirc.

Thank you for sharing.  As I said, I can’t speak to the impact of polygamy on children, so I apologize if my comment was off topic.

If your father took time to father his fatherless nieces and nephews when he had a house full of kids at home, he has my profound respect.

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On 9/29/2024 at 5:58 PM, Frank11 said:

 

1. I claim exactly what I said: "...but a close father-son/daughter relationship is only possible in rare cases."

2. No 

Would a son’s letter to Brigham sway your opinion? Would you agree that they had a very close relationship?

Sorrow is our heritage in this life," [wrote John W. Young upon receiving news of his brother Joseph's untimely death].

"How does poor Mother bear the sad loss? Her faith I know, therefore do not feel as though it would prove more than she can live through, but two (dear sister Alice) out of five, in eight short months, must wring a mother's heart. You, dear father, have other sons, and many to comfort you, but poor Mother so wrapt up in her children. Thank the Lord my brother Joseph died with the Gospel harness on his back. To die so is to give exaltation to the man, honor to God and a living joy to those who mourn and half the grief is taken away—we know he has gone to a far Better world. May we all meet there. . . . Please give my love to dear Mother and accept dear Father that portion which belongs to a Prophet of God and a dear father combined.

"It is with more than ordinary interest and affection that this letter is penned for your perusal. My confidence, esteem, and love, can be three times estimated; first by the undying and unbounded confidence I have in your mission as a Prophet of God bearing the Holy Priesthood; second, by the duty I owe to an able, faithful leader of a Great People; third, by the warmest affection that burns within my heart for a beloved father. In writing this letter there is but one object, that, to assure you the Gospel burns within my bosom.

“In my prolonged absence from home there has been no private motive of mine save as the business in which I am engaged compels me. So completely has my mind been on Utah, her interests, and our people, that I suppose I have never realized my absence as my friends at home do. Where one conversation has been upon business, many have been upon Religion, and it may not be that the Lord condemns me for my labor. 

“My protracted illness of last summer, although severe, was productive of good: it gave me time to think, to contemplate, to see my work, to contrast an occupation for lucre, with that for Eternal Lives, and Glory in God's Kingdom.

"The death of my dearly beloved brother and sister, Joseph A. and Alice, sank deeply, and I said, by the Lord's help, when I die, I will die too with full harness on, and not tear and wear my strength and life to shreds promoting any private enterprise.

“By thus speaking of my labors East, I do not wish to convey the idea that money has been my object, for the Lord knows it has not, but to build up the Country occupied by the Saints, and learn the commercial and material standing of the world and show them ours, and this, that I might be more useful at home.

"The light in which it presents itself is this: where is the place for a servant of the Lord to do the greatest work. The answer comes, at home, in Zion! My mind is fixed dear Father, and just as soon as I can complete my labors here, and discharge my duty to others honorably, command me then henceforth, and with God's help I will obey. . . . Hereafter it will be my delight to pass all the time alloted in your society and under the counsel and control of your great experience. . . .

“Sincerely praying God to give you health and happiness, and power to lead the people and defeat our enemies, and with love to all the Brethren I am, your affectionate son, John W. Young."

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Calm said:

Outside of marrying fewer wives and having less than 56 kids, not much.

Oh, and don’t have favorite wives or children you spend more time with, at least until they are adults and can make the choice to say not interested themselves.

I would prefer to hear from the kids how they felt.

Thought of some more suggestions…don’t marry women you aren’t compatible with out of a sense of obligation or to take care of them and their children.  If that is necessary, become a foster grandparent.

Also, don’t look on children or wives as possessions where you want to have as many as possible to increase your glory.

I was answering your questions about how busy parents can make sure their limited time with kids can be productive.

Sounds like you don’t like Brother Brigham? We can read the letters from his sons to see how they felt.

IMO polygamy had a serious purpose, it was engaged in by imperfect people struggling with very difficult circumstances, who were products of their times, it was hard for everyone, and when its purpose was completed, it was discontinued. 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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7 hours ago, california boy said:

Well actually it can get you excommunicated.  I got excommunicated because I refused to promise that I would never have a male partner and be in a relationship with him.  It is kinda leadership roulette what happens.

What leadership role you might have and how active you are is a factor in how it is handled.

Yeah but i'm not in California. I'm in the Netherlands and here they are relaxt with it so i don't expect excommunication. How lucky am i. 😉

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6 hours ago, The Nehor said:

It is not. It is included on the list for things that may require a membership council. Here is part of the list of situations that may require a membership council:

  • Adultery, fornication, same-sex relations, and all other sexual relations outside of a legal marriage between a man and a woman, including sexual encounters online or over the phone
  • Cohabitation, civil unions and partnerships, and same-sex marriage

It may happen. I have seen it happen. I have no idea what the circumstances are where you are though.

Here the cicumstances are really good. But yeah that's typical here in the Netherlands. They let you live your life. Even within the church they have that mentality. So ...i may call myself really lucky. 

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2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Jacob 2 is our LDS standard. 

“27 Wherefore, my brethren, hear me, and hearken to the word of the Lord: For there shall not any man among you have save it be one wife; and concubines he shall have none;

 

I'm not so good with those scriptures. Is this from the book of mormon. What does it say? 

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

“28 For I, the Lord God, delight in the chastity of women. And whoredoms are an abomination before me; thus saith the Lord of Hosts.

Something about woman and the law of chastity? 🤔

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

“29 Wherefore, this people shall keep my commandments, saith the Lord of Hosts, or cursed be the land for their sakes.

Does that mean that i shal be cursed?...because i'm together with my bf and no!...we do not abide the law of chastity as well on this moment. It's to dificult for me and him. I'm really aware that i made that promise to God a year and a half ago. But i can't help it. And my bf isn't from the church like i am.

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

“30 For if I will, saith the Lord of Hosts, raise up seed unto me, I will command my people; otherwise they shall hearken unto these things.”

You make me scared with those scriptures. I don't wanna end up in purgatory. That's my biggest nightmare. Or that i will suffer a lot for the rest of this life because God is punishing me. I have allready sufferd so much. I can't take anymore of that. 

But you know what it is. My boyfriend is the only one i got. For the rest i have no one anymore. 

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12 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

I'm not so good with those scriptures. Is this from the book of mormon. What does it say? 

Something about woman and the law of chastity? 🤔

Does that mean that i shal be cursed?...because i'm together with my bf and no!...we do not abide the law of chastity as well on this moment. It's to dificult for me and him. I'm really aware that i made that promise to God a year and a half ago. But i can't help it. And my bf isn't from the church like i am.

You make me scared with those scriptures. I don't wanna end up in purgatory. That's my biggest nightmare. Or that i will suffer a lot for the rest of this life because God is punishing me. I have allready sufferd so much. I can't take anymore of that. 

But you know what it is. My boyfriend is the only one i got. For the rest i have no one anymore. 

Dario, I hope you feel that, although not physically close, you have people here who care about you.

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