sunstoned Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 I teach technology at a large Utah based University, and I am well aware of the misogyny and gender discrimination that occurs nationally in the technology sector. These issues are greatly amplified in the state of Utah. They are religiously based, but they are not the teachings of Christ. They need to stop. A recent study concludes women who work in Utah's tech industry frequently miss out on career advancement due to gender norms that echo teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. https://www.axios.com/local/salt-lake-c ... stream=top 2 Link to comment
Pyreaux Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 The link is broken, but are you saying gender norms causes women choosing not to study tech or are studying tech but choosing not to make a career out it = misogyny and gender discrimination? I don't know, I just tend to question and get conflicting opinions blaming the free choices of women on misogynistic forces. Even in the most egalitarian places, thus most void of such forces, the gender differences, such as in choosing tech careers, increase. Women freely choose not to enter STEM fields, there is no true force stopping them. With your experience in teaching tech, what do you see happening? Link to comment
bluebell Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 22 minutes ago, Pyreaux said: The link is broken, but are you saying gender norms causes women choosing not to study tech or are studying tech but choosing not to make a career out it = misogyny and gender discrimination? I don't know, I just tend to question and get conflicting opinions blaming the free choices of women on misogynistic forces. Even in the most egalitarian places, thus most void of such forces, the gender differences, such as in choosing tech careers, increase. Women freely choose not to enter STEM fields, there is no true force stopping them. With your experience in teaching tech, what do you see happening? The blurb on the link seems to be saying that women who are actively working in tech are being passed over for promotions due to misogyny linked to sexist beliefs in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Link to comment
blackstrap Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 17 minutes ago, bluebell said: passed over for promotions I wonder if there is an element of men being gun-shy with females because of me2 and hence don't mentor or associate with women. That would also affect promotion , no ? 1 Link to comment
bluebell Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 1 hour ago, blackstrap said: I wonder if there is an element of men being gun-shy with females because of me2 and hence don't mentor or associate with women. That would also affect promotion , no ? If this phenomenon only started after the “me too” movement, then you might have a point. But it has existed for decades and decades. Long before men had to worry about sexual harassment accusations at all because it was legal. 4 Link to comment
Pyreaux Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 1 hour ago, bluebell said: The blurb on the link seems to be saying that women who are actively working in tech are being passed over for promotions due to misogyny linked to sexist beliefs in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Okay, but how are gender norms causing it? Is it woman A is the same as her male contemporaries in every way but her misogynistic boss irrationally overlooks her, or is she woman B who say, misses more work because some days she is expected to be taking care of certain family burdens, and a cold number crunching boss is inconsiderate of that because he's a man, and we are just calling him a misogynist? Link to comment
bluebell Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 1 hour ago, Pyreaux said: Okay, but how are gender norms causing it? Is it woman A is the same as her male contemporaries in every way but her misogynistic boss irrationally overlooks her, or is she woman B who say, misses more work because some days she is expected to be taking care of certain family burdens, and a cold number crunching boss is inconsiderate of that because he's a man, and we are just calling him a misogynist? I would assume it's woman A because that's the way the issue is framed. The woman B scenario wouldn't make any sense because that has nothing to do with the church. Link to comment
Calm Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 (edited) 6 hours ago, sunstoned said: that echo teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Echo some teachings of the Church (women are primarily meant to be mothers and at home as much as possible, husbands are responsible for providing the necessities of life, usually translated to mean the main or only provider/income source), but inequality in the work force of any kind is not a teaching. Edited September 11 by Calm 2 Link to comment
Calm Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 (edited) https://www.axios.com/2024/09/11/gender-wage-gap-rate-earnings# Quote The intrigue: Hulme found Mormonism's influence in workplaces exacerbated women's exclusion — and not just due to its history of discouraging mothers from working outside the home. The faith's pattern of segregating members by gender from an early age and urging married men not to socialize with women made it difficult for employees to gain mentorship and build relationships necessary for advancement, she wrote. How it works: Hulme interviewed 37 MBA-holding women and 57 of their coworkers, recruiters, teachers and classmates, focusing on employees at an unnamed "late-stage" startup in Utah with annual revenue over $1 billion. What they're saying: "My boss ... makes it really, really clear that he is Mormon and believes women's proper place is to stay home once they have children. It's super awkward, too, because my team is pretty much all women." — An employee who unsuccessfully sought a promotion while pregnant "We all know that leadership really doesn't think women should be working at all, let alone mothers." — An employee who said business metrics are sometimes left unadjusted for maternity leave, to make women appear less productive than they actually are "They said they didn't want to take me away from my 'primary responsibility.' They did not even let me decide; they decided for me." — An employee who said she was excluded from meetings and emails by men who quoted the church's "Family Proclamation" on gender roles "Even our bosses ... are scared to go to lunch with us or be alone with us in a public setting. They are worried about being seen with us. ... I have a high-profile role and am a top performer. But at the end of the day, that doesn't matter." — An employee who previously taught at what Hulme describes as a top business school Catch up quick: Several women in Utah's tech industry told Business Insider their employers were "Mormon boys' clubs," where they were held to unequal standards while male peers — friends with the bosses — were rewarded for underperformance. The other side: An employee at Ancestry.com, another Utah tech firm, told Business Insider multiple women had ascended to the C-suite. The company works closely with the church itself. Edited September 11 by Calm 2 Link to comment
Calm Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 (edited) 5 hours ago, blackstrap said: I wonder if there is an element of men being gun-shy with females because of me2 and hence don't mentor or associate with women. That would also affect promotion , no ? I would say among LDS at most metoo made some feel justified in their decisions to segregate at work. There may have been a few who went from treating women equally to withdrawing/segregating but I doubt it was statistically significant because of the long engrained ‘don’t be alone with any woman but your wife’ advice. Edited September 12 by Calm 1 Link to comment
bluebell Posted September 11 Share Posted September 11 2 minutes ago, Calm said: I would say among LDS at most metoo made some feel justified in their decisions to segregate at work. I tend that way as well. I think that some use it as a handy excuse. Link to comment
Raingirl Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 7 hours ago, sunstoned said: I teach technology at a large Utah based University, and I am well aware of the misogyny and gender discrimination that occurs nationally in the technology sector. These issues are greatly amplified in the state of Utah. They are religiously based, but they are not the teachings of Christ. They need to stop. A recent study concludes women who work in Utah's tech industry frequently miss out on career advancement due to gender norms that echo teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. https://www.axios.com/local/salt-lake-c ... stream=top I’m not surprised. I currently work at a public university, but previously worked at a Catholic university. Gender discrimination definitely existed, including female professors being paid less than male professors 2 Link to comment
Pyreaux Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 (edited) 6 hours ago, bluebell said: I would assume it's woman A because that's the way the issue is framed. The woman B scenario wouldn't make any sense because that has nothing to do with the church. Yes, I was questioning the entire presumption that Utahan bossmen are all making choices based on prejudice and not from maybe another LDS influenced angle, maybe a culture raised on masculine dispassionate church-style industrialism that may not have the feminine compassionate qualities that would make women more successful to get promoted... Okay, I don't know what I was thinking, I'm not the best scenario maker... All I wanted to communicate was; I'm just not a fan of guessing people's motives as to why Utahan men won't promote more women in Tech... and then blame the church, any given Utahan tech boss may not even be a local Utahan, a member, or an active member or a member who represents all church teachings on gender norms, however such teachings resulted in this. Edited September 12 by Pyreaux Link to comment
Tacenda Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 10 hours ago, Pyreaux said: Yes, I was questioning the entire presumption that Utahan bossmen are all making choices based on prejudice and not from maybe another LDS influenced angle, maybe a culture raised on masculine dispassionate church-style industrialism that may not have the feminine compassionate qualities that would make women more successful to get promoted... Okay, I don't know what I was thinking, I'm not the best scenario maker... All I wanted to communicate was; I'm just not a fan of guessing people's motives as to why Utahan men won't promote more women in Tech... and then blame the church, any given Utahan tech boss may not even be a local Utahan, a member, or an active member or a member who represents all church teachings on gender norms, however such teachings resulted in this. I'm wondering if it's a problem because I think in talks or lessons or ?, LDS men and women are told not to be seen alone with the opposite sex if they aren't your spouse. Could that have been the fall out? 2 Link to comment
Popular Post bluebell Posted September 12 Popular Post Share Posted September 12 (edited) 11 hours ago, Pyreaux said: Yes, I was questioning the entire presumption that Utahan bossmen are all making choices based on prejudice and not from maybe another LDS influenced angle, maybe a culture raised on masculine dispassionate church-style industrialism that may not have the feminine compassionate qualities that would make women more successful to get promoted... Okay, I don't know what I was thinking, I'm not the best scenario maker... All I wanted to communicate was; I'm just not a fan of guessing people's motives as to why Utahan men won't promote more women in Tech... and then blame the church, any given Utahan tech boss may not even be a local Utahan, a member, or an active member or a member who represents all church teachings on gender norms, however such teachings resulted in this. I get not wanting to assume the worst about people we don't know. But it does chafe that it's always the men that we don't want to assume the worst about, and never the women. It's pretty acceptable to assume that all of these (multiple) women we don't know are just being unfairly judgemental, are whiney, are actually just bad workers, or even are flat out lying, in the name of trying not to judge the men in the stories. Why are we willing to give the men the benefit of the doubt, but hardly ever willing to do the same for the women? Edited September 12 by bluebell 6 Link to comment
Tacenda Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 (edited) 30 minutes ago, bluebell said: I get not wanting to assume the worst about people we don't know. But it does chafe that it's always the men that we don't want to assume the worst about, and never the women. It's pretty acceptable to assume that all of these (multiple) women we don't know are just being unfairly judgemental, are whiney, are actually just bad workers, or even are flat out lying, in the name of trying not to judge the men in the stories. Why are we willing to give the men the benefit of the doubt, but hardly ever willing to do the same for the women? Strange, but it seems to happen all the time. Brain cramp but there's a word for it, help! haha ETA: maybe it's called double standard or something. Edited September 12 by Tacenda 2 Link to comment
CV75 Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 On 9/11/2024 at 12:43 PM, sunstoned said: I teach technology at a large Utah based University, and I am well aware of the misogyny and gender discrimination that occurs nationally in the technology sector. These issues are greatly amplified in the state of Utah. They are religiously based, but they are not the teachings of Christ. They need to stop. A recent study concludes women who work in Utah's tech industry frequently miss out on career advancement due to gender norms that echo teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. https://www.axios.com/local/salt-lake-c ... stream=top link doesn't work but when i googled it got this: A recent study concludes women who work in Utah's tech industry frequently miss out on career advancement due to gender norms that echo teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. State of play: Women here are often excluded from networking opportunities and consideration for promotion by male bosses, University of Chicago researcher Alyssa Calder Hulme concluded in her master's thesis, first reported by KUER. The big picture: Women in Utah's tech industry make 76.2% of what their male counterparts do, according to a separate analysis by Design Rush, a hub for marketing agencies. That's nearly 10% worse than the national pay gap in tech. In a survey released this year by the Utah Women & Leadership Project, about 27% said "religious influence" was a challenge for women and girls in the state. Some Utah companies have sought to go public but were rebuffed by Nasdaq because their leadership was all white and male, Business Insider reported in 2023. ICYMI: Utah's software developer salaries are exceptionally high and growing fast The intrigue: Hulme found Mormonism's influence in workplaces exacerbated women's exclusion — and not just due to its history of discouraging mothers from working outside the home. The faith's pattern of segregating members by gender from an early age and urging married men not to socialize with women made it difficult for employees to gain mentorship and build relationships necessary for advancement, she wrote. How it works: Hulme interviewed 37 MBA-holding women and 57 of their coworkers, recruiters, teachers and classmates, focusing on employees at an unnamed "late-stage" startup in Utah with annual revenue over $1 billion. What they're saying: "My boss ... makes it really, really clear that he is Mormon and believes women's proper place is to stay home once they have children. It's super awkward, too, because my team is pretty much all women." — An employee who unsuccessfully sought a promotion while pregnant "We all know that leadership really doesn't think women should be working at all, let alone mothers." — An employee who said business metrics are sometimes left unadjusted for maternity leave, to make women appear less productive than they actually are "They said they didn't want to take me away from my 'primary responsibility.' They did not even let me decide; they decided for me." — An employee who said she was excluded from meetings and emails by men who quoted the church's "Family Proclamation" on gender roles "Even our bosses ... are scared to go to lunch with us or be alone with us in a public setting. They are worried about being seen with us. ... I have a high-profile role and am a top performer. But at the end of the day, that doesn't matter." — An employee who previously taught at what Hulme describes as a top business school Catch up quick: Several women in Utah's tech industry told Business Insider their employers were "Mormon boys' clubs," where they were held to unequal standards while male peers — friends with the bosses — were rewarded for underperformance. The other side: An employee at Ancestry.com, another Utah tech firm, told Business Insider multiple women had ascended to the C-suite. The company works closely with the church itself. Silicon Slopes, a nonprofit that represents the tech industry, did not respond to Axios' request for comment. Link to comment
BlueDreams Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 23 hours ago, Calm said: https://www.axios.com/2024/09/11/gender-wage-gap-rate-earnings# I wonder how this compares to other fields of work. I know certain jobs tend to attract differing people who tend to hold more similar views or outlooks. So it would be interesting to compare it to other fields. 1 Link to comment
CV75 Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 On 9/11/2024 at 12:43 PM, sunstoned said: I teach technology at a large Utah based University, and I am well aware of the misogyny and gender discrimination that occurs nationally in the technology sector. These issues are greatly amplified in the state of Utah. They are religiously based, but they are not the teachings of Christ. They need to stop. A recent study concludes women who work in Utah's tech industry frequently miss out on career advancement due to gender norms that echo teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. https://www.axios.com/local/salt-lake-c ... stream=top It is interesting that the increase in the number of women in the Utah tech industry is increasing as the percentage of LDS members is decreasing in Utah. Given that the “nerdiness” factor drives gender discrimination in the tech industry: Are men more “Highly-Intelligent-But-Socially-Handicapped” than women in the industry? Why does the Utah social environment (evidently the role of religion in history, identity, politics, economy, etc.) influence the behavior of a nerdy man more than a nerdy woman -- or does it? Why is the number of women working in the Utah companies increasing while the % of Mormons (I use that term in the historical sense) in the State is decreasing -- are most of the secularly-socialized people moving into the State women? Could it be that a “nerd” -- I use that term respectfully -- is less able to adopt and exemplify the more nuanced social attitudes of the broader community, but instead a more distilled, developmentally immature and less sophisticated interpretation, such as chauvinism (in this instance, by the male nerds) and subservience (by the female nerds)? Given that most of the players of both both sexes are nerds, would that exacerbate the negative interpersonal gender dynamics, contributing to the inequities and discrimination? Link to comment
Calm Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 (edited) 1 hour ago, CV75 said: and subservience (by the female nerds) Female nerds are not typically subservient in my experience. Realistic perhaps. They are already bucking the trends, though not as much now as when I was a nerd thankfully. Being reserved or introverted may be misinterpreted as subservient, but only until there’s a reason to make the difference clear (if it’s less hassle for someone else to assume that, no fuss may be made, but if that assumption impacts treatment, chances are a female nerd will speak up, imo, maybe not too effectively, lol, and if they won’t speak up, they will look for ways to exit the problem). Quote Given that most of the players of both both sexes are nerds, Most what? Edited September 12 by Calm 2 Link to comment
CV75 Posted September 13 Share Posted September 13 (edited) 13 hours ago, Calm said: Female nerds are not typically subservient in my experience. Realistic perhaps. They are already bucking the trends, though not as much now as when I was a nerd thankfully. Being reserved or introverted may be misinterpreted as subservient, but only until there’s a reason to make the difference clear (if it’s less hassle for someone else to assume that, no fuss may be made, but if that assumption impacts treatment, chances are a female nerd will speak up, imo, maybe not too effectively, lol, and if they won’t speak up, they will look for ways to exit the problem). Most what? I think the developmentally immature and less sophisticated interpretation by a female nerd in a culture much influenced by "male priesthood organization" would be to assume a more subservient display and behavior in the workplace, no matter how they actually think or feel -- they are acting and imitating (just as the male nerds) to fit in and most likely just to survive economically and psychically. This plays into the amplified dynamic covered in the thesis. My use of "players" refers to the individuals (whether female, male, bosses, employees, etc.) comprising the discriminatory dynamic being studied. At some point the displays and behavior stop working for those involved as public discourse shines a light on what is going on. I think one characteristic of a nerd is that they do not realize they are bucking a trend but rather finding fulfillment in a particular natural interest. Of course nerdiness falls along a broad spectrum so I am generalizing. Edited September 13 by CV75 Link to comment
CV75 Posted September 13 Share Posted September 13 Not to detract from my original questions, because I would benefit from hearing an insider viewpoint, but before I forget: The article/thesis makes brief mention of Ancestry.com, seemingly as an anecdotal exception to data from the other organizations to point out that women hold executive roles while the company works closely with the Church. What is the connection between a closer association with the Church and less gender discrimination? Link to comment
bluebell Posted September 13 Share Posted September 13 2 hours ago, CV75 said: Not to detract from my original questions, because I would benefit from hearing an insider viewpoint, but before I forget: The article/thesis makes brief mention of Ancestry.com, seemingly as an anecdotal exception to data from the other organizations to point out that women hold executive roles while the company works closely with the Church. What is the connection between a closer association with the Church and less gender discrimination? If I had to guess I would say that it was likely either a result of very specific leadership decisions in that company to buck the trend (decisions the other companies are not making), that actual church members are not that involved in the running of that business, or people view family history and genealogy work as more of a female centric occupation and so are subconsciously more comfortable with them in leadership positions. 1 Link to comment
Calm Posted September 13 Share Posted September 13 (edited) 5 hours ago, CV75 said: think the developmentally immature and less sophisticated interpretation by a female nerd I think this assumption is faulty…I don’t see it as useful to assume inner thought processes are more or less immature or sophisticated when you don’t know what they are. External behaviour can be triggered by a variety of thought processes. And something might look “immature” to another when it’s really mature thinking but is based on limited info, for example. Edited September 13 by Calm Link to comment
CV75 Posted September 13 Share Posted September 13 29 minutes ago, Calm said: I think this assumption is faulty…I don’t see it as useful to assume inner thought processes are more or less immature or sophisticated when you don’t know what they are. External behaviour can be triggered by a variety of thought processes. And something might look “immature” to another when it’s really mature thinking but is based on limited info, for example. I may not know what they are, but I know how they appear. I am trying to convey that their inner thought processes produce/display behaviors and interactions that are socially less adept / more inept than the non-nerds with whom they interact enough to make reasonable assessments reported in academic publications. I chose to use the terms "developmentally immature and less sophisticated," but there are certainly better ways to describe it. Link to comment
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