Gods Plan For Us

[brownbear]

People often refer to significant events in their lives as part of God’s plan. But does this mean these events are directly orchestrated by God, or that they align with the broader plan of salvation? Personally, I’ve never been comfortable attributing every occurrence in life to divine intervention.

For instance, if someone loses their job due to another person’s decisions, is that part of God’s plan? It could simply be the result of poor financial management or unfavorable market conditions. Similarly, if someone is diagnosed with cancer, is that part of the plan? Or is it perhaps just a consequence of biology and genetics?

I believe it’s essential to stay in communion with God, to rely on Him, and to follow the inspiration we receive. However, I don’t think “the plan” accounts for every single step we take. Is it possible? Certainly. But I believe that God’s involvement is more pronounced in major life decisions—like marriage, education, and other critical moments where He may choose to intervene. I also believe that God can send His Spirit to comfort us and that He is always aware of our circumstances.

The idea of an interventionist God suggests that divine involvement could occur at every stage of our lives. However, I don’t believe that God’s plan dictates every minor detail. I could be mistaken, but I view God more in line with how Joseph Smith described leading the Saints: 

As Joseph Smith famously said, “I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves” (John Taylor, “The Organization of the Church,” Millennial Star, 15 November 1851, 339).

[ZealouslyStriving]

Chapter 2: Tragedy or Destiny?

 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-spencer-w-kimball/chapter-2?lang=eng

 

[Dario_M]

Good question. What is Gods plan for us all. 💫

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, brownbear said:

People often refer to significant events in their lives as part of God’s plan. But does this mean these events are directly orchestrated by God, or that they align with the broader plan of salvation? Personally, I’ve never been comfortable attributing every occurrence in life to divine intervention.

For instance, if someone loses their job due to another person’s decisions, is that part of God’s plan? It could simply be the result of poor financial management or unfavorable market conditions. Similarly, if someone is diagnosed with cancer, is that part of the plan? Or is it perhaps just a consequence of biology and genetics?

I believe it’s essential to stay in communion with God, to rely on Him, and to follow the inspiration we receive. However, I don’t think “the plan” accounts for every single step we take. Is it possible? Certainly. But I believe that God’s involvement is more pronounced in major life decisions—like marriage, education, and other critical moments where He may choose to intervene. I also believe that God can send His Spirit to comfort us and that He is always aware of our circumstances.

The idea of an interventionist God suggests that divine involvement could occur at every stage of our lives. However, I don’t believe that God’s plan dictates every minor detail. I could be mistaken, but I view God more in line with how Joseph Smith described leading the Saints: 

As Joseph Smith famously said, “I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves” (John Taylor, “The Organization of the Church,” Millennial Star, 15 November 1851, 339).

Interesting. 

In @MustardSeed's thread about crying, @smac97 recounts his experience of being led to a place where he met his future wife, that if there hadn't been what seemed to be divine intervention he would never have met her. I chimed in with one of my own experiences along the same line. At the time in these occurrences it seemed like God's intervention was quite subtle, and not overt at all. Yet the result proved significant. I believe there is a verse in the D&C that describes how a huge ship is directed by a relatively small rudder. 

On the other hand, I recall someone saying very dramatically "Don't give the Lord credit for what the Lord doesn't want credit at all." I think it was one of the instructors in the Language Training Mission (the forerunner of the MTC in Provo). Some things are not the result of the Lord's intervention. He Himself said:

"For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward. Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness; For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward." (D&C 58:26-28)

The Lord will direct where He needs to direct, but the Lord wants us to exercise our own righteous wills.

[bluebell]

I'm not completely decided but I lean toward Him being fairly active, because that is what my interpretation of my personal experiences have been.  I also think that His activity in our lives changes based on our age, our need, and our personal choices.

Overall though, what I find most interesting on the topic is that when I listen to other active members (which is only significant in that it means they are basically coming at the topic from the same starting place) talk about the role of God in their lives, especially after having gone through a significant trial, they've often come to different conclusions. Some people believe that God was involved in most of the outcomes, some end up believing He was involved in a few of the outcomes, and others end up with the opinion that there was basically no involvement or "planning" on God's part in what they went through.

That makes me think that maybe God's involvement in our lives changes depending on the situation or the trial.  Or, maybe He's always the same but our personal ability to recognize Him changes. Or, maybe we are seeing His presence in our lives through the filter of "what makes this trial the easiest to get through and retain my faith" and sometimes (or some people) need Him to be intimately involved and other people don't in order to maintain belief and trust in Him.

Maybe sometimes a God that isn't much involved in our lives is the easiest God to deal with and continue to have faith in when something tragic happens.  Maybe for others, they need the opposite kind of God and so we interpret the events in our lives with Him in a much more active, everyday, role.  

If the above is true does that mean that our need dictates His level of interaction in our lives, or does His interaction stay the same but our ability to perceive it change?  I really don't know.

[MustardSeed]

I am one who certainly does not believe in God’s involvement directly. I think goodness and evil generally impact as forces, but not the way we often hear at church.

To my knowledge, there is no doctrine that indicates any “meant to be” as truth. It leaves me actually very unsettled to consider otherwise.

[MrShorty]

The problem of evil is very real. I find that, the more I believe in a God who intervenes, the more difficult the problem of evil becomes.

I hope that this is one of the things that gets better understood through proving contraries. I look back on my own life, and I think I see places where God intervened. For each time that God intervenes in my life, I can see or imagine someone whose experience is the exact opposite. I think on that time driving these mountain highways of Utah when I narrowly avoided a head-on collision. I can see things that look like God preventing tragedy that day. But I am also acutely aware of all those people also driving these mountain highways who did not avoid the collision and who were maimed or killed in the accident. I just can't comfortably reconcile the idea that God would save me from harm while not saving others. I cannot reconcile the idea that God is intervening to help people find lost car keys while allowing others to die in Nazi gas chambers or from other horrendous things.

@ZealouslyStriving: That lesson from Pres. Kimball seems to be a pretty typical "soul growth" theodicy. As theodicies go, I am inclined to think that a soul growth theodicy is the most compelling theodicy, but it still seems so unsatisfying. Some people (like myself) avoid all of the hardest trials, while others' trials completely overwhelm them and eventually turn them against God. Maybe it all gets redeemed eventually in the next life, but that can be small comfort while trying to reconcile the problem of evil in the here and now.

At the end of the day, as a believer, I don't know what final answer to give other than to trust that God really can redeem it all. Some days, it isn't easy to maintain that faith.

[CV75]

6 hours ago, brownbear said:

People often refer to significant events in their lives as part of God’s plan. But does this mean these events are directly orchestrated by God, or that they align with the broader plan of salvation? Personally, I’ve never been comfortable attributing every occurrence in life to divine intervention.

For instance, if someone loses their job due to another person’s decisions, is that part of God’s plan? It could simply be the result of poor financial management or unfavorable market conditions. Similarly, if someone is diagnosed with cancer, is that part of the plan? Or is it perhaps just a consequence of biology and genetics?

I believe it’s essential to stay in communion with God, to rely on Him, and to follow the inspiration we receive. However, I don’t think “the plan” accounts for every single step we take. Is it possible? Certainly. But I believe that God’s involvement is more pronounced in major life decisions—like marriage, education, and other critical moments where He may choose to intervene. I also believe that God can send His Spirit to comfort us and that He is always aware of our circumstances.

The idea of an interventionist God suggests that divine involvement could occur at every stage of our lives. However, I don’t believe that God’s plan dictates every minor detail. I could be mistaken, but I view God more in line with how Joseph Smith described leading the Saints: 

As Joseph Smith famously said, “I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves” (John Taylor, “The Organization of the Church,” Millennial Star, 15 November 1851, 339).

As you point out, there are individual plans within the overall plan. God can’t help that because that is His work and glory, loving each of us personally and collectively. Patriarchal blessings are a good example that, in my opinion.

The execution of the plan(s) likewise; we are free to choose according to the light we have. The timing of both the plan(s) and execution seems to be entirely up to Him: Creation, when we are born and the circumstances (which have much to do with our part in the execution of the plan), the Gospel Dispensations, the Meridian of Time, the Restoration, the Second Coming, when people are resurrected and judged, whether, when and how to answer prayers and help us with the specifics of our lives, etc.

ETA: I think as we develop our covenant relationship with Him, we see His individual and personal plan(s) more clearly and at the same time He intervenes less because He knows we have learned to choose correctly and/or quickly repent and restore the correct choice when we mistake. I think He intervenes when we don't know any better and we may not recognize or attribute His involvement to get us on track until much later. The track may not even be a plan per se but one of many blessings or choices He makes available to us. He intervenes at our request when we ask not amiss, or ask nothing that is contrary to His will.

Edited August 24 by CV75

[Nofear]

While I can't say what is men's foibles, randomness of nature, or divine actions what I can say it that when we turn to the Lord, all things can work together for our good. It may not be the "best" good, but God can always arrange things that the net benefits outweigh the net harms.

[manol]

2 hours ago, Nofear said:

While I can't say what is men's foibles, randomness of nature, or divine actions what I can say it that when we turn to the Lord, all things can work together for our good. It may not be the "best" good, but God can always arrange things that the net benefits outweigh the net harms.

Imo among the more potent modern-day sources of information on this topic are the testimonials of near-death experiencers who remember seeing the plans they made pre-birth. While each account is unique and each person's perspective is unique, ime reading or listening to a number of such accounts starts to paint a picture that's consistent with “all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.”

Below is a link to a compilation of near-death experiencers describing their memories of planning their Earth lives. Some of the concepts mentioned may be outside your comfort zone (some of them are outside of mine), but imo they have a uniquely uplifting new perspective to teach us. Imo near-death experience accounts fall into the category of “all that God does now reveal”, as they were not available to previous generations, at least not in any significant quantity.

Briefly, if I understand correctly, whether an experience is something we planned or something God planned or something that just happened, pretty much everything down here is an opportunity for progress, with some experiences obviously being more intense opportunities than others.  Cued up to one of the more explanatory accounts so you don't have to watch them all, that segment lasts for a little under five minutes:

 

 

Edited August 24 by manol

[JLHPROF]

I can point to times in my life when God 100% changed the course of my life.

But at the same time my life has been virtually stagnant for 7 years now with no direction in sight.

I think God does have a plan for us.  Sometimes.  When it pleases him to intervene.  But not most of the time.

[blackstrap]

I think God delegates .

[Nofear]

15 hours ago, manol said:

Imo among the more potent modern-day sources of information on this topic are the testimonials of near-death experiencers who remember seeing the plans they made pre-birth.

We certainly had lessons and instructions preparatory to our coming to mortality. Perhaps one of those classes was "plans for your life". Some seeing how some of there brothers and sisters came out of the class saying, "ooh, I chose to be a quadriplegic because that'll help me" or "I'm going to have horribly abusive parents" or other recounts of struggles they would face that would be for their benefit. I can see a scenario where many may have chosen to skip that class preferring to remain in ignorance.

[CV75]

16 hours ago, manol said:

Imo among the more potent modern-day sources of information on this topic are the testimonials of near-death experiencers who remember seeing the plans they made pre-birth. While each account is unique and each person's perspective is unique, ime reading or listening to a number of such accounts starts to paint a picture that's consistent with “all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.”

Below is a link to a compilation of near-death experiencers describing their memories of planning their Earth lives. Some of the concepts mentioned may be outside your comfort zone (some of them are outside of mine), but imo they have a uniquely uplifting new perspective to teach us. Imo near-death experience accounts fall into the category of “all that God does now reveal”, as they were not available to previous generations, at least not in any significant quantity.

Briefly, if I understand correctly, whether an experience is something we planned or something God planned or something that just happened, pretty much everything down here is an opportunity for progress, with some experiences obviously being more intense opportunities than others.  Cued up to one of the more explanatory accounts so you don't have to watch them all, that segment lasts for a little under five minutes:

 

 

I had a thought about NDEs the other day: their universal nature speaks to the common light of Christ available to us all, and we perceive it through our filters even after death, and retrieve the  filtered experience upon our return; some pleasant and some not; some aligning with the doctrines of the Restored Gospel and some not.

This might explain the various reactions of those who do not return but pass into the spirit world (e.g., Alma 39).

Edited August 25 by CV75

[Tacenda]

On 8/24/2024 at 9:14 AM, bluebell said:

I'm not completely decided but I lean toward Him being fairly active, because that is what my interpretation of my personal experiences have been.  I also think that His activity in our lives changes based on our age, our need, and our personal choices.

Overall though, what I find most interesting on the topic is that when I listen to other active members (which is only significant in that it means they are basically coming at the topic from the same starting place) talk about the role of God in their lives, especially after having gone through a significant trial, they've often come to different conclusions. Some people believe that God was involved in most of the outcomes, some end up believing He was involved in a few of the outcomes, and others end up with the opinion that there was basically no involvement or "planning" on God's part in what they went through.

That makes me think that maybe God's involvement in our lives changes depending on the situation or the trial.  Or, maybe He's always the same but our personal ability to recognize Him changes. Or, maybe we are seeing His presence in our lives through the filter of "what makes this trial the easiest to get through and retain my faith" and sometimes (or some people) need Him to be intimately involved and other people don't in order to maintain belief and trust in Him.

Maybe sometimes a God that isn't much involved in our lives is the easiest God to deal with and continue to have faith in when something tragic happens.  Maybe for others, they need the opposite kind of God and so we interpret the events in our lives with Him in a much more active, everyday, role.  

If the above is true does that mean that our need dictates His level of interaction in our lives, or does His interaction stay the same but our ability to perceive it change?  I really don't know.

My siblings got together recently because my sisters live out of state and we made it a little family reunion at a park with them. Well, while cleaning up and the sun going down and it becoming dark, my two sisters and a nephew were chatting as we were about to leave. I'd turned around and started toward my vehicle with the last of my stuff and all the sudden I heard a bunch of screaming. I turned around and hurried over to find what was the matter. My sister said they saw a bright shooting star, and right before that my sister was telling of when she saw a shooting star right after my dad had passed from a sudden heart attack several years back and as soon as she said that another very bright shooting star came over them! I felt sad that I had missed it, and wished I hadn't turned around and walked off, dang it! But it gave me chills and them chills. This nephew was very close to his grandpa, my dad. Even wrote a beautiful poem when he had died. Well, I'm thinking when is it my turn? But glad they got to see that shooting star at just the right moment. So hopefully God and His angels are up there looking upon us and granting us these little/big signs.

[bluebell]

59 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

My siblings got together recently because my sisters live out of state and we made it a little family reunion at a park with them. Well, while cleaning up and the sun going down and it becoming dark, my two sisters and a nephew were chatting as we were about to leave. I'd turned around and started toward my vehicle with the last of my stuff and all the sudden I heard a bunch of screaming. I turned around and hurried over to find what was the matter. My sister said they saw a bright shooting star, and right before that my sister was telling of when she saw a shooting star right after my dad had passed from a sudden heart attack several years back and as soon as she said that another very bright shooting star came over them! I felt sad that I had missed it, and wished I hadn't turned around and walked off, dang it! But it gave me chills and them chills. This nephew was very close to his grandpa, my dad. Even wrote a beautiful poem when he had died. Well, I'm thinking when is it my turn? But glad they got to see that shooting star at just the right moment. So hopefully God and His angels are up there looking upon us and granting us these little/big signs.

Aw, I would’ve been sad I missed that too! I hope God and his angels are up there, looking upon us and granting us these little and big signs too.