Being a Mormon without Believing in a Historical Book of Mormon, Part 1

[OGHoosier]

3 hours ago, Nevo said:

I'll give you goat-hair sails, but local wood for the structural elements? I thought we agreed that there wasn't any suitable wood on hand? Unless you want to say that reeds (grass) = "timbers of curious workmanship."

I apologize, I seem to have skipped ahead. Semaan's article is somewhat at odds with itself. She goes through various species and lists their applications. Several species native to Dhofar are listed as being serviceable in the internal structure of ships in several places. On page 421 she lists several species of trees native to Dhofar, including Acacia nilotica, as being of service in making ship superstructures. She specifically praises their shock resistance and durability. Modern traditional dhow builders use native wood for the structure, the teak is for the hull. That role, in Omani Magan boats playing the Indian Ocean 3000 years ago, was filled by packed reed bales covered in layers of hydrophobic bitumen. 

[CV75]

9 hours ago, Nevo said:

I'll give you goat-hair sails, but local wood for the structural elements? I thought we agreed that there wasn't any suitable wood on hand? Unless you want to say that reeds (grass) = "timbers of curious workmanship."

"Timber" in archaic terms can refer to the main beams of a fabric or even a drum, and can be made from fibers gathered from grasses, shrubs, etc. This approach would render quite the curious product that could be constructed using copper tools (there was a bronze age mine in Wadi Al Helo, and in Oman many suitable metallic ores for toolmaking can be found in the Hajar Mountains that run along the coast: https://www.trade.gov/country-commercial-guides/oman-mining-and-minerals#:~:text=Oman's mountains host intact and,silver%2C vanadium%2C and zinc.). These curious timbers may have even incorporated metal components.

[Bernard Gui]

On 7/31/2024 at 1:06 AM, california boy said:

I have seen people make pretty realistic replicas of what the BoM was supposed to look like. Why do you think Joseph Smith could not have done something similar?

Any suggestions on the materials he used?

[Bernard Gui]

On 7/31/2024 at 10:21 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

And you know the haters of his time would've latched on to his metal working prowess if it existed, as evidence he made th plates himself.

Of course we all know that coopers made barrels out of wood. Becoming a good cooper required considerable training. 

[Zosimus]

12 hours ago, mbh26 said:

Florida and it's poor soil, where we heartlanders believe Lehi landed

An east coast landing is unlikely. If Lehi landed in Florida it would have been far easier to go west from one of the many ports of the Mediterranean instead of wandering south for nine years in the wilderness of the Arabian Peninsula to build a boat in a place where there were no materials to sail more than half way around the world across either 1. the largest ocean or 2.all the way around Africa to get back to where they started from where the Mediterranean meets the Atlantic.

I understand that it is said that God gave Nephi the technology and the training to do the impossible in Bountiful, but I can't fathom why the super inefficient path from Oman to Florida instead of just crossing the Atlantic via the Mediterranean directly.

12 hours ago, mbh26 said:

I don't think there's enough evidence or that much better of a theory on Book of Mormon geography that we should have ever rejected the Heartland model. 

The Heartland model has so many problems that even most Mormons don't adopt it. It has been rejected because it simply doesn't fit the geography in the Book of Mormon. There's no way to make it fit without ignoring nearly every geographical reference in the text.

Dr. Fleming has an interesting take on Book of Mormon geography, he links to it in the article posted in the OP. He argues Joseph was following Humboldt's descriptions of South and Central America, something similar to the discussion here, IMO a Humboldt-inspired geography makes the most sense given that Charles Anthon's claim that the Book of Mormon characters transcript he witnessed ended with a rude sketch of Humboldt's Mexican zodiac.

 

[california boy]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Any suggestions on the materials he used?

The ones I have seen made were done with copper 

[the narrator]

I attended Fleming's Sunstone presentation Saturday morning, and I must say that (with at least the quotes he provided) his linking the revelations of Jane Leade to Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon is the strongest and clearest influence I have ever seen.

[Calm]

Did he speak on any recent findings or was it more just pulling past work together?  I am seeing this from 2012.  I am wondering if so on target, why she hasn’t been discussed more (meaning to imply I am assuming he has some new, impressive stuff I would like to know about…)

https://juvenileinstructor.org/jane-lead-and-the-restoration-or-in-praise-our-heavenly-mother/

[Calm]

For anyone who has some time to spare (it’s 320 pages)…Jane Lead:

https://research.gold.ac.uk/id/eprint/18583/1/'Jane Lead and legacy'.pdf

[Calm]

Part of Fleming’s dissertation:

https://juvenileinstructor.org/heavenly-mother/

A response by Robert Boylan to previous interest in Lead…does Fleming demonstrate contact by anyone involved in the production of the BoM with the writings or ideas of Lead?

https://scripturalmormonism.blogspot.com/2022/06/philip-lockley-on-19th-century-lds.html

Quote

 

Philip Lockley on 19th-century LDS Appeals to the works of Jane Lead

In the case of the Mormons—the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints—a uniquely exhaustive research project has recently explored the cultural environment of the tradition’s origins between 1820 and 1850, and specially identified numerous Mormon theological themes in Jane Lead’s prophecies—as they appear at least in the same 1830 re-print also in the Shakers’ possession. Researchers have identified themes occurring in both Lead’s writings and Joseph Smith Jr’s theology as general (innocuous, even) as the ‘City of Zion’, ‘New Jerusalem’, and ‘preparation of the earth and preceding events [to the Second Coming]’. Significant flaws in the methodology of this project leaves its utility for tracking the influence of one prophetic tradition on another severely limited. No account was taken, for instance, as to whether any early Mormons were ever anywhere near the books in question (The copy of Lead’s Divine revelations and prophecies [1830] held at the Harold B. Lee Library, Brigham Young University, Utah, was only purchased in 1988). Nineteenth-century Mormons undoubtedly read Jane Lead, and were struck by the parallels between her visions and their own beliefs. However, the earliest evidence for this occurs in Britain in February 1858. Passages from an 1807 German edition of Lead’s Revelation of Revelations, encountered in either Britain or Europe, were translated back into English for the Mormon missionary newspaper, The Millennial Star (‘Extracts from the Revelations of Jane Leade,’ Millennial Star 20, no. 8 [20 February 1858], pp. 124-25. The original was: Jane Lead, Offenbarungen der Jane Leade, die letzten Zeiten betreffend: nebst Anmerkungen und einer Lebensberschreibung dieser Englaenderin [Stasburg: J.H. Silbermann, 1807]). The editor, Samuel Richards, enthused on the way Lead’s revelations were ‘pointed or expressive of the Latter-day Work’, so demonstrating how ‘those who are spiritually minded, according to the light and advantages they have, can seek after God and learn his ways’, even before the inspiration of ‘the Prophet Joseph’ (‘Extracts from the Revelations of Jane Leade,’ Millennial Star 20, no. 8 [20 February 1858], pp. 124-25). All further Mormon interest in Jane Lead dates well after this. (Philip Lockley, “Jane Lead’s Prophetic Afterlife in the Nineteenth-Century English Atlantic,” in Jane Lead and Her Transnational Legacy, ed. Ariel Hessayon [Christianities in the Trans-Atlantic World, 1500-1800; London: Palgrave Macmillan, 2016], 243-44)

 

EXTRACTS FROM THE REVEALTIONS OF JANE LEADE.

 

(Translated from the German Edition, 1807.)

 

It was shown unto me that the different existing modes of worship are nothing more than Babylonian fantasies, and that an angel is commissioned form the Chief Shepherd to make known that all man-made systems of religion must pass away, like a shadow, before the brightness of a day when nothing but the power of God and the Lamb will endure.

 

The time is not yet come, but it is not so very far off, when the everlasting Gospel will break forth with power that nothing can withstand; and nothing that is from men will be mixed with it; for it is only those that are like children that will confide therein.

 

To preach this, an agency will come that will bring back all which was lost in the first Adam. How great the blessing for those that first lay their hands to the foundation of the spotless Church; and how greater still for that man who is chosen from his mother's womb to be such a remarkable instrument in the hand of God. He will raise a mighty standard to which the dove-like spirits will flee for shelter. The trumpet of the Priesthood will be blown, and the children of bondage will hear the call to come beneath the banner of our God.

 

All from Abraham's seed groan in slavery; but the Most High will raise up a Prophet that will bring His people form Babylonian witchcraft, and from the tyranny of the Prince of Darkness.

 

Like as Moses, Joshua, and Aaron were anointed, as types, to lead the way to the rest of the promised land, even so must this Chieftain be raised up as a terror to unbelievers and a joy to those who are led back to Mount Zion.

 

The Priesthood after the order of Melchizedek shall be brought forth, that the way of the Holy of Holies may be made known. The sign of these Priests will be the Urim and Thummim, and they

 

will have a right to hold communion with God. And thus will man come back to the state and condition that he had before the material world existed, so that he will again have a place above the angels; for to which of them hath God said "Thou art my son."

 

THE GATHERING.

 

I saw an Ark float through the air, as that of Noah did in ancient times over the water; but from this Ark came a voice saying, "Here is a refuge from the curses that will come like another deluge upon the earth." Those that had a lofty degree of faith went in, and endeavoured to bring others therein also.

 

I was told this Ark was the Church of the gathering from all people; and it floated here and there, and the voice of a mighty angel came therefrom, saying, "Come, from the mazes of Babylon: here is free entrance." Many came from the ends of the earth; and when the Ark was full, it went to a particular land, and then came back to fetch others. This land was a prepared place to plant the virgin Church, and the beloved Apostle John conducted the very last convoy therein.

 

Various temples were seen, where the Elders, in long, white, and shining robes, administered in ordinances and with power unknown before. Some went forth with power from this new found land; and so mighty was their testimony, that many came from all quarters to breathe its pure air, and to enjoy the light of its peculiarly clear atmosphere, which changed even the weakness of the body.

 

I have written this vision so far as the Spirit renews it upon my mind; but the end thereof I do not remember, as I have lost my manuscripts where it was at first written.

 

[We have seldom read anything more pointed or expressive of the Latter-day Work than the foregoing. It is another evidence that those who are spiritually minded, according to the light and advantages they have, can seek after God and learn of His ways—that He giveth liberally to all who ask wisdom of Him, and upraideth not. It was a conviction of this fact that inspired the Prophet Joseph to ask, and in answer to which he received a knowledge of the Latter-day Work and purposes of God, even before he had obeyed any outward ordinances which entitled him to the spirit of inspiration which made him a Prophet and Seer to the world. Many persons have been inspired by God to do certain works, and proclaim certain truths, who never had an opportunity of embracing the everlasting Gospel. But how much more should those possess the spirit of inspiration and prophecy who have access to God through His holy ordinances.—ED.] ("Extracts from the Revelations of Jane Leade," The Latter-day Saint's Millennial Star 20, no. 8 [February 20, 1858]: 124-25)

 

 

Edited August 5 by Calm

[Calm]

Here is Fleming’s dissertation:

https://escholarship.org/content/qt0506z43c/qt0506z43c_noSplash_b92d55e79a1f05fa631426fecef6df14.pdf

[the narrator]

55 minutes ago, Calm said:

Did he speak on any recent findings or was it more just pulling past work together?  I am seeing this from 2012.  I am wondering if so on target, why she hasn’t been discussed more (meaning to imply I am assuming he has some new, impressive stuff I would like to know about…)

https://juvenileinstructor.org/jane-lead-and-the-restoration-or-in-praise-our-heavenly-mother/

There was a good deal more in his presentation. Apparently someone he asked to be an advisor on his dissertation pointed him to Lead, and the things in his dissertation were added fairly late. He said he found a whole lot more since then. The shared themes and identical language he highlighted seemed quite convincing. He also made a good case for how and when Joseph Sr and Jr likely encountered Lead.

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, the narrator said:

There was a good deal more in his presentation. Apparently someone he asked to be an advisor on his dissertation pointed him to Lead, and the things in his dissertation were added fairly late. He said he found a whole lot more since then. The shared themes and identical language he highlighted seemed quite convincing. He also made a good case for how and when Joseph Sr and Jr likely encountered Lead.

Do you know when something will be out in a form we can research? (Footnoted or references)

[the narrator]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Do you know when something will be out in a form we can research? (Footnoted or references)

I do not. He is still in a years-long process of converting (translating/transfigurating?) his dissertation into a book, but I'm sure his Sunstone presentation will be available soonish to look at.

[mfbukowski]

On 8/2/2024 at 9:20 AM, Doctor Steuss said:

For what it's worth, the wine studies have been largely revised as they initially didn't account for the key factor about what demographic tends to drink wine -- people with wealth and access to healthcare.

The vast majority of research currently is pointing to there being no safe amount of alcohol to drink a day, and alcohol being one of the two "food" items that have pretty much been definitively linked to an increased cancer risk (the other being processed meats).

That said, you can pry my deli meats from my cold dead hands.

That's a bunch of baloney !

I mean our ward is down to around 60 in sacrament meetings- and 5 members of that set have cancer.  No drinkers, smokers, caffeine addicts or drug users in that group.

I mean does that sound dangerous?  Yeah this cancer danger stuff is clearly baloney.

 

 

 

 

🤕

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

Here is Fleming’s dissertation:

https://escholarship.org/content/qt0506z43c/qt0506z43c_noSplash_b92d55e79a1f05fa631426fecef6df14.pdf

I read pages 367-368 and disliked it. I don't believe it's true that Christ commanded the mentioned men to swap wives. I believe it was made up, and I'm thinking JS believed it was something that needed to be practiced but that he was deceived. 

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, the narrator said:

I attended Fleming's Sunstone presentation Saturday morning, and I must say that (with at least the quotes he provided) his linking the revelations of Jane Leade to Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon is the strongest and clearest influence I have ever seen.

FWIW I see this entire movement- it's too large to be called anything else- including Joseph Smith- as a "Restoration" of philosophical ideas ultimately caused by Kant and Hume, James, Dewey, and others developing new ways of seeing and defining what "revelation" is, and thereby fortifying Christianity in general.  

It includes other religions /denominations of course as well- but in AMERICA Joseph -"came up with"/ "was chosen" with what paralleled the sense of Manifest Destiny in a formula that worked.  It includes the magic of revelation and scripture, and golden plates, the indigenous people, and an ethics that helped family growth pragmatically, combined with a good dose at first -of Protestant theology, which changed as the movement developed.

Note there is nothing here meant as a "criticism" of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints- I just see it as an impartial discussion using secular language.  Yes I go to church on Sundays

 

[the narrator]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I read pages 367-368 and disliked it. I don't believe it's true that Christ commanded the mentioned men to swap wives. I believe it was made up, and I'm thinking JS believed it was something that needed to be practiced but that he was deceived. 

You probably need to read more than 2 pages then, as Fleming certainly doesn't believe that--and even if he did, he wouldn't have claimed so in his dissertation.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, the narrator said:

You probably need to read more than 2 pages then, as Fleming certainly doesn't believe that--and even if he did, he wouldn't have claimed so in his dissertation.

Will do. Sorry for not doing more research, didn't mean for what I said to disparage Fleming. 

[Zosimus]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

Do you know when something will be out in a form we can research? (Footnoted or references)

He linked to this presentation in his Times & Seasons article above

"Joseph Smith and the Ancient Religion: Or Where Was Zarahemla?"

It's long but worth it to understand Fleming's thoughts on neoplatonism and the sources that Joseph had access to. For a shorter presentation, this is also good:

The Sealed Portion: The Jaredites and the "Ancient Religion" (starting at 2 mins and 30 secs)

This shorter presentation also presents some of the influences Fleming argues come from Thomas Taylor's translations of Plato and other sources such as Ramsay, Enfield, Mosheim and Humboldt. Joseph Smith had a copy of Mosehim's Ecclesiastical History and Enfield's History of Philosophy was available in Palmyra. Ramsay's Travels of Cyrus was in the Manchester Library. Other potential sources I've found, such as Hannah Adam's A View of Religions and Humboldt's Travels, were also in the Manchester Library.

Edited August 6 by Zosimus

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Zosimus said:

Joseph Smith had a copy of Mosehim's Ecclesiastical History 

When?

[Zosimus]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

When?

I can't find the timestamp where he discusses it, but here's his slide:

Smith had at least one volume of Mosheim's multi-volume Ecclesiastical History. iirc I don't think we know when he acquired it, but he later donated it to the Nauvoo Library.

[Doctor Steuss]

17 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

That's a bunch of baloney !

I mean our ward is down to around 60 in sacrament meetings- and 5 members of that set have cancer.  No drinkers, smokers, caffeine addicts or drug users in that group.

I mean does that sound dangerous?  Yeah this cancer danger stuff is clearly baloney.

 

 

 

 

🤕

Many moons ago at an open poetry night, I happened to hit it off and started chatting with a research oncologist (he was wearing a Tom Waits-esque hat, with fake bird and all, so naturally I needed to talk to the dude).  Out of morbid curiosity, I (half jokingly?) asked him what the odds are of me getting cancer.  His reply was "100%, if you live long enough."

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Doctor Steuss said:

Many moons ago at an open poetry night, I happened to hit it off and started chatting with a research oncologist (he was wearing a Tom Waits-esque hat, with fake bird and all, so naturally I needed to talk to the dude).  Out of morbid curiosity, I (half jokingly?) asked him what the odds are of me getting cancer.  His reply was "100%, if you live long enough."

And the fun just keeps coming!

Seriously, some of my best friends have gone through the treatments and their "vitality"- ability to function, get around, speak logically- became worse BECAUSE of the treatments.   It's so very sad.

[Kevin Christensen]

On 8/3/2024 at 12:45 AM, Zosimus said:

An east coast landing is unlikely. If Lehi landed in Florida it would have been far easier to go west from one of the many ports of the Mediterranean instead of wandering south for nine years in the wilderness of the Arabian Peninsula to build a boat in a place where there were no materials to sail more than half way around the world across either 1. the largest ocean or 2.all the way around Africa to get back to where they started from where the Mediterranean meets the Atlantic.

I understand that it is said that God gave Nephi the technology and the training to do the impossible in Bountiful, but I can't fathom why the super inefficient path from Oman to Florida instead of just crossing the Atlantic via the Mediterranean directly.

The Heartland model has so many problems that even most Mormons don't adopt it. It has been rejected because it simply doesn't fit the geography in the Book of Mormon. There's no way to make it fit without ignoring nearly every geographical reference in the text.

Dr. Fleming has an interesting take on Book of Mormon geography, he links to it in the article posted in the OP. He argues Joseph was following Humboldt's descriptions of South and Central America, something similar to the discussion here, IMO a Humboldt-inspired geography makes the most sense given that Charles Anthon's claim that the Book of Mormon characters transcript he witnessed ended with a rude sketch of Humboldt's Mexican zodiac.

 

That geography does not work for me much more than that of the Heartlanders.  Where, for instance, is the narrow strip of wilderness that extends from the East Sea to the West Sea  that separates the Land of Nephi from the Land of Zarahemla as a natural boundary and the source of the Sidon that flows northward past Zarahemla?  And how does the story of Limhi's explorers work?  How do they manage to miss Zarahemla, pass through a land of many waters, find a ruin and the Jaredite record, and suppose they had found Zarahemla, and come back.  And how does Alma's group consisting of families and flocks get from Lake Titicaca to Bogata in 21 days, on foot?  It's not a careful or thorough approach to geography, but is just based on selective and speculative parallel hunting, assuming without sufficient demonstration that if a parallel exists to Humbolt or other such figure, dependence is essentially demonstrated, and never mind the historical accounts or practical issues.  Any details in the Book of Mormon text that do not fit the hypothesis are filtered out in the glory of making a bold connection that explains Joseph Smith as operating as a researcher, rather than a revelator.  One thing I got from reading Sorenson's Mormon's Map is that the military movements and actions make sense in a specific real context including things like the tactical and strategic relevance of the operations bordering the East by the sea shore (Alma 51:23-28, Teacum vs Amalekiah) and those on the West Sea (Helaman vs Lamanites near Manti), something that simply makes no sense with South American geography.  But with the focus on Humbolt, and platonic thought and Lead, and parallels, and mention of Melchezidek, "Don't look there at scripture or apologists.  Look here at the bold scholarship!"

Larry Poulson's work makes very good sense several stories real location.  

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/2008-Larry-Poulsen.pdf

While it happens that Wilfred Poulson of BYU famously located copies of every book in the Manchester lending library, as part of a quest to reconstruct Joseph Smith's intellectual environment, it also happens that the Smiths were not members of the library, Joseph was a day laborer of scanty education with plenty of work to keep him busy (setting up the farm required cutting down 5000 trees, and then splitting rails to fence the property, for starters, not to mention wells, hiring out, making maple syrup, ploughing, digging wells, as well as going to revivals in the area).  Books were expensive and the family was struggling to pay for their farm. And the majority of the Book of Mormon dictation took place in Harmony PA, which at had neither library, nor book store at the time.  The Book of Puki is a snapshot of the kind of thing Joseph's neighbor's expected from him, based on their experience with his intellectual attainments.  And it is most notable for being nothing like the Book of Mormon. We don't have reports from the neighbors saying, "That bookworm!  You could tell he was up to something, always borrowing books and never returning them."   The family members and Emma, who were most likely and able to report on Joseph's youthful bookishness never did so.  The frustrated and jealous money diggers who ransacked and searched the property never said, "No gold plates.  Just all these books, and maps and notes from the Manchester library."   And I notice that when Joseph Smith was able to study and learn German and Hebrew, he was not at all shy about showing off what he knew and what he had read.  In Nauvoo, when he got a copy of Stephens and Catherwood's Incidents of Travels, he was quite happy to promote and recommend it.  Joseph the secret scholar just does not work for me.  As to parallels with Lead and Platonists, I noticed that Fleming's parallels include thoughts along the lines of  "For behold, the Lord doth grant unto all nations, of their own nation and tongue, to teach his word, yea, in wisdom, all that he seeth fit that they should have."  Exclusivity and uniqueness are not LDS truth claims.  "Rather, "I the Lord am willing to make these things known unto all flesh."  Those who think in terms of exclusive and unique truth demonstrate at Position 2 of the Perry Scheme, but that is something human to outgrow, not something uniquely LDS.

For more on Humbolt and the Book of Mormon, see Jeff Lindsay here.

https://www.jefflindsay.com/bme18.shtml

FWIW

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

Edited August 6 by Kevin Christensen