Being a Mormon without Believing in a Historical Book of Mormon, Part 1

[Frank11]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

You can either exercise Moroni's admonition to take it to the Lord at face value, or say to yourself, "Well, that's interesting, but I'm not convinced."

"Well, that's interesting, but I'm not convinced."

[Nevo]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

Are you saying Hickman sees Moroni as an illusion/dream that Joseph experienced and thought was real and therefore overtime fleshed out in his mind—perhaps through additional dreams/self induced ‘visions’ that came because of his obsession with his experience—more and more of the story, believing it was revealed to him where it was his imagination that was the ultimate source (with influences coming from his surroundings)?

Hickman's arguments are a bit hard to follow at times, but he seems to say that Joseph's translation of the Book of Mormon wasn't primarily a linguistic translation but a "metaphysical translation"—which he variously defines as "an act of dynamic movement through space," "spatiotemporal repositioning," and "transgressive traversal of space-time." In the case of the Book of Mormon, Hickman thinks that Joseph Smith accomplished his (metaphysical) translation through the Christian treasure quest.

Hickman draws on insights from historian Johannes Dillinger, who noted that treasure magic was "never about getting treasure directly. It was, first about finding the place where a treasure might be hidden, and, secondly, about coming into contact with the treasure’s spirit guardian." For some Christian treasure seekers "the recovery of treasure was an act of piety. . . . it was a means to make money, but it was also an act of Christian devotion that helped a poor soul to finally enter the hereafter." Dillinger cites the case of a 1770s treasure hunt in Württemberg "that virtually turned into the foundation of a new Christian community." Hickman summarizes the account as follows: "The hunt for treasure led Anna Maria Freyin to an encounter with two spirits who were haunting her master's house, spirits she redeemed. But the story did not end there. After ascending to heaven, the two spirits returned to earth to minister to their human redeemers. Given the experience of heaven these spirits had been afforded, their 'utterances were regarded as divine revelation.' Freyin began recording their utterances in a book that she and others came to understand as the basis of 'a new gospel,' joining them, furthermore, in 'a nascent priesthood.'"

So, Moroni was a treasure guardian that Joseph Smith encountered and sought to "release" by recovering his treasure (the Book of Mormon). The translation of the Book of Mormon was accomplished through virtual movements through space and time via the seer stone. One assumes that Smith's imagination played a role here, but Hickman doesn't actually say whether or not he thinks Moroni was a real historical figure. 

I think it's safe to say that his view on the historicity of the Book of Mormon is "nuanced." Here's an excerpt from his 2017 talk at USU's "New Perspectives on Joseph Smith and Translation" conference:

"Although Joseph Smith and Mormons, early and contemporary, may have asked for the text to be read as ancient, the Book of Mormon itself in its ostentatious anachronism may not be asking to be read as an ancient historical text at all. Rather, it asks to be read as a messianic text that plays fast and loose with space and time, and thus bids us to unconventional forms of historicization, including profound theoretical interrogations of the intellectual coherence of historicizing projects in general."

Edited August 1 by Nevo

[Nevo]

2 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

Edit: Khor Rori might resolve this. Even if they didn't settle there, visits are possible.

Except that the Aston article you linked previously notes that "Khor Rori did not begin to function as a port until the end of the third century BC."

The problem with visiting Khor Rori to get timber (if it was somehow available there), is that you'd have to get it back to Khor Kharfot. Aston admits that overland travel from the interior to Khor Kharfot is very difficult: "The highest and most extensive mountain barriers are found along the Qamar coast, the westernmost section of southern Dhofar where Khor Kharfot is situated. In this area, therefore, a wadi route through these mountains is required." 

There are two wadis leading to Khor Kharfot, Wadi Sayq and Wadi Kharfot, but, as Iftikhar Abbasi noted, "both wadis are steep and short, and their beds are littered with large boulders." How large? "The wadi floor is littered with very large, many meters in diameter boulders on top of indurated gravels" (see, e.g., figs. 8b and 9f in Abbasi's article). These boulders apparently broke off the wadi escarpment during the Holocene.

W. Revell Phillips described the problem in his 2007 JBMS article: "The area surrounding Wadi Sayq is heavily wooded with brush, which is dry most of the year and endowed with uninviting thorns (figure 7). Wadi Sayq today is a narrow canyon for most of its length and is clogged with huge boulders and unfriendly vegetation, making it almost impossible for anyone to bring a caravan down the wadi." Later in the article, he adds: "The only real access to Wadi Sayq is from the sea, and even that access is denied almost half of each year when the sea is too violent for small boats to come ashore. However, Wadi Sayq is a charming, pristine site to bring Latter-day Saint tourists, as the high breakers and surf and the 'wet' landing on an isolated beach is about the right amount of danger and adventure to challenge the modern tourist."

So, it would have been challenging, to say the least, to bring timber from Khor Rori back to Khor Kharfot.

Edited August 1 by Nevo

[the narrator]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

LOL! It doesn't?

DC 89:8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.

Now, it would take some pretty fancy phariseeing to propose that as long as you didn't actually eat it, or swallow the juice after chewing, it was perfectly OK to use tobacco. Try chewing tobacco without swallowing the juice. And how can you smoke tobacco without it getting into your mouth or lungs?

But please go for it, if that's how you feel. No skin off my nose.

The body/belly proscriptions are dealing with medicinal practices--particularly in relation to the humor theory of medicine, which thought that illness was largely due to imbalances in the body which could then be remedied by restoring balance. (That this section of the WofW concerns medicinal use is made pretty clear in verse 8.) This could be done by consuming (belly) or immersing in (body) very hot or cold liquids. (Cautions against consuming hot drinks--usually coffee, tea, and cocoa--were being widely published at the time.) Purging by consuming (belly) tobacco (or using as an enema) and other substances to cause vomiting was also a common practice to restore balance, as well as making a poultice to apply on the sking (body). (Again, these uses were also beginning to be criticized in publications of the time.) Pretty sure the medicinal use of alcohol needs no explanation.

Cautions against tobacco for purging make even more sense given that the Smith family believed that Alvin's death was a result of medical malpractice after he was prescribed calomel for purging, and of course every Latter-day Saint knows the story of Joseph refusing alcohol to aid him during his leg surgery.

If D&C 89 was meant to address smoking or chewing tobacco, it could have very easily used that language--but it does not at all. Instead, it uses language directly related to medicinal use that does not involve smoking or chewing.

[mbh26]

23 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

Quote

My initial assumptions about the geographic references found in the Book of Mormon are (1) Assume a literal meaning. (2) Assume no scribal errors unless internal evidence indicates otherwise. (3) Assume no duplication of placenames unless the text is unambiguous on the matter. (4) Assume that all passages are internally consistent and can be reconciled. (5) Assume that uniformitarian rather than catastrophic principles apply to the actual Book of Mormon lands (i.e., that the locality where the Book of Mormon events took place was not unrecognizably altered at the time of the crucifixion, that geographic details in the small plates and in the book of Ether are therefore compatible with those in Mormon’s and Moroni’s abridgment, and that the principles of natural science that apply to today’s environments are also pertinent to Nephite lands). (6) Assume that the best internal reconstruction is one that reconciles all the data in the Book of Mormon with a minimum of additional assumptions

I can understand why one might conclude that by Occam's razor one location may be more likely than another.  I think what Rod Meldrum is pointing out that other interpretations are also possible even if less likely.  I could see a lot of assumptions that while likely, perhaps incorrect could change which theory is more likely, especially the age of the earth, whether there were an actual global flood, how it happened, and how you choose to deal with many other details in the Old Testament that aren't in line with current science.  

For me, Joseph Smith's statement of where Adam ondi Ahman is, is pretty set in stone.  I'm not sure how to work around that.  Saying that the promised land is Guatemala rather than the American midwest doesn't seem to fit with Doctrine and Covenants which I believe is talking about the United States rather than Guatemala or Colombia etc.  Is it possible I'm wrong?  Sure, but for me a hill Cumorah in central America or a Zarahemla in central America, open up more conundrums as well.  So until we know more, I don't see a reason to abandon what I think were the original understandings of the early Saints.  If people in Central and South American want to believe the promised land is there, that's fine with me.  I even told them that when I was missionary and don't regret it because that's one interpretation.  But what I've stopped accepting is the scientists who say, a global flood is impossible, evolution is no more theory than electricity, or scholars who say it's impossible based on what we know that the final battle occurred in upstate New York.  Lots of things are possible given what little we know now.  

Edited August 1 by mbh26

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Nevo said:

which he variously defines as "an act of dynamic movement through space," "spatiotemporal repositioning," and "transgressive traversal of space-time."

Using what sounds like half mystical, half scientific words that, honestly, could mean so many different things leads me to really wonder if Hickman saw this as more than an internal self-induced happening.  Iow, there was something there influencing Joseph, perhaps the spirit of an ancient inhabitant, an actual treasure guardian.

Quote

"Although Joseph Smith and Mormons, early and contemporary, may have asked for the text to be read as ancient, the Book of Mormon itself in its ostentatious anachronism may not be asking to be read as an ancient historical text at all. Rather, it asks to be read as a messianic text that plays fast and loose with space and time, and thus bids us to unconventional forms of historicization, including profound theoretical interrogations of the intellectual coherence of historicizing projects in general."

It is an interesting construction that appears to allow for an historical tie if desired.

[OGHoosier]

1 hour ago, Nevo said:

Except that the Aston article you linked previously notes that "Khor Rori did not begin to function as a port until the end of the third century BC."

The Hadramawt colony of Sumharam, for which the area is most famously known, was build towards the end of the third century BC, yes. But the area was certainly occupied before that, as we see here. In fact, there is evidence that the area was occupied starting in the 8th century BC, 100 years before Lehi. There's not evidence of a large-scale shipbuilding establishment at such an early date, but it's likely that at the very least the natural harbor was used as a shelter from the winter monsoons by passing merchant vessels. 

Since I'm already in schizo theory mode, why not make it entertaining? Behold the Magan boat. Ships of this kind traveled as far as the Indus Valley during the Bronze Age - other reed boats without waterproofing have been able to cross the Pacific. Dhofar acacia and sycamore are suitable for internal woodworking but not the hull. I propose that Nephi's vessel was a somewhat larger version of the Magan boat with a hull made of reeds and local wood warterproofed with bitumen or other varieties of tar. 

If Nephi gets an education in the basics of sailing from Khor Rori, if Jeffrey Chadwick is right that they spent years there, if bitumen can be found in the fairly oil-rich Omani escarpment, and reeds in sufficient quantity, it just might work . 

[Nevo]

19 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

The Hadramawt colony of Sumharam, for which the area is most famously known, was build towards the end of the third century BC, yes. But the area was certainly occupied before that, as we see here. In fact, there is evidence that the area was occupied starting in the 8th century BC, 100 years before Lehi. There's not evidence of a large-scale shipbuilding establishment at such an early date, but it's likely that at the very least the natural harbor was used as a shelter from the winter monsoons by passing merchant vessels.

Yes, Khor Rori was populated in 600 BC, which is another reason why it isn't a suitable candidate for Bountiful.

As Warren Aston explains: "1 Nephi 17 is full of indications that Bountiful had little or no resident population at that time who could contribute tools and manpower to the ship building process. Consider that rather than simply consulting locals or making a local purchase, it required a specific revelation to show Nephi where ore could be found (1 Nephi 17:9–10) to make basic tools. Great effort was then expended by him to fashion his own bellows of skins, locate the ore, make fire by striking stones together, smelt it and then manufacture the tools he would need. Such items as basic tools, bellows, and a fire source would have been easily obtained by anyone living in or near a populated seaport. It is also clear from the record that Nephi needed the labor of his brothers and of Zoram, whereas a populated location would likely offer other, more willing, sources of labor."

19 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

Since I'm already in schizo theory mode, why not make it entertaining? Behold the Magan boat. Ships of this kind traveled as far as the Indus Valley during the Bronze Age - other reed boats without waterproofing have been able to cross the Pacific. Dhofar acacia and sycamore are suitable for internal woodworking but not the hull. I propose that Nephi's vessel was a somewhat larger version of the Magan boat with a hull made of reeds and local wood warterproofed with bitumen or other varieties of tar. 

If Nephi gets an education in the basics of sailing from Khor Rori, if Jeffrey Chadwick is right that they spent years there, if bitumen can be found in the fairly oil-rich Omani escarpment, and reeds in sufficient quantity, it just might work . 

So you're telling me there's a chance

[Stargazer]

3 hours ago, Frank11 said:

"Well, that's interesting, but I'm not convinced."

So there we are!  

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, the narrator said:

The body/belly proscriptions are dealing with medicinal practices--particularly in relation to the humor theory of medicine, which thought that illness was largely due to imbalances in the body which could then be remedied by restoring balance. (That this section of the WofW concerns medicinal use is made pretty clear in verse 8.) This could be done by consuming (belly) or immersing in (body) very hot or cold liquids. (Cautions against consuming hot drinks--usually coffee, tea, and cocoa--were being widely published at the time.) Purging by consuming (belly) tobacco (or using as an enema) and other substances to cause vomiting was also a common practice to restore balance, as well as making a poultice to apply on the sking (body). (Again, these uses were also beginning to be criticized in publications of the time.) Pretty sure the medicinal use of alcohol needs no explanation.

Cautions against tobacco for purging make even more sense given that the Smith family believed that Alvin's death was a result of medical malpractice after he was prescribed calomel for purging, and of course every Latter-day Saint knows the story of Joseph refusing alcohol to aid him during his leg surgery.

If D&C 89 was meant to address smoking or chewing tobacco, it could have very easily used that language--but it does not at all. Instead, it uses language directly related to medicinal use that does not involve smoking or chewing.

So you're unconvinced that DC 89 is a genuine revelation from God. OK, then. 

[OGHoosier]

1 hour ago, Nevo said:

As Warren Aston explains: "1 Nephi 17 is full of indications that Bountiful had little or no resident population at that time who could contribute tools and manpower to the ship building process. Consider that rather than simply consulting locals or making a local purchase, it required a specific revelation to show Nephi where ore could be found (1 Nephi 17:9–10) to make basic tools. Great effort was then expended by him to fashion his own bellows of skins, locate the ore, make fire by striking stones together, smelt it and then manufacture the tools he would need. Such items as basic tools, bellows, and a fire source would have been easily obtained by anyone living in or near a populated seaport. It is also clear from the record that Nephi needed the labor of his brothers and of Zoram, whereas a populated location would likely offer other, more willing, sources of labor."

I actually disagree with Aston here. Nephi's need to provide his own ore implies a lack of access to iron and the appropriate facilities, not necessarily their total absence. Perhaps the establishment in Khor Rori lacked a permanent blacksmith or refused to permit Nephi to use them. And building a ship is a lot of work, so I see no reason why the labor of Zoram and the brothers would preclude other sources of labor.

Bloomery technology seems capable of producing the requisite iron for hand tools, which perhaps were needed as a supplement to local inventories. Nails aren't mentioned. Charcoal supply might be an issue but at this remove I doubt we can say one way or another. Another issue might be a supply of reeds - but given several years and the multiple lakes in the Wadi Darbat, it might be doable. Also I believe in a God who turns water into wine and can summon whole schools of Galilean fish. Compared to that, what's a few seasons of particularly prolific Phragmites growth?

Another hangup is rope. They may have needed to trade for that.

If Ishmael's sons were ironworkers or carpenters, or if there was anybody else in Khor Rori with those skills willing to help, and God was giving instructions (easiest thing ever for Him)...yeah, I think it could be done. That would justify God sending them back for Ishmael and his family, and also explain why Nephi doesn't talk about them much since they went with Laman and Lemuel and 1st Nephi is understood among apologists as a political document. Don't want to make the enemy seem useful. 

Honestly, I'm kind of spitballing here. Maybe it's just a form of processing, idk. But "I don't know" seems to be the rule of the day. 

Edited August 1 by OGHoosier

[Dario_M]

20 hours ago, Stargazer said:

There's nothing morally wrong with drinking coffee, tea, beer, whiskey, or smoking/chewing tobacco. I'm allowed to do all of that. But I don't. Why? Because I have covenanted 

 

That was not my point. Why does the book of Mormon says nothing about cola or energy drinks? While the book of Mormon teachs us to not drink tea. Because tea is bad for us...at least that's what the Book of Mormon teach us.

Edited August 1 by Dario_M

[Stargazer]

18 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I have my doubts about the lack of iron. Iron ore is pretty prevalent almost everywhere and usually can be quarried instead of mined. I do question how Nephi knew what to do with the ore. The ability to make iron tools is not something you can realistically learn by trial and error in a reasonable timeframe and it was a professional job. Another big question is where did they get the labor to fell the trees, charcoal the wood, and then do all the iron processing? Producing a small amount of iron requires a lot of fuel..

As the Book of Mormon narrative says, the Lord showed him what to do and how to do it. Nephi said that the Lord's idea of the ship he wanted to Nephi to build did not resemble standard ships as the Lehites knew them.

1 Ne 17:8 -> And it came to pass that the Lord spake unto me, saying: Thou shalt construct a ship, after the manner which I shall show thee, that I may carry thy people across these waters.   

1 Ne 18:1,2 -> and we did work timbers of curious workmanship. And the Lord did show me from time to time after what manner I should work the timbers of the ship. Now I, Nephi, did not work the timbers after the manner which was learned by men, neither did I build the ship after the manner of men; but I did build it after the manner which the Lord had shown unto me; wherefore, it was not after the manner of men.

Most of us in our spiritual lives do not need the kind of direction that the Lord gives Nephi here. But Nephi had an enormously important and difficult task to perform, so he obviously got far more than you or I are likely to receive. 

As for adult workers, he had his three older brothers, Zoram, and Ishmael's two sons. That's seven grown men, and seven or more grown women (did Lehi and Sariah have daughters?). We know that their party passed through inhabited areas, such as Nahom, and from thence they followed a recognized trade route, where they would have run into other travelers. Could they have been joined by others, of whom nothing is written? 

In Nibley's 1988 book, Lehi in the Desert; the World of the Jaredites, Nibley argues that Lehi's wealth (ultimately taken by Laban) was likely obtained by trade between Israel and Egypt, and that Lehi was well-acquainted with mounting expeditions from one place to another. It seems that he would have had some degree of tooling, including wood-cutting tools, to enable him to live off the land. They certainly had a basic set of tools to start with. 

How long were they at Bountiful building the ship? Would have been more than just a few years -- Nephi doesn't say. Besides ship building they would have had to grow food or hunt for it, and preserve it for the journey, so the ship building process wouldn't have been their only activity. 

If they were doing all this by themselves with no significant help from God then in my opinion it would have been impossible. But this expedition was of extremely high value to God, so they would have gotten an extreme amount of help.

And then again, if the BoM is completely ahistorical, like the story of Job probably is, IMHO, then it's just an extended allegory with no real-world value. Which I don't believe, but if it turned out to be so, it wouldn't affect my testimony of it.

 

 

[Nevo]

48 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

I actually disagree with Aston here. Nephi's need to provide his own ore implies a lack of access to iron and the appropriate facilities, not necessarily their total absence. Perhaps the establishment in Khor Rori lacked a permanent blacksmith or refused to permit Nephi to use them. And building a ship is a lot of work, so I see no reason why the labor of Zoram and the brothers would preclude other sources of labor.

I expect George Potter would agree with you. And it would be totally on-brand for Nephi not to mention local populations. They had to have traveled through cities and other populated areas of southern Arabia en route to Bountiful but the text is completely silent about them. Seafaring at the time typically involved skirting the coast and stopping at different ports, yet the text implies that they travelled on open sea the whole way. And when they get to the Promised Land there are descriptions of animals they encountered (including domestic animals) but not people.

Edited August 1 by Nevo

[the narrator]

56 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

So you're unconvinced that DC 89 is a genuine revelation from God. OK, then. 

What a silly conclusion. Are you really saying that if Joseph felt inspired to affirm or incorporate something then it isn't revelation?

[OGHoosier]

1 minute ago, Nevo said:

And it would be totally on-brand for Nephi not to mention local populations.

Heck, Nephi barely even mentions his own brothers except as foils to him. Where is his brother Joseph in the record, beyond a mention of his birth? Nowhere except for Lehi addressing him. Where's Ishmael's sons? Nowhere except for that they side with Laman and Lemuel. Sam? Jacob (outside of his own writings)? Nephi's own wife and kids?

1 and 2 Nephi are the Nephi Show, absence of mention is definitely not evidence of absence.

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

Jacob (outside of his own writings)?

2 Nephi 6-11

[Stargazer]

22 minutes ago, the narrator said:

What a silly conclusion. Are you really saying that if Joseph felt inspired to affirm or incorporate something then it isn't revelation?

I'm obviously misreading you. Sorry! 

[the narrator]

8 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I'm obviously misreading you. Sorry! 

I forgive you!

And let me add that given the amount of fraudulent homeopathic cures, the US health insurance industry, and profit-corrupted medicine out there, the WofW as a warning about such things seems far more prophetic than Latter-day Saints quibbling over caffeine:

Quote

In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you,

 

Edited August 1 by the narrator

[Stargazer]

49 minutes ago, the narrator said:

I forgive you!

This actually made me smile greatly! Feels good.

[Nevo]

3 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

Another hangup is rope. They may have needed to trade for that.

Don't forget about the sail(s)!

Here's an interesting tidbit about Viking ships: "A flock of sheep was needed to provide enough wool to make a sail. This required a significant amount of both land and people. Wool production became an important collective focus of Viking societies as families banded together to produce enough wool to make a sail. It has been estimated that about 400 sheep were needed to provide the required amount of wool for the sail of a Viking ship."

[Teancum]

On 7/30/2024 at 6:53 PM, rpn said:

It's tough for me to see how it is not historical (at least that Mormon thought it was and the original writers tried to make it so consistent with their own understandings and limitations) because of his vision that told him what was important for us to know this day.   It would be a form of intentional deception to promote it as such if it weren't so and that was never Joseph Smith.   OTOH, there is a modern history of trying to undermine people's believe in it, which supports that it is real ---why else would Satan be pushing this claim?

If it is in fact NOT historical does the book lose value and meaning for you?

[Teancum]

On 7/30/2024 at 11:05 PM, ZealouslyStriving said:

If Joseph believed it was historical, but it wasn't then he was being deceived because he believed actual characters from the Book of Mormon ministered to him. So the logical end of the perspective is that beings posing as people they were not appeared to him and deceived him, and Galatians 1:8 does indeed apply to the Restoration.

But it doesn't...

Because Joseph knew what he was talking about. The story is true history and the people of the Book are actual people that actually lived, and actually did appear to and instruct Joseph- and all the devils in hell cannot change that truth.

 

Well certainly Joseph could have been making it all up and lying about it all. And he may even convinced himself of his lies. So where does one go with this?  It boils down to faith, as it seems to always with fantastical  religious claims.

[Teancum]

On 7/31/2024 at 12:16 PM, mbh26 said:

Perhaps the archaeologists are looking in the wrong place.  The promised land was always in North America, not central or South America.  There is no two Adam Ondi Ahman theory, why do we need a two Cumorah theory?  

So do you reject the Mesoamerica model and favor the Heartland model for the BoM location?

[Stargazer]

17 minutes ago, Nevo said:

Don't forget about the sail(s)!

The Jaredites didn't have sails. Perhaps neither did the Lehites. The only thing we know about the ship they built was that it didn't look like any other ship they knew about.

17 minutes ago, Nevo said:

Here's an interesting tidbit about Viking ships: "A flock of sheep was needed to provide enough wool to make a sail. This required a significant amount of both land and people. Wool production became an important collective focus of Viking societies as families banded together to produce enough wool to make a sail. It has been estimated that about 400 sheep were needed to provide the required amount of wool for the sail of a Viking ship."