Being a Mormon without Believing in a Historical Book of Mormon, Part 1

[Stargazer]

23 minutes ago, Frank11 said:

I would not underestimate Joseph Smith's abilities. He will certainly have had metalworking skills and tools if he worked in the cooper shop. -> https://www.hmdb.org/m.asp?m=117629

 Since the plates were always wrapped in cloth anyway, they could also have been made of tin.

As heavy as they were reported to be? Witnesses who didn't get to see the plates reported that they were quite heavy. And they weren't always wrapped in cloth. Eight men examined them uncovered and reported that they saw and "hefted" the plates. I think they might have noticed it if they were made of light metal.

Are you playing devil's advocate here, or are you seriously suggesting that if Joseph Sr was a master cooper, that makes his son one as well? Joseph doesn't mention it as the principal occupation of his family -- they were primarily farmers. Coopering doesn't seem to be anything other than a side-hustle for them.  Coopers worked in wood and iron anyway -- they left tinsmithing to the traveling tinkers and other such. Coopers work in metals that require a lot of heat, whereas tinsmithing is done using much lighter tooling (hint: tin is soft), and except for soldering for repairs, the trade doesn't require much heat at all.

I suppose that Joseph might have learned tinsmithing in his spare time. But it doesn't seem that anyone, pro- or anti- ever mentioned him doing any tinsmithing.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, brownbear said:

Do you think it would be harmful in the long term if space were made for a metaphorical view now? Do you think the church will eventually consider this view ‘acceptable’?

We’ve seen some acceptance within the broader church, with quotes from Grant Hardy and organizations like Faith Matters.

Who do you understand would be making the space?

How does the Church define and use the term "historical" in relation to the Book of Mormon?

How did you assess the degree of acceptance within the "broader church," and by "broader church," do you mean the global membership?

[rodheadlee]

2 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

I mean, this isn't true for all of it: https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/nephis-bountiful-contrasting-both-candidates/. Inspiring Nephi on maritime construction is honestly one of the more believable things God could do imo. 

But in a wider sense I grasp your point. I've sampled anthropological research from Mesoamerica, New York, Baja peninsula, and the Atrato River valley. There's nowhere that's really satisfying - if the Book of Mormon happened anywhere, the text that Joseph Smith produced was definitely a "creative and cultural translation" as Royal Skousen puts it. Taking Nephite experiences and translating them into frontier American expectations. I think the Pentateuch works in a similar way. 

I don't know how to explain spiritual experiences in my own family associated with the Church without God. Or my own, or the many reported by Saints across the ages including the Witnesses. Also I really do believe Joseph Smith was sincere. Naturalistic explanations for all of the above are unsatisfying and reductive, I've never found one worth believing. But the Book of Mormon is a hard sell and, in my more sober moments, I don't really know how to handle all of it. God's here, I think, and I sure love the theology of the book, but I don't know what to do with it. Then again, I don't know what I expected. The book presents itself as a series of miracles. Since when were miracles probable? If probability fails anywhere, it fails in the presence of God, who defines the constraints by which probability even works.

Are you familiar with Larry Poulsen's work? Book of Mormon geography presented at the 2008 Fair conference? fairlatterdaysaints.org

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

There's nothing morally wrong with drinking coffee, tea, beer, whiskey, or smoking/chewing tobacco. I'm allowed to do all of that. But I don't. Why? Because I have covenanted with the Lord to refrain from consuming those things. For one thing, it's wise to refrain from consuming those things. They are all unhealthy. That's why section 89 of the Doctrine and Covenants if called "The Word of Wisdom." If you would like to re-read it, here's a link to it: D&C 89. It's up to you to decide if you believe God revealed it to Joseph Smith, or not, and it's up to you to decide if you want to follow it. But if God gives you advice, shouldn't you follow it? It happens that the Church decided many years ago to set the Word of Wisdom to be a standard for full fellowship in the Church. But if you choose to ignore it, your membership is not at stake -- you cannot be kicked out if you ignore the Word of Wisdom. It's entirely voluntary, although if you're not a member already, the missionaries will not baptize you unless you commit to follow it. If you are a member already, if you wish to enter the House of the Lord, keeping the Word of Wisdom is one of the prerequisites. 

Why is drinking cola or energy drinks not breaking the Word of Wisdom? Because unless the drinks contain coffee or tea, drinking them is not breaking the WoW. Some members (and I may get pushback on this) feel that caffeine is the thing. And if they want to avoid caffeine as if it were against the WoW, then that's their right. But the Prophet's brother, Hyrum, said that by "hot drinks" the Lord meant coffee and tea. And there's some confusion about "tea" in some peoples' minds. "Tea" means the plant camellia sinensis, which has various degrees of processing that result in white tea, yellow tea, green tea, oolong, dark tea, and black tea. 

I hope this helps.

 

I've read that it was to get back at Emma for not wanting the men to chew tobacco while meeting together because she was in charge of cleaning up the mess after it gets spit out. But it's probably false. 

[Nevo]

2 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

I mean, this isn't true for all of it: https://journal.interpreterfoundation.org/nephis-bountiful-contrasting-both-candidates/. Inspiring Nephi on maritime construction is honestly one of the more believable things God could do imo.

I notice that Aston admits that "the question of shipbuilding timber remains unresolved." He half-heartedly suggests tamarind as a possibility (although "it does not figure prominently in shipbuilding"), but he's clearly hoping that an extinct species will prove a more suitable candidate: "no pollen studies have yet been done at Khor Kharfot, or anywhere else along the Qamar coast, that might reveal additional species present in the past." That made me laugh, but at least he's honest.

Terry B. Ball, an archaeobotanist by training, noted several years ago that the tamarind tree "is a native of tropical Africa that may not have been introduced until after Lehi’s family left the area." The good stuff was all in India unfortunately.
 

2 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

But in a wider sense I grasp your point. I've sampled anthropological research from Mesoamerica, New York, Baja peninsula, and the Atrato River valley. There's nowhere that's really satisfying - if the Book of Mormon happened anywhere, the text that Joseph Smith produced was definitely a "creative and cultural translation" as Royal Skousen puts it. Taking Nephite experiences and translating them into frontier American expectations. I think the Pentateuch works in a similar way. 

I've been toying with this thought lately: If it's true that God communicates with his servants "in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding," perhaps God communicated spiritual truths to Joseph Smith using dreams and visions received through his seer stone, using the cultural template that was already in Joseph's mind—namely, that Native Americans were a lost remnant of Israel, that great civilizations had once inhabited the land, that the Christian gospel had been preached from the days of Adam, etc.

I started thinking about this after reading Jared Hickman's article in Producing Ancient Scripture. Hickman suggests that Joseph Smith "experienced an encounter with the anxious guardian of what may have been initially regarded as an Indian treasure, one of the distinctive objects of the American magical treasure quest. In this case, the treasure guardian sought a particular form of deliverance requiring the acquisition of a particular form of treasure. Evidence suggests that, as he had done before, Smith likely engaged in a dynamic virtual movement through a seer stone in order to locate the hoard of which Moroni spoke. He then undertook a dynamic actual movement to realize what he had experienced in that virtual movement, digging in what would come to be known as the Hill Cumorah."

But the "treasure" wasn't what Smith expected. "The set of golden plates that Smith viewed virtually in the seer stone was not the object of realization. Rather, it was the ancient American past virtually projected by Moroni's appearance and allusions. The ascent that Moroni sought was 'out of the dust' by means of the publication of his 'voice' and the voices of his ancestors. . . . In his sincere eagerness to release Moroni out of obscurity and into the bright light of unfolding salvation history, Smith may have used his seer stones increasingly ambitious virtual expeditions, seeking out Moroni and the world for which he spoke. Perhaps at this early point he was already obtaining something like the "panoramic visions" Samuel Morris Brown posits as a mechanism for the production of the dictated English text of the Book of Mormon. Smith, the most devout of all Christian treasure seekers, launched himself again and again through space and time in pursuit of the treasure that he increasingly came to understand Moroni was specifying—not the golden plates of a local hill but the lived history of ancient America that the plates represented." 

Hickman seems to be influenced here by Sam Brown's In Heaven as It Is on Earth. Brown writes: "The Mormon prophet's quest for buried treasure emphasized the dead and their secreted artifacts, as did the religion-building that soon followed. . . . Smith's later attempts to secure prophetic respectability should not obscure the critical continuities between his early quest and his later ministry. Right up to the end of his life, Smith explained that 'it has always been my province to dig up hidden mysteries.'"

Brown cites William Stafford's recollection that Joseph had claimed that "nearly all the hills in this part of New York, were thrown up by human hands, and in them were large caves . . . he could see within the above mentioned caves, large gold bars and silver plates—that he could also discover the spirits in whose charge these treasures were, clothed in ancient dress." It seems clear that Joseph Smith viewed the drumlin near his home as a massive grave mound and that he believed that he had been called to bring forth those things that had been "hid up unto the Lord" by its inhabitants.

I like this comment from William Davis: "In the end, however one chooses to understand Smith's involvement in the production of the Book of Mormon, his method of revelatory translation complicates easy characterizations of the process. Because Smith's approach involved meditating on narrative possibilities, while seeking spiritual confirmation about their truthfulness and historical authenticity, the work emerged from some form of dialectical process, which, nuanced according to one's beliefs, might be understood as involving the participation of the Holy Spirit in connection with Smith's inspired imagination or as a complex matrix of Smith's affective and spontaneous responses to conscious narrative creations and subconscious elaborations in his mind. Whatever we may choose to believe, the historical record strongly suggests that Joseph Smith genuinely felt that his project emerged from divine inspiration and guidance."
 

2 hours ago, OGHoosier said:

I don't know how to explain spiritual experiences in my own family associated with the Church without God. Or my own, or the many reported by Saints across the ages including the Witnesses. Also I really do believe Joseph Smith was sincere. Naturalistic explanations for all of the above are unsatisfying and reductive, I've never found one worth believing. But the Book of Mormon is a hard sell and, in my more sober moments, I don't really know how to handle all of it. God's here, I think, and I sure love the theology of the book, but I don't know what to do with it. Then again, I don't know what I expected. The book presents itself as a series of miracles. Since when were miracles probable? If probability fails anywhere, it fails in the presence of God, who is defines the constraints by which probability even works.

This is beautifully stated. I've also seen my own life blessed, and the lives of those I love, by the Book of Mormon. I agree that the naturalistic explanations proposed are unsatisfying and reductive, but I also can't make sense of it as history. So I live with the mystery. If I am to be judged for not believing enough, I hope the words of Psalm 103 may apply: "Like as a father pitieth his children, so the LORD pitieth them that fear him. For he knoweth our frame; he remembereth that we are dust."

Edited August 1 by Nevo

[Nevo]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I have my doubts about the lack of iron. Iron ore is pretty prevalent almost everywhere and usually can be quarried instead of mined. I do question how Nephi knew what to do with the ore. The ability to make iron tools is not something you can realistically learn by trial and error in a reasonable timeframe and it was a professional job. Another big question is where did they get the labor to fell the trees, charcoal the wood, and then do all the iron processing? Producing a small amount of iron requires a lot of fuel..

BYU geologist W. Revell Phillips claimed, in 2007, on the basis of his own investigations in the region that "only the Marbat Plain and a tiny exposure of basement rock at a small wadi between Raykut and Mughsayl are likely to yield ore, and iron ore is, indeed, present at both locations." This was "not enough for an iron industry," he conceded, "but far more than adequate for Nephi’s needs." The Aston paper that OGHoosier linked to cites a more recent survey, which found "localized iron concretions along hardgrounds in Cretaceous limestone" in the area of Khor Kharfot, so you may be right about some iron being present. But, as you point out, smelting iron ore would be no easy task. Especially for an office drone like Nephi.

[Frank11]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

As heavy as they were reported to be? Witnesses who didn't get to see the plates reported that they were quite heavy. And they weren't always wrapped in cloth. Eight men examined them uncovered and reported that they saw and "hefted" the plates. I think they might have noticed it if they were made of light metal.

Are you playing devil's advocate here, or are you seriously suggesting that if Joseph Sr was a master cooper, that makes his son one as well? Joseph doesn't mention it as the principal occupation of his family -- they were primarily farmers. Coopering doesn't seem to be anything other than a side-hustle for them.  Coopers worked in wood and iron anyway -- they left tinsmithing to the traveling tinkers and other such. Coopers work in metals that require a lot of heat, whereas tinsmithing is done using much lighter tooling (hint: tin is soft), and except for soldering for repairs, the trade doesn't require much heat at all.

I suppose that Joseph might have learned tinsmithing in his spare time. But it doesn't seem that anyone, pro- or anti- ever mentioned him doing any tinsmithing.

The weight was estimated at 40 to 60 pounds. With gold we would be at 200 pounds.
Considering that this is an estimate, it fits quite well with tin and making something like this is not that difficult. By the way, there's someone who did it with tin as an experiment. -> https://youtu.be/lI5bJz1jNjU?si=ARHDv7jXjbTUtasK&t=474

With selected witnesses, all from the folk magic scene, the visual inspection can also be done via vision. With the Burnett letter, I see at least one counter-witness. -> https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letterbook-2/69

[webbles]

48 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I've read that it was to get back at Emma for not wanting the men to chew tobacco while meeting together because she was in charge of cleaning up the mess after it gets spit out. But it's probably false. 

It wasn't to "get back at Emma".  But Emma was one of the main triggers.  She had concerns about the ugliness of the stuff (both because of cleaning and being around sacred places) and Joseph prayed about it.

[Nevo]

3 hours ago, brownbear said:

Do you think it would be harmful in the long term if space were made for a metaphorical view now? Do you think the church will eventually consider this view ‘acceptable’?

We’ve seen some acceptance within the broader church, with quotes from Grant Hardy and organizations like Faith Matters.

I think the Church will continue to accommodate this view in some limited way, but I don't foresee it becoming acceptable to teach it in Sunday School or over the pulpit anytime soon. Not in the next decade or two. I don't see President Bednar letting that happen. But I could be wrong. Maybe it will become as common and accepted as belief in evolution is now.

I just worry that a watered-down belief will lead to watered-down commitment. The Church only exists today because earlier generations were all in. 

I often re-read Parley P. Pratt's poem, "My Fiftieth Year." I served my mission in Chile and several years ago was visiting the cemetery in Valparaiso where I saw this plaque: 

Omner Pratt—note the Book of Mormon name—was born at sea and died at 5 weeks old while Parley was en route to Chile to preach the gospel. Would he have sacrificed so much for a metaphorical belief in the Book of Mormon?

This, after all, is the man who wrote: "It was well for Noah that he was not well versed in the spiritualizing systems of modern divinity; for, under their benighted influence, he would never have believed that so marvellous a prophecy would have had a literal meaning and accomplishment. No, he would have been told that the flood meant a spiritual flood, and the Ark a spiritual Ark, and the moment he thought otherwise, he would have been set down for a fanatic, knave, or fool; but it was so, that he was just simple enough to believe the prophecy literally."

Here is Parley's poem, "My Fiftieth Year":

I am fifty years old! I have lived to see
Seven times seven and a Jubilee.
That period famed in the days of yore
As a grand release for the humble poor;
When the pledg'd estate was again restor'd,
And the bondman free'd from his tyrant lord.
When man his fellow was bound to forgive,
And begin anew to think and to live.
The nations have hail'd the year of my birth
As a Jubilee to the groaning earth.
The triumphs of steam over land and sea
Have stamp'd the age of my Jubilee.
I have mark'd its progress at ev'ry stride,
From the day it was launch'd on the Hudson's tide
Till it conquer'd the ocean—grasp'd the land,
And join'd the world in a common band.
I have liv'd to behold the lightnings yield
To the mandate of man, and take the field,
As a servant-runner to bear the news
In an instant, where its lord might choose.

And, scarce less strange, I have liv'd to behold
A Mormon Sage, with his wand of gold,
Overturn the world, and toss it up
As a teller of Fortunes would his cup.
All these are facts; but of little worth,
Compared with a Prophet restored to earth.
I have seen his day and have heard his voice
Which enraged a world, while the meek rejoice.
I have read the fate of all earthly things:
The end of thrones, and the end of kings.
I have learned that truth alone shall stand,
And the Kingdom of God fill every land.
I have seen that Kingdom rolling along,
And taking its seat 'mid the mountains strong;
While the nations wondered, but could not tell
To what these wondrous things would swell.
I have wandered far, over land and sea,
To proclaim to the world its destiny—
To cry to the nations, repent and live,
And be ready the bridegroom to receive.

I have wandered far—I have wandered wide,
From Maine to the wild Missouri's tide;
And over the Atlantic's sea-girt isles
Full many a weary thousand miles.
I have trampled the desert's burning sands
And the snow-clad mountains of unknown lands.
'Mid the crystal waters of Deseret
I have pulled the oar and cast the net.
I have climbed the steeps 'mid the golden ore,
And roamed o'er the lone Pacific shore.
I have ploughed its bosom many a day
To visit the nations far away.
I have stood on Chili's distant shore,
Where the Polar Star is seen no more.
I have gazed on the Andes' heights of snow,
And roamed 'mid the flowery plains below.
I have toiled with the great in freedom's cause,
And assisted to give to a State its laws.
I have lain in a dungeon, bound in chains,
And been honored in Courts where Justice reigns.
In a thousand joys, and a thousand fears
I have struggled on through my fifty years.
And now, by the law of God, I am free;
I will seek to enjoy my Jubilee.
I will hie me home, to my mountain dell,
And will say to the "Christian" world—farewell!
I have served ye long—; 'twas a thankless task;
To retire in peace is all I ask.

Another fifty years will fully prove
Our message true, and all our motives love.
Then shall an humble world in reverence bow,
And hail the Prophets so rejected now.
Kings shall revere, and nations incense bring
To Zion's temple and to Zion's King.
I shall be there and celebrate the day
'Till twice ten fifties shall have passed away.

Edited August 1 by Nevo

[the narrator]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

There's nothing morally wrong with drinking coffee, tea, beer, whiskey, or smoking/chewing tobacco. I'm allowed to do all of that. But I don't. Why? Because I have covenanted with the Lord to refrain from consuming those things. For one thing, it's wise to refrain from consuming those things. They are all unhealthy. That's why section 89 of the Doctrine and Covenants if called "The Word of Wisdom."

D&C 89 says nothing about chewing or smoking tobacco.

[ZealouslyStriving]

3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

it doesn't seem that anyone, pro- or anti- ever mentioned him doing any tinsmithing

And you know the haters of his time would've latched on to his metal working prowess if it existed, as evidence he made th plates himself.

[brownbear]

49 minutes ago, Nevo said:

I just worry that a watered-down belief will lead to watered-down commitment. The Church only exists today because earlier generations were all in. 

I think this would naturally fallen, unfortunately. Is this what happened to CoC?

[OGHoosier]

2 hours ago, Nevo said:

I notice that Aston admits that "the question of shipbuilding timber remains unresolved." He half-heartedly suggests tamarind as a possibility (although "it does not figure prominently in shipbuilding"), but he's clearly hoping that an extinct species will prove a more suitable candidate: "no pollen studies have yet been done at Khor Kharfot, or anywhere else along the Qamar coast, that might reveal additional species present in the past." That made me laugh, but at least he's honest.

Terry B. Ball, an archaeobotanist by training, noted several years ago that the tamarind tree "is a native of tropical Africa that may not have been introduced until after Lehi’s family left the area." The good stuff was all in India unfortunately.

I half-expect you to already have seen this (because you've already seen everything) but apparently the unsuitability of Arabian timbers is somewhat disputed. Dr. Lucy Semaan of the American University of Beirut wrote her thesis on the use of Arabian trees in the Red Sea shipbuilding industry in antiquity: From tree to plank: A multidisciplinary approach to the study of wood use in boatbuilding in the Red Sea | Lucy Semaan - Academia.edu

She followed this up with another article in 2018: Timber for Ships: Considering Wood Supply for Boatbuilding in Jizan and the Farasan Islands

The articles are paywalled so I can't read further than this. Furthermore, I don't know the ranges of all of the trees she mentions or which ones she evaluates as suitable. But apparently she disagrees with Hourani on the unsuitability of Arabian wood tout court and pushes back on the idea that Arabian shipbuilders were always dependent on Indian teak, so pending further information I consider this matter disputed. 

Edited August 1 by OGHoosier

[Nevo]

49 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

I half-expect you to already have seen this (because you've already seen everything) but apparently the unsuitability of Arabian timbers is somewhat disputed. Dr. Lucy Semaan of the American University of Beirut wrote her thesis on the use of Arabian trees in the Red Sea shipbuilding industry in antiquity: From tree to plank: A multidisciplinary approach to the study of wood use in boatbuilding in the Red Sea | Lucy Semaan - Academia.edu

She followed this up with another article in 2018: Timber for Ships: Considering Wood Supply for Boatbuilding in Jizan and the Farasan Islands

The articles are paywalled so I can't read further than this. Furthermore, I don't know the ranges of all of the trees she mentions or which ones she evaluates as suitable. But apparently she disagrees with Hourani on the unsuitability of Arabian wood tout court and pushes back on the idea that Arabian shipbuilders were always dependent on Indian teak, so pending further information I consider this matter disputed. 

Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

I couldn't see her 2018 article, but her dissertation is online at https://ore.exeter.ac.uk/repository/handle/10871/18571

She writes on page 171: "Oman's wood varieties do not produce fine timber for boatbuilding (Ratnagar 1981: 40)."

Case closed

[Zosimus]

7 hours ago, Nevo said:

A couple of years ago I came across an interesting book called Arab Seafaring in the Indian Ocean in Ancient and Early Medieval Times by George F. Hourani (brother of Albert).

Two statements early in the book caught my eye:

• "Arabia does not and never did produce wood suitable for building strong seagoing ships. Neither does it contain iron for nailing them, nor is it near to any iron-producing country." (p. 5)
• "The monsoons could not be used to cross the open sea between Arabia and India and East Africa until ships could be constructed strong enough to endure their powerful blasts." (p. 6)

The east coast of Arabia was not an auspicious location for building and launching a homemade boat to sail to Guatemala.

We know with near certainty that people with Lehite-like DNA were sailing east from Oman around the same time Nephi was figuring out how to build a boat. 

Deciphering the West Eurasian Genetic Footprints in Ancient South India

No doubt Nephi would have modeled his boat after those he would have seen hugging the coast of Bountiful, carrying goods between Pattanam (India) Khor Rori and Berenike (Egypt). He would have followed those same trade routes. There are Jewish colonies within a few miles of Pattanam with pretty strong evidence of trade dating to the first temple period. 

The Book of Mormon fits just fine within history, we only need to acknowledge that the text never claims transoceanic voyages for the Jaredites, Nephites or Mulekites.

Edited August 1 by Zosimus

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I've read that it was to get back at Emma for not wanting the men to chew tobacco while meeting together because she was in charge of cleaning up the mess after it gets spit out. But it's probably false. 

Why would he back her up on the tobacco only to get revenge by barring tea and coffee?  Why not just ignore her complaints?

Edited August 1 by Calm

[blackstrap]

Let's see. 

2 Now I, Nephi, did not work the timbers after the manner which was learned by men, neither did I build the ship after the manner of men; but I did build it after the manner which the Lord had shown unto me; wherefore, it was not after the manner of men.

I could not find where Nephi needed nails. He made tools from the ore. He would probably need an adz , chisels, some type of saw maybe, a hammer? What else ?   

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Maybe God knew where there were a couple of iron meteorites that Nephi could dig up and use to build the ship.

An interesting idea….

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Personally, I'm willing to believe that God created the universe, and if He's that capable of providing for us at such a scale, it's perfectly reasonable for Him to have set aside a place with abundant materials for Nephi to find materials to build a ship, and perfectly within His capability to instruct Nephi how to build a ship capable of sailing halfway around the world.

It is not like God was intending Nephi to start a shipbuilding industry as a career.   He needed to make one ship and perhaps it was needed more to give God a way to get those like Lemuel and Laman to the needed destination and it looked seaworthy enough to uneducated eyes for them to be willing to step aboard.  Maybe the ship wouldn’t have been capable to make it across an ocean without some major extra help from God holding it together while on the seas, but it wasn’t necessary for Nephi or anyone to know that, so God didn’t enlighten them by having the ship crumble to pieces the second the last bale was unloaded.

I wonder if they used the ship to explore the area they landed it or took it apart to make shelters or whatever.

Edited August 1 by Calm

[Calm]

4 hours ago, Nevo said:

Smith, the most devout of all Christian treasure seekers, launched himself again and again through space and time in pursuit of the treasure that he increasingly came to understand Moroni was specifying—not the golden plates of a local hill but the lived history of ancient America that the plates represented." 

Are you saying Hickman sees Moroni as an illusion/dream that Joseph experienced and thought was real and therefore overtime fleshed out in his mind—perhaps through additional dreams/self induced ‘visions’ that came because of his obsession with his experience—more and more of the story, believing it was revealed to him where it was his imagination that was the ultimate source (with influences coming from his surroundings)?

[Stargazer]

11 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I've read that it was to get back at Emma for not wanting the men to chew tobacco while meeting together because she was in charge of cleaning up the mess after it gets spit out. But it's probably false. 

It seems to have occurred more than once that the Lord waited for Joseph to ask the Lord about certain things before He gave him specific instruction. For example, when Joseph and Oliver Cowdery came across the topic of baptism while translating transcribing the Book of Mormon, they went into the woods to pray about it, since it seemed very important. In response, they heard the voice of the Redeemer speak peace to them, whereupon an angel, John the Baptist, came and ordained them to the Aaronic priesthood, giving them instruction about baptism, and told them that further authority would be delivered later. 

Emma may have complained about the tobacco, but I'd bet she didn't complain about the coffee and tea.  

Edited August 1 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

10 hours ago, Frank11 said:

The weight was estimated at 40 to 60 pounds. With gold we would be at 200 pounds.

Yes, with pure gold it would weigh much more. I don't think they performed an assay to determine the carat weight of gold that was involved. Another thing, you seem to be assuming a solid block of gold in the shape of the plates. They were thinly-beaten metal, and most likely an alloy. As you have probably read elsewhere, the usual suggestion is an alloy of gold with copper called tumbaga, which was an alloy widely used in Pre-columbian America.

10 hours ago, Frank11 said:

Considering that this is an estimate, it fits quite well with tin and making something like this is not that difficult. By the way, there's someone who did it with tin as an experiment. -> https://youtu.be/lI5bJz1jNjU?si=ARHDv7jXjbTUtasK&t=474

With selected witnesses, all from the folk magic scene, the visual inspection can also be done via vision. With the Burnett letter, I see at least one counter-witness. -> https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letterbook-2/69

Yep, there's plenty of things to read and say about it all. Since the plates aren't here, no further metallurgical investigation is going to take place. You can either exercise Moroni's admonition to take it to the Lord at face value, or say to yourself, "Well, that's interesting, but I'm not convinced."

Edited August 1 by Stargazer

[Stargazer]

9 hours ago, the narrator said:

D&C 89 says nothing about chewing or smoking tobacco.

LOL! It doesn't?

DC 89:8 And again, tobacco is not for the body, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.

Now, it would take some pretty fancy phariseeing to propose that as long as you didn't actually eat it, or swallow the juice after chewing, it was perfectly OK to use tobacco. Try chewing tobacco without swallowing the juice. And how can you smoke tobacco without it getting into your mouth or lungs?

But please go for it, if that's how you feel. No skin off my nose.

[OGHoosier]

9 hours ago, Nevo said:

Thanks for bringing this to my attention.

I couldn't see her 2018 article, but her dissertation is online at https://ore.exeter.ac.uk/repository/handle/10871/18571

She writes on page 171: "Oman's wood varieties do not produce fine timber for boatbuilding (Ratnagar 1981: 40)."

Case closed

Fair enough. That leaves imported Indian wood (whether traded for or washed ashore) or some variety of wood treatment on the sycomorus which does not qualify as "after the manner of men." A bit more of a stretch. 

That said, apparently the wood trade was moving through this area pretty substantially even in the third millenium BC so it's far from impossible. Maybe some mariners carrying wood stopped for water or shipwrecked or something and Nephi made a deal. The acacia native to the area would be good for the interior components of the ship per both Ball and Semaan, so he really just needed planking.

Edit: Khor Rori might resolve this. Even if they didn't settle there, visits are possible.

Edited August 1 by OGHoosier

[Tacenda]

8 hours ago, Calm said:

Why would he back her up on the tobacco only to get revenge by barring tea and coffee?  Why not just ignore her complaints?

Well it might have been some story made up by the antis, the getting revenge on Emma for stopping the tobacco chewing story. Here's a portion from the "Saints" book that is probably more accurate, that I dug up. 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/history/saints-v1/15-holy-places?lang=eng&id=p44#p44

Found this that might answer the rumor on the men getting even by taking away tea and coffee:

”Some of the men were excessive chewers of the filthy weed, and their disgusting slobbering and spitting caused Mrs. Smith … to make the ironical remark that ‘It would be a good thing if a revelation could be had declaring the use of tobacco a sin, and commanding it's suppression.' The matter was taken up and joked about, one of the brethren suggested that the revelation should also provide for a total abstinence from tea and coffee drinking, intending this as a counter ‘dig' at the sisters.” Sure enough the subject was afterward taken up in dead earnest, and the ‘Word of Wisdom' was the result.” — David Whitmer, Des Moines Daily News, 16 Oct 1886

Edited August 1 by Tacenda