Travis Anderson vs. Aaron Shafovaloff in new discussion video

[Devobah]

 

Recently, Aaron S. had a 2 hour discussion with Travis Anderson, a well known apologist for the church (usually among missionary circles). The video is posted above for those that wish to watch the discussion. Depending on who you ask in the comments, Travis either demolished Aaron or Aaron demolished Travis. (Funny how that works, huh?). I'm not here to critique the video, but rather the abrasive style in which both parties choose to indulge in. 

I don't condone Travis's style when it comes to street debating. He likes to interrupt and act like he knows everything. Aaron does this as well. Those associated with Apologia Church like to do the same. I ran into that down here in Mesa as well. They often do the outreach around the Mesa temple. I swear I've been told I'm going to hell more at the Mesa temple than in my entire two years in Oklahoma. It gets rather frustrating. I'm not a really confrontational guy. It's just not the way I am. It's why I don't get into debates online, and why I hate this kind of attitude and behavior in general. If you want to have a discussion: then discuss. Listen. Quit interrupting and trying to make yourself sound smart. 

Truthfully I could only get through about 15 minutes of this. I like a more timed style of debate. Street work has never been my deal.

What do you all think?

[Peacefully]

15 minutes ago, Devobah said:

 

Recently, Aaron S. had a 2 hour discussion with Travis Anderson, a well known apologist for the church (usually among missionary circles). The video is posted above for those that wish to watch the discussion. Depending on who you ask in the comments, Travis either demolished Aaron or Aaron demolished Travis. (Funny how that works, huh?). I'm not here to critique the video, but rather the abrasive style in which both parties choose to indulge in. 

I don't condone Travis's style when it comes to street debating. He likes to interrupt and act like he knows everything. Aaron does this as well. Those associated with Apologia Church like to do the same. I ran into that down here in Mesa as well. They often do the outreach around the Mesa temple. I swear I've been told I'm going to hell more at the Mesa temple than in my entire two years in Oklahoma. It gets rather frustrating. I'm not a really confrontational guy. It's just not the way I am. It's why I don't get into debates online, and why I hate this kind of attitude and behavior in general. If you want to have a discussion: then discuss. Listen. Quit interrupting and trying to make yourself sound smart. 

Truthfully I could only get through about 15 minutes of this. I like a more timed style of debate. Street work has never been my deal.

What do you all think?

Reminds me of many software meetings I’ve been in, lol. 

[Anakin7]

Aaron from my understanding is a Calvinist, just so all know where he is coming from. 

[Devobah]

2 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

Aaron from my understanding is a Calvinist, just so all know where he is coming from. 

Yes. I'm aware that Aaron is a Calvinist. I always hold the belief that Calvinists should be the most humble Christians of all, but the ones you see on YouTube tend to be a bit pompous.

[Rain]

7 hours ago, Devobah said:

 

Recently, Aaron S. had a 2 hour discussion with Travis Anderson, a well known apologist for the church (usually among missionary circles). The video is posted above for those that wish to watch the discussion. Depending on who you ask in the comments, Travis either demolished Aaron or Aaron demolished Travis. (Funny how that works, huh?). I'm not here to critique the video, but rather the abrasive style in which both parties choose to indulge in. 

I don't condone Travis's style when it comes to street debating. He likes to interrupt and act like he knows everything. Aaron does this as well. Those associated with Apologia Church like to do the same. I ran into that down here in Mesa as well. They often do the outreach around the Mesa temple. I swear I've been told I'm going to hell more at the Mesa temple than in my entire two years in Oklahoma. It gets rather frustrating. I'm not a really confrontational guy. It's just not the way I am. It's why I don't get into debates online, and why I hate this kind of attitude and behavior in general. If you want to have a discussion: then discuss. Listen. Quit interrupting and trying to make yourself sound smart. 

Truthfully I could only get through about 15 minutes of this. I like a more timed style of debate. Street work has never been my deal.

What do you all think?

Assuming what the video is like from your description I see no point in it, but harm from both sides.  

I didn't realize you were in Mesa. I've never been told I was going to hell here, but I am aware of churches that do not like the church. 

[Devobah]

4 minutes ago, Rain said:

Assuming what the video is like from your description I see no point in it, but harm from both sides.  

I didn't realize you were in Mesa. I've never been told I was going to hell here, but I am aware of churches that do not like the church. 

Travis represents the worst parts of what some apologists do: degrade and ad hominem their opponents.

Apologia especially likes to say it. While the video above is from Aaron, there's an identical video from Apologia Utah.

Mesa is a far cry from what I grew up with in California. Back in California, when I said I was LDS the response was "Oh that makes sense. You're nice." Here I mention it and I get, "That doesn't make sense. You're so nice." It's disheartening.

[Anakin7]

7 hours ago, Devobah said:

Yes. I'm aware that Aaron is a Calvinist. I always hold the belief that Calvinists should be the most humble Christians of all, but the ones you see on YouTube tend to be a bit pompous.

I agree.

[snowflake]

Interesting discussion between Travis and Aaron, I would say that Aaron was much more coherent and polite. 

[Damien the Leper]

22 hours ago, Devobah said:

Apologia Church

Jeff Durbin is quite the wolf in sheep's clothing not only within Reformed/Calvinist circles in general but also toward past congregants. It doesn't help that he is a postmillennial theonomist that intersects with his love for Christian Nationalism. That is some seriously bad business.

[Damien the Leper]

17 hours ago, Anakin7 said:

Aaron from my understanding is a Calvinist, just so all know where he is coming from. 

A little more specific would be Acts 29 Reformed. 

[Damien the Leper]

15 hours ago, Devobah said:

Yes. I'm aware that Aaron is a Calvinist. I always hold the belief that Calvinists should be the most humble Christians of all, but the ones you see on YouTube tend to be a bit pompous.

Remember that modern Calvinists would likely accuse Calvin of not being Calvinist enough. However, Evangelical Calvinism is much more rational.

[LoudmouthMormon]

Man, I wish I could be as swift on my feet as either of those two folks.  I can only be that insolent, sitting down in front of a keyboard and going at the (slow) pace of my thought, supported by notes and spreadsheets and online searches of folks' arguments.   If I could have a pile of facts that I know how to find, and a pile of facts I can recall and cite at will, the first pile would be substantial, the 2nd pile wouldn't have much in it.

When face to face, I can reason with folks over principles, appeal to shared humanity, quantify where we agree and disagree.  I can't for the life of me quote scripture from memory.  

Lol.  Anyone feel like I've ever been "pugnacious in a way that's rude" on this forum?  So do I.  I'm not proud.

Edited June 24, 2024 by LoudmouthMormon

[Devobah]

4 hours ago, Damien the Leper said:

Jeff Durbin is quite the wolf in sheep's clothing not only within Reformed/Calvinist circles in general but also toward past congregants. It doesn't help that he is a postmillennial theonomist that intersects with his love for Christian Nationalism. That is some seriously bad business.

I saw a video critique for him one time that we shouldn't go around trying to get people into converting by talking about the love of Christ, but instead putting fear of hell into them. It's very off putting. It kind of reminds me of (sometimes) street corner evangelism.

[Devobah]

3 hours ago, Damien the Leper said:

Remember that modern Calvinists would likely accuse Calvin of not being Calvinist enough. However, Evangelical Calvinism is much more rational.

Any chance there's a website or a TLDR you could provide for a poor English teacher who's trying his best to save money? 😁

[Devobah]

1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

I can't for the life of me quote scripture from memory.  

Scripture references often get mixed in my head. So I see where that is coming from.

[Damien the Leper]

13 hours ago, Devobah said:

I saw a video critique for him one time that we shouldn't go around trying to get people into converting by talking about the love of Christ, but instead putting fear of hell into them. It's very off putting. It kind of reminds me of (sometimes) street corner evangelism.

Street corner is accurate. 

[Damien the Leper]

15 hours ago, Devobah said:

Any chance there's a website or a TLDR you could provide for a poor English teacher who's trying his best to save money? 😁

Let me check around. I'm sure I have some references that I've hot written down.

ETA: Here is a link to a blog post on the subject of Evangelical Calvinism vs Classical Calvinism.

Edited June 25, 2024 by Damien the Leper

[Bernard Gui]

On 6/24/2024 at 12:46 AM, Devobah said:

Yes. I'm aware that Aaron is a Calvinist. I always hold the belief that Calvinists should be the most humble Christians of all, but the ones you see on YouTube tend to be a bit pompous.

Back in the good old days there used to be a couple of Calvinists here. We had some spirited discussions.

Edited June 25, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Damien the Leper]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Back in the good old days there used to be a couple of Calvinists here. We had some spirited discussions.

Wasn't Rob Bowman one of them?

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Damien the Leper said:

Wasn't Rob Bowman one of them?

I'm thinking so, I wonder what happened to him. 

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, Damien the Leper said:

Wasn't Rob Bowman one of them?

Of the Institute for Religious Research.  I met him at  the Manti Pageant once with his busload of young adults who came to set the Mormons straight. We corresponded briefly thereafter. I don’t believe he was a Calvinist.  If I recall correctly, Anton Hein was another frequenter, and fellow whose name I can’t recall…perhaps Calm remembers it.

Edited June 25, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Anton Hein was another frequenter,

That name is not familiar to me but I have forgotten some.  Paul Hadik was a Calvinist iirc, the kind I had a lot of respect for.  He didn’t spend his time telling us we were going to hell, but setting a good example, out teaching and being a good missionary somewhere on an island in the Pacific.

Edited June 25, 2024 by Calm

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm thinking so, I wonder what happened to him. 

He left IRR for a bit, but is back with them according to wiki.  His last antimormon book looks like it was in 2020, so likely doing what he’s always been doing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M._Bowman_Jr.

One of the very old Evangelical apologists (ZLMB days) whose name I had forgotten until I read a thread David Waktz had reposted a few years ago, Dan DeMura, has apparently turned atheist.  I was curious about him and found a podcast he was on with a debate where he is still a critic, but now of his former faith and he is using a line we and others used with him when he proclaimed the Bible was the judge…what he really meant was his interpretation.  Didn’t get too far into it.  Just thought it was interesting and others who might like walk down memory lane might find it as well, though few probably recall him…maybe Teancum?

http://articulifidei.blogspot.com/2022/11/an-old-zlmb-thread-on-great-apostasy.html

https://newcityfellowship.libsyn.com/2015/10

 

 

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

That name is not familiar to me but I have forgotten some.  Paul Hadik was a Calvinist iirc, the kind I had a lot of respect for.  He didn’t spend his time telling us we were going to hell, but setting a good example, out teaching and being a good missionary somewhere on an island in the Pacific.

Thanks. There was a Calvinist here who stuck around for a while. He was pretty strident.  I can’t remember his name. I do remember comparing Calvinist plan of salvation with winning a cosmic lottery in one of our discussions.

 

Edited June 26, 2024 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

Well, we have drifted far from talking about prophecies of Christ’s visit with the Nephites, but así es la vida here.

Edited June 26, 2024 by Bernard Gui