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Apology for the Priesthood Ban / "March of Dimes Syndrome" / "Mission Creep" / "Spencer's Law"


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1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Whether you think Chloe's friends and family should encourage her in her pursuit of elective surgery that will render her paralyzed for the rest of her life.

Whether you think Chloe's friends and family should help her pay this surgeon for a procedure to permanently sever her nerves and render her paralyzed for the rest of her life.

I did not ask whether Chloe's life is hers, whether she has to decide how to live it, of what she should do.

Instead, I asked you what her friends and family should do.

Do you think Chloe's friends and family should encourage her in her pursuit of elective surgery that will render her paralyzed for the rest of her life? 

Should Chloe's friends and family help her pay this surgeon for a procedure to permanently sever her nerves and render her paralyzed for the rest of her life?

I did not ask you about how they feel.  I asked what you think they should do.

I cannot conceptualize any set of "reasons" (an interesting word choice) for a person to electively paralyze herself, particularly one who is clearly suffering from a severe mental health disorder.  "Reason" is not part of Chloe's thought processes.

"I would not support her decision."  Thank you for responding.  I would not support her either, for the reasons set forth above and below.

Why would you not support her decision?

Not really. 

Do you think Chloe's friends and family should encourage her in her pursuit of elective surgery that will render her paralyzed for the rest of her life? 

Smac: No.  I think electively paralyzing an otherwise healthy person is not an acceptable or ethical form of medical treatment.  I think her friends and family should not encourage her, and would instead do all they could to persuade her to seek help for her mental disorder.

Should Chloe's friends and family help her pay this surgeon for a procedure to permanently sever her nerves and render her paralyzed for the rest of her life?

Smac: No.  I think Chloe's friends and family should neither encourage or help pay for a medical procedure that electively paralyzes her for life.

I'm pretty clearly opposed to electively chopping off perfectly healthy body parts of a person suffering from a mental disorder, even if (especially if) that person really, really wants to cut off an leg, or render her paralyzed for life, or blind herself, or cut off her breasts, or cut off her penis, or undergo medical treatment that will render her or him sterile for life, etc.

No, I don not think that.

But feel free to elaborate.  What "situation" might exist that would justify a person in amputating a perfectly healthy leg?  Or in undergoing a surgical procedure to deliberately sever her nerves and paralyze her for life?

I haven't said that either.

Do you think there are circumstances where a minor should have healthy body parts chopped off, or undergo medical treatment rendering her sterile for life?  If so, what are these circumstances?

The most common one I see floated is the "it's better than suicide" or the "let me have this surgery or else I'll kill myself" ultimatum.  Do you subscribe to this notion?

I have not said this.  I disagree with it.

I have not said this.  I disagree with it.

Yes.  Big time.

Foreclosing one option for a minor (to undergo massively important, irreversible, life-altering, sterilizing medical procedures) does not mean there is only "one {other} answer" left.

Similarly, a person contemplating suicide has more than one alternative options.

As a public policy matter, and as regarding the elective procedures under discussion, no.

Thanks,

-Smac

You know honestly, I can't answer your posts when you fisk every single sentence, take things out of context, even break up individual sentences.  I gave what I believe to be very clear answers.  And they are clear until you slice and dice every single sentence.  When you do that, the whole post becomes a confusing and incoherent mess.  This is not a discussion, this is you trying to take things out of context, go off on tangents that are not even suggested in the context of the paragraphs i wrote.  

Edit:  I see I am not the only one who don't feel like you are able to take things in context and comment on what is actually posted.  This is not a court of law where the objective is to confuse answers given and make a mess of what the person is saying.  It is a discussion board.  Taking things in context is kinda critical in moving a conversation forward.  I wish you were capable of discussing issues rather than obscuring the points a poster makes.  But I doubt you will ever change.  You seem to thrive on creating misunderstandings and injecting completely irrelevant facts into post that have nothing to do with your comments.  Case in point is to even bring up someone who wants surgery to become paralyzed.  What the heck does that have to do with the best way to understand and deal with gender issues???

There.  Said my piece.

Edited by california boy
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19 hours ago, california boy said:

I am putting my trust that the parents of the child and the doctor responsible for the care of that child are the only ones qualified to make medical decisions

I am pretty sure that you would agree that there is a segment of those people that do NOT always make rational decisions. Some do it to gain acclaim from their woke and/or radical associates. The child do it for the excitement or praise from people around him/her/it. The point is surgical mutilation or chemical castration are IRREVERSIBLE and a lifelong desolation of abominations. @smac97 has documented numerous examples that call into question their poor judgement.

This made me think of massive holocaust of certain religions in the past. Such as Baal requiring parents to sacrifice their children or making them walk thru fire. Terah sacrificing his son Abram (Abraham) being a well-known example.

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19 minutes ago, longview said:

I am pretty sure that you would agree that there is a segment of those people that do NOT always make rational decisions. Some do it to gain acclaim from their woke and/or radical associates. The child do it for the excitement or praise from people around him/her/it. The point is surgical mutilation or chemical castration are IRREVERSIBLE and a lifelong desolation of abominations. @smac97 has documented numerous examples that call into question their poor judgement.

This made me think of massive holocaust of certain religions in the past. Such as Baal requiring parents to sacrifice their children or making them walk thru fire. Terah sacrificing his son Abram (Abraham) being a well-known example.

Posts like this are what make this issue difficult to talk about let alone legislate. People talk about “caring for children” but their religious hatred of trans people existing makes it hard to take any of their arguments at face value. I do think there are people arguing from good faith to restrict access to this procedure, and I think sensible precautions could be agreed upon by most, but it’s hard to separate facts from fear mongering when it’s hard to tell if their real motivation is like Longview here. 

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9 hours ago, bluebell said:

Are we really wanting to argue though that the child should always get what they want?  Children are considered minors for a reason.  What they want isn't always what is best for them.

Agreed.

By that logic minor children should be able to smoke, drink, use legal drugs and sext as long their parents are cool with it.

Edited by ZealouslyStriving
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1 hour ago, longview said:

I am pretty sure that you would agree that there is a segment of those people that do NOT always make rational decisions. Some do it to gain acclaim from their woke and/or radical associates. The child do it for the excitement or praise from people around him/her/it. The point is surgical mutilation or chemical castration are IRREVERSIBLE and a lifelong desolation of abominations. @smac97 has documented numerous examples that call into question their poor judgement.

This made me think of massive holocaust of certain religions in the past. Such as Baal requiring parents to sacrifice their children or making them walk thru fire. Terah sacrificing his son Abram (Abraham) being a well-known example.

Of course there are always those that make bad decisions.  But for the most part, I think parents try to always have the best intentions in helping their children make the best decisions for their happiness.  I also believe that having a doctor, a neutral party in the decision process helps parents from going off the rails.  And requiring a course to educate and test for understanding of the issues of those involved in making those decisions helps everyone make an informed and educated decision.

We also have to acknowledge that politicians and people reporting on the internet don't always make the best decisions either.  This is such an individual decision,  there is no answer that works for the best at all times.  By far, the last place to base a decision on is random people posting on the internet who have no idea about what the child might need that is best for them.  

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3 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

but their religious hatred of trans people existing

You are slandering people who are feeling deep concern for the well-being of children and do grieve for their butchered bodies not being able to procreate and make a family unit.

2 hours ago, california boy said:

 I also believe that having a doctor, a neutral party in the decision process

It is difficult to be neutral when the medical/industrial complex has made gender transitioning a billion dollar gravy train. It is unconscionable for many radical public school teachers to secretly groom impressionable children into taking on dangerous alternative lifestyles.

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1 hour ago, longview said:

You are slandering people who are feeling deep concern for the well-being of children and do grieve for their butchered bodies not being able to procreate and make a family unit.

It is difficult to be neutral when the medical/industrial complex has made gender transitioning a billion dollar gravy train. It is unconscionable for many radical public school teachers to secretly groom impressionable children into taking on dangerous alternative lifestyles.

This. 

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8 hours ago, longview said:

You are slandering people who are feeling deep concern for the well-being of children and do grieve for their butchered bodies not being able to procreate and make a family unit.

It is difficult to be neutral when the medical/industrial complex has made gender transitioning a billion dollar gravy train. It is unconscionable for many radical public school teachers to secretly groom impressionable children into taking on dangerous alternative lifestyles.

This.  +1.

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1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

So you completely support adults as they transition then? I had no idea. I’m sorry. 

I do NOT support the butchering of children. But you knew that. Beware the derangement of wokism. 😢

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7 minutes ago, longview said:

I do NOT support the butchering of children. But you knew that. Beware the derangement of wokism. 😢

Is it the transitioning itself, or the age that happens, that is the problem in your eyes?

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12 minutes ago, longview said:

I do NOT support the butchering of children. But you knew that. Beware the derangement of wokism. 😢

Actually, I think your “care for children” is a thinly disguised veil for your religious disgust towards those made differently from you. But nice dodge of the question.

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I'm gonna be honest. But i'm argee with @longview  I also find that this is not normal that this kind of matters get forced into the mind of a kid. Let alone that a surgery like that is negotiable with a CHILD. When i was a kid i didn't even know that i was gay, let alone that i was worried about myself or i really was a male or a female. Let a kid be a kid. 

Also...that i disapprove of this matter has nothing to do with the fact that i'm from the LDS community. My boyfiend has no religious background and he also finds this not normal.

To me this smells like woke. 

Edited by Dario_M
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22 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Is it the transitioning itself, or the age that happens, that is the problem in your eyes?

For the most part, both. If the person happens to be a faithful member of the Church, hopefully that person will strive to live the Gospel and being chaste and walk with God in all circumstances. Trusting that God will make things right in this life or the next world. In the end there will be incredible joy unimaginable.

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10 minutes ago, Dario_M said:

To me this smells like woke. 

Thank you , Dario. Big upvote to you!

The scary thing about woke is the hysteria and the herd mentality of rushing to try the latest social engineering fad.

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34 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Actually, I think your “care for children” is a thinly disguised veil for your religious disgust towards those made differently from you. But nice dodge of the question.

Oh no! You have passed judgement on me. What method of execution will be imposed? 😵

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1 hour ago, longview said:

Thank you , Dario. Big upvote to you!

The scary thing about woke is the hysteria and the herd mentality of rushing to try the latest social engineering fad.

@Dario - as you are wanting to better your English I wanted to share a little about the word "woke". 

I'm getting this from Wikipedia as it makes it easier to explain. It started out as being aware of racial prejudice and discrimination.  Later it was also used for things like sexism and LGBT.

Since then it has been used as a pejorative against 1 political party against another.

So depending on who is using it then it can have very different conotations - one recognizing the struggles of people and the other other expressing contempt for someone or some line of thinking.

 

Edited by Rain
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20 minutes ago, smac97 said:

SeekingUnderstanding calls this "religious disgust" and "religious hatred."  It is not.  It is concern for my fellow man.

Thanks,

-Smac

Since your reading comprehension is exceedingly poor, I called a post that compared trans surgery to child sacrifice and labeling it as a "desolation of abominations" as religions hatred. And correctly identified the religious disgust behind it. I have no ideal if religious disgust drives *your ideology here.

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25 minutes ago, longview said:

Thank you , Dario. Big upvote to you!

The scary thing about woke is the hysteria and the herd mentality of rushing to try the latest social engineering fad.

Yeah i'm so agree with you. I actually find this whole new fashion a bit sick to be honest. And it's everywhere now. In the newest movies, in the newest games, just everywhere. And i don't like it at all. I don't watch new movies anymore. Because of the content. It's sad how this world has become. Sometimes it really make me cry. Because i can remember the good old days. The 90s the begin 2000s. Those where such beautiful times. Simple, happiness was self-evident. But now...you need to do this and that and a dangerous operation. And after that you maybe. Maybe can be happy. 

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