bluebell Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 36 minutes ago, ce4 said: To: ZealouslyStriving I do not know if inhaled tobacco interferes with the division of muscle cells. Thank you bluebell for doing that research. I narrow it down to this question: Do you understand the Word of Wisdom? To explain the question, I suppose I need someone good with English, law, and logic. But I will be happy to take what I can get. Opinions are welcome. Does the question mean: Do you understand (all about) the Word of Wisdom? Or does the question mean: Do you understand (at least one thing about) the Word of Wisdom? Or does the question mean something else? I have assumed it means all. This is what the church says about the Word of Wisdom: God has revealed the Word of Wisdom as a commandment for the physical and spiritual benefit of His children. The Prophet Joseph Smith received this revelation on February 27, 1833, and it is now recorded in section 89 of the Doctrine and Covenants. In the revelation, the Lord teaches healthy practices. He also prohibits some substances that are not good for the human body. In the Word of Wisdom, the Lord declared that the following foods are good: Fruits and wholesome herbs, including vegetables, which should be used “with prudence and thanksgiving” (see Doctrine and Covenants 89:10–11). The flesh “of beasts and of the fowls of the air,” which is “to be used sparingly” (see Doctrine and Covenants 89:12–13). Grains such as wheat, rice, and oats, which are “the staff of life” (see Doctrine and Covenants 89:14–17). The Lord revealed in the Word of Wisdom that the following substances are harmful: Alcoholic drinks (see Doctrine and Covenants 89:5–7). Tobacco (see Doctrine and Covenants 89:8). Tea and coffee (see Doctrine and Covenants 89:9; latter-day prophets have taught that the term “hot drinks,” as written in this verse, refers to tea and coffee). The Lord promises increased health, wisdom, knowledge, and protection to those who obey the Word of Wisdom (see Doctrine and Covenants 89:18–21). Since its introduction, prophets have taught about the importance of following the Word of Wisdom. In addition, they have taught Church members to avoid substances that impair judgment or are harmful or highly addictive, whether legal or illegal. For example, vaping, the misuse of prescription drugs, and the recreational use of marijuana violate Church teachings (see General Handbook: Serving in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints [2020], 38.7.8; “Statement on the Word of Wisdom,” Aug. 15, 2019, newsroom.ChurchofJesusChrist.org). Prophets have taught that we should also follow healthy practices such as nutritious eating, regular exercise, proper hygiene, and getting sufficient rest. If you are aware of what the church teaches about the Word of Wisdom, and if you understand that to obey the word of wisdom you must abstain from coffee, tea, tobacco, illegal drugs, and alcohol, then (in my opinion) you understand the word of wisdom and can answer yes to the first part of that question. If you are actually abstaining from those things listed, then you can also answer yes to the second part. 1
the narrator Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 15 hours ago, Pyreaux said: The "Word of Wisdom" he's talking about is a revised version that specifically prohibits alcohol, tobacco, coffee (any "ccinos") and tea (Camellia sinensis, most certainly black tea, if not also green and white tea), and illegal drugs (marijuana, etc) without a medical reason. The problem is that the Church just needs to be more open that the official and authoritative contemporary Word of Wisdom is both largely disconnected from the canonized Word of Wisdom in the D&C and has no specific claim of revelatory basis. 1
the narrator Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 (edited) 16 minutes ago, bluebell said: Alcoholic drinks (see Doctrine and Covenants 89:5–7). Tobacco (see Doctrine and Covenants 89:8). Tea and coffee (see Doctrine and Covenants 89:9; latter-day prophets have taught that the term “hot drinks,” as written in this verse, refers to tea and coffee). Except D&C 89:7-9 are not at all about casual consumption. It's referring to medicinal use. This is made pretty clear with the instructions on tobacco: nothing is said about smoking or chewing tobacco; instead it cautions against topical use ("not for the body"--except for cattle) and ingestion ("neither for the belly"). Hot drinks are similarly discussed within the context of medicinal use, reflecting common medical prescriptions related to the humor theory of medicine where persons were told to immerse themselves in or consume liquids at extreme temperatures--hot drinks being coffee, tea, and chocolate; the latter being a luxury was likely the reason why Hyrum did not include it in his definition. Strong drinks (aka, stronger than beer, the approved [and promoted!] alcoholic beverage of the revealed WofW) are approved for washing but not for consuming. This all reflects the changing medical landscape of early 19th century America (wherein each of these can be seen in newspapers of the time), as well as Joseph's own concerns. The prohibition of alcohol ingestion for medical use falls right in line with the story of his refusing alcohol for his childhood leg surgery, and the Smith family believed that Alvin's death was due to malpractice after he was prescribed calomel for purging (which is why ingesting tobacco was also being prescribed.) Edited May 13, 2024 by the narrator
the narrator Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 15 minutes ago, the narrator said: The problem is that the Church just needs to be more open that the official and authoritative contemporary Word of Wisdom is both largely disconnected from the canonized Word of Wisdom in the D&C and has no specific claim of revelatory basis. See also tithing, among a myriad of other demands.
bluebell Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 5 minutes ago, the narrator said: Except D&C 89:7-9 are not at all about casual consumption. It's referring to medicinal use. This is made pretty clear with the instructions on tobacco: nothing is said about smoking or chewing tobacco; instead it cautions against topical use ("not for the body"--except for cattle) and ingestion ("neither for the belly"). Hot drinks are similarly discussed within the context of medicinal use, reflecting common medical prescriptions related to the humor theory of medicine where persons were told to immerse themselves in or consume liquids at extreme temperatures--hot drinks being coffee, tea, and chocolate; the latter being a luxury was likely the reason why Hyrum did not include it in his definition. Strong drinks (aka, stronger than beer, the approved [and promoted!] alcoholic beverage of the revealed WofW) are approved for washing but not for consuming. This all reflects the changing medical landscape of early 19th century America (wherein each of these can be seen in newspapers of the time), as well as Joseph's own concerns. The prohibition of alcohol ingestion for medical use falls right in line with the story of his refusing alcohol for his childhood leg surgery, and the Smith family believed that Alvin's death was due to malpractice after he was prescribed calomel for purging (which is why ingesting tobacco was also being prescribed.) People can interpret it however they want, but that's not how the church teaches it or interprets it. When it comes to getting a temple recommend, it seems pretty clear that the church is asking if you understand how it is currently taught by the church and whether or not you are obeying it as it is taught. 2
the narrator Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 8 minutes ago, bluebell said: but that's not how the church teaches it Yeah, and that's the problem. The Church teaches that the contemporary WofW is D&C 89 and claims no revelation beyond that: Quote The Word of Wisdom is a law of health revealed by the Lord for the physical and spiritual benefit of His children. On February 27, 1833, as recorded in section 89 of the Doctrine and Covenants, the Lord revealed which foods are good for us to eat and which substances are not good for the human body.
rpn Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 The bishop is constrained, he can only ask the Temple Recommend questions that are established. I'd suggest you go read in "Preach My Gospel" what missionaries teach and then answer the question by saying, "I understand everything the missionaries taught me". Yes I live those teachings. 2
bluebell Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 41 minutes ago, the narrator said: Yeah, and that's the problem. The Church teaches that the contemporary WofW is D&C 89 and claims no revelation beyond that: I don't consider it to be a problem, and church leaders don't seem to see it as a problem either. I can see why some might and have no desire to argue with them or try to change their minds, but that doesn't really have much of a bearing on what the church means during a temple recommend interview. 2
Calm Posted May 13, 2024 Posted May 13, 2024 3 hours ago, ce4 said: One viewpoint of the Word of Wisdom that is unclear to me is medical. What aspects do you see as medical (sincerely curious, I have had health issues all my life plus like biology, chemistry and physics and have studied nutrition and other medical topics quite a lot, find them all as interesting as psychology).
ce4 Posted May 14, 2024 Author Posted May 14, 2024 To: Pyreaux No, I have not been showing the bishops and missionaries articles concerning the health benefits of tea. Except I did show one package of herbal tea. Also, you seem to define all tea as bad and has caffeine, this definition is not correct. But thank you for sharing your thoughts. To bluebell: Yes, I already know and understand and agree with everything you said. And you gave a direct answer to my question: "if you understand that to obey the word of wisdom you must abstain from coffee, tea, tobacco, illegal drugs, and alcohol, then (in my opinion) you understand the word of wisdom and can answer yes to the first part of that question." Thank you. Problem is, you are not my Bishop. So why did bishop not say this? I can show him your quote sometime. And why is this quote not in official church literature? This makes me worry that there is something wrong with it. You also said this: "the church is asking if you understand how it is currently taught by the church". If your statement is true, it should be easy to give a Question-Answer test. Bishop did not. To rpn: Bishop asked more than the established questions. I brought that to his attention, he replied that he does that to everyone. To: Calm I use the term "medical viewpoint" to mean how a medical expert would apply his knowledge to word of wisdom. And it sounds like you are a medical expert. Not being one myself, I find it hard to understand your question.
ZealouslyStriving Posted May 14, 2024 Posted May 14, 2024 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/word-of-wisdom?lang=eng
Calm Posted May 14, 2024 Posted May 14, 2024 (edited) 2 hours ago, ce4 said: Except I did show one package of herbal tea. Herbal tea is not really tea, but an infusion. There is no restriction in using it in the WoW. Anyone who says so needs to check the handbook. However, some herbal drinks have caffeine, like Yerba Mate. And sometimes caffeine gets added to ‘healthy’ energy drinks. Always wise to check labels. Black, green, and white (which is what Pyreaux was referring to) do have caffeine in them, but the WoW does not state caffeine is the reason we don’t drink tea or coffee, that is someone’s reasoning out that got adopted by church culture, but you were never not allowed to go to the temple for drinking Pepsi unless you had a bishop who went rogue. Plus when some bishops started giving recommends to those who were drinking decaffeinated coffee, Salt Lake issues a directive any coffee was out of bounds. There are quite a few health benefits believe to be found with green tea. But the WoW is more than just a health code and it’s not like you can’t get similar benefits from other foods. Caffeine can be okay for those who are healthy. Good idea to avoid if you have any sleep disorders as it can make those worse,…unless you have to drive or stay awake for some reason. It takes usually about 10 hours to clear enough out of the body, so you shouldn’t drink it in the afternoon or later or it will interfere with the quality of your sleep. However it can take longer for people, for me it takes about 20 hours before it’s gone enough I can sleep even in small amounts….except it may knock me out in about an hour after I drink it for a short bit if I am really tired, but not long enough to feel rested or to cover the not sleeping to come. These days, considering how few get the sleep that is best for their health, avoiding caffeine is not a bad idea and could be seen if so inspired as part of a person’s personal WoW. Because sleep disorders run in my family and in my husband’s, I try to educate my family about caffeine and encourage them to avoid it, but most are willing to pay the cost. Alcohol btw has a long enough presence in your body it will pretty much always affect the quality of sleep. I heard one sleep expert joke you should consume any alcohol at breakfast, but he then said it was obviously a bad joke. He suggested saving alcohol, if you had to use it at all, for very rare social occasions. Edited May 14, 2024 by Calm 1
ce4 Posted May 14, 2024 Author Posted May 14, 2024 Thank you, those are all nice things to know. But they are going slightly off topic. I guess you know my question, but there is no good answer for it. I guess you answered it the best you could.
Calm Posted May 14, 2024 Posted May 14, 2024 1 minute ago, ce4 said: Thank you, those are all nice things to know. But they are going slightly off topic. I guess you know my question, but there is no good answer for it. I guess you answered it the best you could. Your bishop said “no” for his own reasons which none of us can know and only guess at. The only person who can answer your question on why your bishop said no is him. As far as understanding the WoW, it matters what you are labeling the WOW…the revelation, the policy, the restrictions, the personal interpretations. Some of those are easy to understand, others harder. 1
bluebell Posted May 14, 2024 Posted May 14, 2024 11 hours ago, ce4 said: To: Pyreaux No, I have not been showing the bishops and missionaries articles concerning the health benefits of tea. Except I did show one package of herbal tea. Also, you seem to define all tea as bad and has caffeine, this definition is not correct. But thank you for sharing your thoughts. To bluebell: Yes, I already know and understand and agree with everything you said. And you gave a direct answer to my question: "if you understand that to obey the word of wisdom you must abstain from coffee, tea, tobacco, illegal drugs, and alcohol, then (in my opinion) you understand the word of wisdom and can answer yes to the first part of that question." Thank you. Problem is, you are not my Bishop. So why did bishop not say this? I can show him your quote sometime. And why is this quote not in official church literature? This makes me worry that there is something wrong with it. You also said this: "the church is asking if you understand how it is currently taught by the church". If your statement is true, it should be easy to give a Question-Answer test. Bishop did not. To rpn: Bishop asked more than the established questions. I brought that to his attention, he replied that he does that to everyone. To: Calm I use the term "medical viewpoint" to mean how a medical expert would apply his knowledge to word of wisdom. And it sounds like you are a medical expert. Not being one myself, I find it hard to understand your question. You’d have to ask your bishop, which would be the best thing to do if you really want to know since it’s the only way to get that information. 1
Pyreaux Posted May 14, 2024 Posted May 14, 2024 20 hours ago, ce4 said: To: Pyreaux No, I have not been showing the bishops and missionaries articles concerning the health benefits of tea. Except I did show one package of herbal tea. Also, you seem to define all tea as bad and has caffeine, this definition is not correct. But thank you for sharing your thoughts. Well, that's a horse of a different color! Finally. No one here said anything against herbal tea. That is a big difference. Non-tea drinkers like Bishops and Missionaries may not know the difference. WoW prohibits the tea leaf, not herbal teas, broths or soups. 1
MustardSeed Posted May 14, 2024 Posted May 14, 2024 (edited) 1 hour ago, Pyreaux said: WoW prohibits the tea l Edited May 14, 2024 by MustardSeed I CFRd myself. I got nothin. 1
Rain Posted May 15, 2024 Posted May 15, 2024 On 5/12/2024 at 9:20 PM, ce4 said: Bishop asks: Do you understand the word of wisdom? If answer is no, interview ends in failure. If answer is yes, is the applicant lying? I answered no. I admit I do not know everything. Do some other people know everything? I later asked someone (missionaries) who answered yes, and I found they know less about it than I do. For example, the definition of tea. The word of wisdom has many viewpoints: literal, historical, and medical for a start. So what am I missing? What am I being asked? Truly, the only way to know is through him. We can't read his mind. I know, frustrating, because it sounds like you have asked. By posting here did you really want to know the answer to that question, were you just expressing frustration or was there something else you wanted to know? Sometimes it's hard to know if questions are rhetorical or not. 2
brownbear Posted July 5, 2024 Posted July 5, 2024 On 5/12/2024 at 11:20 PM, ce4 said: Bishop asks: Do you understand the word of wisdom? If answer is no, interview ends in failure. If answer is yes, is the applicant lying? I answered no. I admit I do not know everything. Do some other people know everything? I later asked someone (missionaries) who answered yes, and I found they know less about it than I do. For example, the definition of tea. The word of wisdom has many viewpoints: literal, historical, and medical for a start. So what am I missing? What am I being asked? I think it would mean "Do you understand the word of wisdom as is traditionally interpreted and explained in current church publications?"
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