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A Psychologist Explains why Science does not communicate with Religion or Philosophy


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15 hours ago, CV75 said:

are non-everlasting and so eventually nullified.

Why are they eventually nullified?

15 hours ago, CV75 said:

RE: Q2, to answer you best, you would need to be open to exploring a covenant relationship with God. Or re-exploring one you may have had. You may wish to review some of the basics from the last General Conference for some of the real tangible benefits available to everyone, namely a personal endowment of Christ’s power and help obtained in the world to no other degree: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2024/04/57nelson?lang=eng , and the three talks with “Covenant(s)” in their title.

Why would it work better a second time? Is 40 years of trying not enough? How many years does it take? If 40 years isn't enough, does that seem like a good method that God has designed?

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1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Why are they eventually nullified?

Why would it work better a second time? Is 40 years of trying not enough? How many years does it take? If 40 years isn't enough, does that seem like a good method that God has designed?

The nullification is just a matter of limitations. It comes from the parties involved because they lack the power and ability to act and keep promises the same way exalted beings, sealed to God, do. They cannot help it because their personal, mortal limitations have not been offset by divine grace. But a simper answer is that they are not sealed in the first place, rendering their pacts nullifiable and inevitably nullified. I'm not asking you to believe this, but I am explaining it at your request and suggesting a way for you to "seek understanding" about it.

I do not know why a covenant relationship with God, which is what keeps all other covenants in tact, did not work for you. Maybe "Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him..." Maybe your approach to "seeking understanding" may need to be reworked "that the works of God should be made manifest" in you.

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On 5/13/2024 at 12:23 PM, Teancum said:

Like I said I like this approach but this is really not what most religions that make truth claims about how we should live, what we should believe and so on, and the impact that has on us if we really to continue after this life, believe or teach.

This is a perfect example of what this thread is about.

https://mitpress.mit.edu/9780262048804/the-blind-spot/

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16 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Why are they eventually nullified?

Why would it work better a second time? Is 40 years of trying not enough? How many years does it take? If 40 years isn't enough, does that seem like a good method that God has designed?

40 years?

How long does it take to become Perfect as our Father is?

Stop looking at pictures of the world and feel the EXPERIENCE of feeling.

Contemporary art taught me a lot- now I see the world differently.  See meaning.  See symbolically. See the EXPERIENCE within you, rather than the picture.

For me, art can be "scripture".

https://www.moma.org/calendar/galleries/5115

Incidentally there is a reason that Postmodernism and "abstract art" have happened in the same era- because the correspondence theory of truth simply does not work.

Squiggles on a page cannot "represent" emotion or even MEANING- to create emotions, one must be symbolic in words or painting or any visual art.

I see scripture that way as well.  It is never "literal" and I see that as a great mistake to see it that way. 

It presents a spiritual journey to God and holiness.

Immerse yourself in the journey, not the destination- the journey IS the destination.

 

 

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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1 hour ago, the narrator said:

Bring together representatives of each understanding and have them stack a pile of wood in front of them. They each pray for God to set the pile in front of them on fire. Whoever gets theirs to light has the correct understanding.

I recall an incident where some scout leaders brought some chemicals to a scout camp to duplicate that "miracle" from the OT- I can't remember the reference and am too lazy to look it up.

They put together some wood and poured "water" (chemical 1) on the wood, and then put more "water" from a different container (chemical 2) and suddenly the two chemicals reacted and caused the wood to catch on fire.

The results: more little boy literalists, who are probably now critics of the church for its literalism.

I thought the whole thing was absolutely abominable.  To me it was an act of "spiritual" child abuse

They may now want to know "why it doesn't happen for me?"

Edited by mfbukowski
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On 5/8/2024 at 6:14 AM, Anonymous Mormon said:

But, if my limited understanding is correct, light can change between a particle or a wave depending on whether or not it is observed / measured.

I wonder if a similar concept would apply to other spiritual matter (and spiritual matters), that it is physically impossible to measure and quantify, because the very act of measuring it changes its state.

The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle!

You are absolutely on the right track!  The key to it all, IMO, is below in my Rorty quotes- we must understand that ALL we CAN know about "reality"  HAS to be created from a human perspective, because what we are actually seeing/ hearing!   Every word, every perception, every word spoken for ALL HISTORY including ALL PERCEIVED by "SCIENTISTS", written and described are CREATED by A HUMAN MIND.

THINK about it!!!   What non- human experience do we KNOW ABOUt?   Even God is a super-human but a human nevertheless BEFORE he was deified.

We CANNOT get outside our bodies - until we see "face to face", but now we are looking at the world through the MIRROR ("glass darkly") of what limits the living human brain.

It's like having permanently tinted sunglasses on, and trying to discuss colors we have never seen as they are!!

It's not that the LIGHT changes, but its PERCEPTION depends on how it is perceived and tested.

So yes!

And describing such vague sensations as the Still Small Voice, that varies in so many ways?   And then having a person trying to "describe" what he THINKS he heard from someone like a prophet-  does that even have a CHANCE of being described correctly by someone who has never had the experience??

It's like a blind man trying to comprehend the "urgency" of a red sign, or the bright attention-getting burst of light of the color of yellow.   How do you describe it to anyone who has not experienced it?

Not possible.   Good for you!!  Think about this and repeat it mentally until it becomes part of you!

Rorty:

Quote

 

To say that the world is out there, that it is not our creation, is to say, with common sense, that most things in space and time are the effects of causes which do not include human mental states.  To say that truth is not out there is simply to say that where there are no sentences, there is no truth, that sentences are elements of human languages, and that human languages are human creations.

     Truth cannot be out there- cannot exist independently of the human mind- because sentences cannot so exist, or be out there.  The world is out there, but descriptions of the world are not.  Only descriptions of the world can be true or false.  The world on its own- unaided by the describing activities of human beings- cannot."   Richard Rorty- Contingency Irony and Solidarity, P 5.

 

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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On 5/14/2024 at 10:49 AM, ZealouslyStriving said:

Go back and reread my posts. Living with, yes, as those there will be separate and single. Friendships obviously are possible, if they end up where you are at. But like I said, friendship with the wife of your mortal sojourn is a far cry from enjoying a martial relationship with her.

So if both me and my apostate wife end up in the telestial kingdom who is to stop us from engaging in the same type of relationship we have here in this life? Keep in mind what the Book of Mormon says about the resurrection.  We are restored to our perfect form.  I assume that means exactly what it says.

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45 minutes ago, Teancum said:

So if both me and my apostate wife end up in the telestial kingdom who is to stop us from engaging in the same type of relationship we have here in this life? Keep in mind what the Book of Mormon says about the resurrection.  We are restored to our perfect form.  I assume that means exactly what it says.

Telestial relationships are for the telestial kingdom. What type of telestial relationship are you engaged in?

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1 hour ago, Teancum said:

I really have no idea what that means.

You used the term "telestial," so I figured you knew what you meant. What did you mean?

You also said you engage in a type of relationship. Can you describe it?

Edited by CV75
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4 minutes ago, CV75 said:

You used the term "telestial," so I figured you knew what you meant. What did you mean?

You also said you engage in a type of relationship. Can you describe it?

I know what telestial means and I said if we are both there what is to stop us from engaging in the SAME TYPE of relationship we have here. Meaning we are married, we are friends, we spend time with each other, we have sexual relationships and so on.  You know. Marriage.

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58 minutes ago, Teancum said:

I know what telestial means and I said if we are both there what is to stop us from engaging in the SAME TYPE of relationship we have here. Meaning we are married, we are friends, we spend time with each other, we have sexual relationships and so on.  You know. Marriage.

All “covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity…are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead.”

While all such marriage contracts have an end when the spouses are dead, I think it reasonable to assume that some resurrected people in the telestial kingdom try to imitate them. But any arrangement they can come up with are non-everlasting and so eventually peter out. This is a matter of personal limitations. They lack the power and ability to act and keep promises the same way exalted beings, sealed to God, do. They cannot help it because the personal, mortal limitations they carry with them into the telestial world have not been offset by divine grace.

Don't tell me after a few decades of unrestrained choice of beautiful people, and with impunity, you or your spouse wouldn't succumb to cheat! Marriage can be like that and the spouses are OK with it. I don't think anyone with stop that sort of thing from going on in the telestial kingdom, but I can see a lot of burnt-out people!

Edited by CV75
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4 minutes ago, CV75 said:

All “covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity…are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead.”

Yea so? Words to justify polygamy essentially. I discount them substantially.

4 minutes ago, CV75 said:

While all such marriage contracts have an end when the spouses are dead, I think it reasonable to assume that some resurrected people in the telestial kingdom try to imitate them. But any arrangement they can come up with are non-everlasting and so eventually peter out. This is a matter of personal limitations. They lack the power and ability to act and keep promises the same way exalted beings, sealed to God, do. They cannot help it because the personal, mortal limitations they carry with them into the telestial world have not been offset by divine grace.

If we are autonomous creatures in the resurrection and we are resurrected to our full physical state we are in now it seems plausible to assume we could have whatever relations we choose and with whomever we choose.  I suppose God could remove the emotional desire or as JFS said, the organs that one needs to have sexual relations.

 

4 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Don't tell me after a few decades of unrestrained choice of beautiful people, and with impunity, you or your spouse wouldn't succumb to cheat! Marriage can be like that and the spouses are OK with it. I don't think anyone with stop that sort of thing from going on in the telestial kingdom, but I can see a lot of burnt-out people!

I have been married 43 years this year and have had no desire to cheat on my wife. Why would  I do so in the telestial kingdom if she were there with me.  You could do the same in the celestial kingdom as well. Really what a nonsensical argument. 🙄

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14 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Yea so? Words to justify polygamy essentially. I discount them substantially.

If we are autonomous creatures in the resurrection and we are resurrected to our full physical state we are in now it seems plausible to assume we could have whatever relations we choose and with whomever we choose.  I suppose God could remove the emotional desire or as JFS said, the organs that one needs to have sexual relations.

 

I have been married 43 years this year and have had no desire to cheat on my wife. Why would  I do so in the telestial kingdom if she were there with me.  You could do the same in the celestial kingdom as well. Really what a nonsensical argument. 🙄

Obviously in your mind there is no one to stop you!

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10 minutes ago, Teancum said:

This seems like a petty snarky and smug remark.

 It seems like he is projecting here. No one has yet to describe the benefit of a "celestial" relationship vs a "terrestial" one. I take that back. I guess according to CV75, all contracts last as long as the parties want them too. Sounds good to me. In a celestial relationship, God forces you to be in relationships whether you want to or not? Or he just changes you to remove your agency in choosing? What kind of relationship can exist in such an environment where choice is removed? Not one that I would want.

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15 minutes ago, Teancum said:

This seems like a petty snarky and smug remark.

No, you asked who is to stop you from continuing your relationship after death. I said, I don't think anyone will stop you from trying, and then that you don't seem to think there is anyone to stop you anyway!

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51 minutes ago, Teancum said:

If we are autonomous creatures in the resurrection and we are resurrected to our full physical state we are in now it seems plausible to assume we could have whatever relations we choose and with whomever we choose.  I suppose God could remove the emotional desire or as JFS said, the organs that one needs to have sexual relations.

The only thing that makes sense to me is we are taught that we are purified (pay for our own sins if we refuse to accept the atonement) before we enter any kingdom, therefore any unrighteous desires will be gone by the time we get to our kingdoms.  Even if we don’t have the desire to be righteous, we will by default have no desire to sin.  Our natures will have changed through the process of being cleansed of our sins.  One might phrase it as God removing the desire, but I see it as learning changing behaviour, an internal choice rather than external force.  God is the provider of the opportunity to change.and we get stuck there, it seems, until we do change though.

My guess is part of the cleansing process is knowingly experiencing for ourselves the pain (short and longterm) we caused ourselves and others as well as seen all the impact our sins have had throughout time (through the children of those we hurt being affected by their parents’ behaviour as well as our own children who watched us sin, the whole ripple effect). I think it’s possible we ‘live’ their lives even as the ultimate empathic experience.***  By the time we are bright and shiny, we’ve thoroughly learned that the consequences of sin aren’t worth it, so we have no more desire to sin just based on reasoning.

Now why it would be a sin to have a long term, loving committed relationship between Telestial beings is not something I have any answer for as that seems like it would be a healthy pasttime as it would help them be righteous, loving and caring for another.

The organ removal makes no sense at all if our mortal biological frame has any reference to our eternal version AND gender/biological sex is eternal as is taught by the Church and I believe.

***https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Inner_Light_(Star_Trek:_The_Next_Generation)

 

Edited by Calm
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7 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

 It seems like he is projecting here. No one has yet to describe the benefit of a "celestial" relationship vs a "terrestial" one. I take that back. I guess according to CV75, all contracts last as long as the parties want them too. Sounds good to me. In a celestial relationship, God forces you to be in relationships whether you want to or not? Or he just changes you to remove your agency in choosing? What kind of relationship can exist in such an environment where choice is removed? Not one that I would want.

If you would read the talks I linked, you would have the opportunity to gain a correct understanding of our teachings concerning agency in these sealing relationships. Just the opposite from the way you ask about (project :D !) them here.

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47 minutes ago, Teancum said:

If we are autonomous creatures in the resurrection and we are resurrected to our full physical state we are in now it seems plausible to assume we could have whatever relations we choose and with whomever we choose.  I suppose God could remove the emotional desire or as JFS said, the organs that one needs to have sexual relations.

I missed this gem! You've been married 43 years and still think sex is all about the "full physical state," and not the connection of mental states? I am saying that the mental states of telestial people cannot sustain a long-term marriage relationship. No one will stop them from trying, but they just don't have what it takes.

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