The Book of Mormon: A Latter-day Guide to Manhood

[ZealouslyStriving]

Last year as I was reading through the Book of Mormon again, I was inspired to really notice all the father-son(s) dynamics, I then realized that beyond being the "keystone of our religion" and our "latter-day survival guide", (it can be used as a "How To Manual For Manhood"). The Book of Mormon addresses:

*how to be a good husband (Lehi)

*how to be a good father (Lehi, Jacob, Enos, King Benjamin, Alma(s), Helaman ben Alma, etc...)

*how to be a good mentor (Captain Helaman)

*how to be a good friend/companion (Ammon ben Mosiah, Alma ben Alma)

*how to be a good leader and citizen (Chief Captain Moroni)

Edited April 20, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[bluebell]

All scriptures are specifically directed at men, aren't they?  

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

All scriptures are specifically directed at men, aren't they?  

In what sense? I'm reading this two ways.

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

In what sense? I'm reading this two ways.

You said that you realized the BOM was specifically directed, according to God's will, at men (which, as a woman, would be pretty devastating if true).  I'm asking, aren't all scriptures specifically directed at men?  All scripture is written by men, is almost exclusively about men, and is always from the male perspective.  

Edited April 19, 2024 by bluebell

[ZealouslyStriving]

23 hours ago, bluebell said:

You said that you realized the BOM was specifically directed at men (which, as a woman, would be pretty devastating if true).  I'm asking, aren't all scriptures specifically directed at men?  All scripture is written by men, is almost exclusively about men, and is always from the male perspective.  

Nvrmnd.

Edited April 20, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[MrShorty]

Perhaps a different way to address @bluebell's concern would be to get specific:

27 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

*how to be a good husband (Lehi)

What specific examples can you give, and how many of those examples might actually be "how to be a good spouse" and, thus, applicable to both husbands and wives?

28 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

how to be a good father (Lehi, Jacob, Enos, King Benjamin, Alma(s), Helaman ben Alma, etc...)

What specific examples do you have in mind, and how many of those examples might be showing "how to be a good parent" and, thus, applicable to both fathers and mothers?

32 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

how to be a good mentor (Captain Helaman)

*how to be a good friend/companion (Ammon ben Mosiah, Alma ben Alma)

*how to be a good leader and citizen (Chief Captain Moroni)

Continuing on with the pattern, what examples can you supply that apply only to men that would not apply equally to women who are mentors, friends, companions, citizens, and leaders?

Perhaps it is just my belief in egalitarianism over complementarianism, but I find that all or nearly all examples from scripture for the kinds of virtues I expect you are seeing your scripture study apply to both men and women equally. Yes, scripture strongly prefers to illustrate these virtues using male examples, but the principles rarely if ever seem specific to men at the exclusion of women.

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, MrShorty said:

Perhaps a different way to address @bluebell's concern would be to get specific:

What specific examples can you give, and how many of those examples might actually be "how to be a good spouse" and, thus, applicable to both husbands and wives?

What specific examples do you have in mind, and how many of those examples might be showing "how to be a good parent" and, thus, applicable to both fathers and mothers?

Continuing on with the pattern, what examples can you supply that apply only to men that would not apply equally to women who are mentors, friends, companions, citizens, and leaders?

Perhaps it is just my belief in egalitarianism over complementarianism, but I find that all or nearly all examples from scripture for the kinds of virtues I expect you are seeing your scripture study apply to both men and women equally. Yes, scripture strongly prefers to illustrate these virtues using male examples, but the principles rarely if ever seem specific to men at the exclusion of women.

Thanks Mrshorty.

Women and girls are taught that we have to read ourselves into the scriptures so we can apply them to ourselves.  Zealous's point would mean that we shouldn't be doing that at all with the Book of Mormon because they aren't meant to apply to us.  And worse, that it's the wisdom of God that doesn't want them applied to us.  

All because of a warped idea that manhood is being persecuted but what our culture is teaching about womanhood is a-ok.

[ZealouslyStriving]

22 hours ago, bluebell said:

Thanks Mrshorty.

Women and girls are taught that we have to read ourselves into the scriptures so we can apply them to ourselves.  Zealous's point would mean that we shouldn't be doing that at all with the Book of Mormon because they aren't meant to apply to us.  And worse, that it's the wisdom of God that doesn't want them applied to us.  

All because of a warped idea that manhood is being persecuted but what our culture is teaching about womanhood is a-ok.

Nvrmnd
 

Edited April 20, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[longview]

There are many fine examples of courage and endurance throughout the scriptures that include both men and women.  Think of Esther, Sariah wife of Lehi, Lamoni with his wife the queen, and Abish the servant.

Alma 19:
16. And it came to pass that they did call on the name of the Lord, in their might, even until they had all fallen to the earth, save it were one of the Lamanitish women, whose name was Abish, she having been converted unto the Lord for many years, on account of a remarkable vision of her father—
17. Thus, having been converted to the Lord, and never having made it known, therefore, when she saw that all the servants of Lamoni had fallen to the earth, and also her mistress, the queen, and the king, and Ammon lay prostrate upon the earth, she knew that it was the power of God; and supposing that this opportunity, by making known unto the people what had happened among them, that by beholding this scene it would cause them to believe in the power of God, therefore she ran forth from house to house, making it known unto the people.

[ZealouslyStriving]

22 hours ago, bluebell said:

All because of a warped idea that manhood is being persecuted

Nvrmnd

Edited April 20, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[ZealouslyStriving]

22 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Putting the absolute worst interpretation on what I wrote (which seems to happen a lot)... Sure.

When I have time later, I'll go into the examples as requested by @MrShorty

Nvrmnd

Edited April 20, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[Tacenda]

34 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Thanks Mrshorty.

Women and girls are taught that we have to read ourselves into the scriptures so we can apply them to ourselves.  Zealous's point would mean that we shouldn't be doing that at all with the Book of Mormon because they aren't meant to apply to us.  And worse, that it's the wisdom of God that doesn't want them applied to us.  

All because of a warped idea that manhood is being persecuted but what our culture is teaching about womanhood is a-ok.

Or rather than men are being attacked they just need the lesson?

[ZealouslyStriving]

I updated the original post for clarity.

[Tacenda]

15 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

When traditional ideas of masculinity and manhood (protector, provider, presider, etc...) is called "toxic" I believe there is an issue...

And before THAT gets the worst possible interpretation, I am not talking about Machismo.

Okay, where is this happening? Manhood being toxic?

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I updated the original post for clarity.

Thanks for clarifying.  

I still have to ask though, since womanhood is as much under attack as manhood is, why would God only inspire scripture for men but not women?

[longview]

58 minutes ago, bluebell said:

All because of a warped idea that manhood is being persecuted but . . .

Are you aware that in many public schools that there is extremely low tolerance for boys to be their natural selves? If boys are too boisterous, energetic, "disruptive" or what have you, then they are forcibly constrained in various ways. Sometimes they like to give them medication to turn them into compliant drones or zombies.

Have you not heard the "outrage" culture demonizing white males for several decades? How goverment welfare policies are structured in such a way that men cannot be part of the household if women were to obtain recieve benefits. Thus effectively driving men away from being with their children and having important influence for them. There are likely hundreds of insidious methods like these for re-programming society.

Edited April 19, 2024 by longview

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Okay, where is this happening? Manhood being toxic?

I think he's talking about the ideas of toxic masculinity and the pushback on that idea.  

Quote

 

What Is Toxic Masculinity?

Toxic masculinity isn’t just about behaving like a man. Instead, it involves the extreme pressure some men may feel to act in a way that is actually harmful.

There are many definitions of “toxic masculinity” that appear in research as well as pop culture. Some researchers have come to agree that toxic masculinity has three core components:

Toughness: This is the notion that men should be physically strong, emotionally callous, and behaviorally aggressive.

Antifeminity: This involves the idea that men should reject anything that is considered to be feminine, such as showing emotion or accepting help.

Power: This is the assumption that men must work toward obtaining power and status (social and financial) so they can gain the respect of others.1

Glorification of Unhealthy Habits 

Toxic masculinity glorifies unhealthy habits. It’s the notion that “self-care is for women” and men should treat their bodies like machines by skimping on sleep, working out even when they’re injured, and pushing themselves to their physical limits. 

In addition to pushing themselves hard physically, toxic masculinity discourages men from seeing doctors. 

 

All of those traits are obviously toxic though, so it's weird to suggest the Book of Mormon is supporting toxic masculinity.

 

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

Thanks for clarifying.  

I still have to ask though, since womanhood is as much under attack as manhood is, why would God only inspire scripture for men but not women?

I can better address womanhood being under attack, if you can clarify what those attacks are.

*I believe* as leaders/presidents, if men reassert their (true, godly) manhood and proper roles things will naturally fall into place.

[ZealouslyStriving]

22 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Okay, where is this happening? Manhood being toxic?

Nvrmnd

Edited April 20, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[ZealouslyStriving]

4 minutes ago, longview said:

Are you aware that in many public schools that there is extremely low tolerance for boys to be their natural selves? If boys are too boisterous, energetic, "disruptive" or what have you, then they are forcibly constrained in various ways. Sometimes they like to give them medication to turn them into compliant drones or zombies.

Have you not heard the "outrage" culture demonizing while males for several decades? How goverment welfare policies are structured in such a way that men cannot be part of the household if women were to obtain recieve benefits. Thus effectively driving men away from being with their children and having important influence for them. There are likely hundreds of insidious methods like these for re-programming society.

Great! I'd give you a like, but it's not available yet.

[bluebell]

3 minutes ago, longview said:

Are you aware that in many public schools that there is extremely low tolerance for boys to be their natural selves? If boys are too boisterous, energetic, "disruptive" or what have you, then they are forcibly constrained in various ways. Sometimes they like to give them medication to turn them into compliant drones or zombies.

Have you not heard the "outrage" culture demonizing while males for several decades? How goverment welfare policies are structured in such a way that men cannot be part of the household if women were to obtain recieve benefits. Thus effectively driving men away from being with their children and having important influence for them. There are likely hundreds of insidious methods like these for re-programming society.

I have heard of all of that.  Some of it is even true (though some of it is just crap).  But none of that means that men need more of God's focus and scriptural teachings than women do.

[ZealouslyStriving]

21 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think he's talking about the ideas of toxic masculinity and the pushback on that idea.  

All of those traits are obviously toxic though, so it's weird to suggest the Book of Mormon is supporting toxic masculinity.

 

Nvrmnd

Edited April 20, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[Doctor Steuss]

17 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Also:

"Being stoic

Men are constantly given the message that they must be self-reliant, independent, physically tough etc. Men are told that to be this way will make them successful in terms of business, society, and finding a partner. Being vulnerable will cause men to be ridiculed.[1] [2] [3]

 

Being promiscuous

Typically, men will be praised by other men for sexual conquests. There is a well-known double standard regarding perceptions of male versus female promiscuity with men being praised by their peers and called ‘studs’ while rejecting women who have multiple partners and branding them ‘sluts’.[4]

 

Championing heterosexuality as the unalterable norm

Many men are programmed to react negatively to the concept of homosexuality as it is a sign of deviating from the traditional male stereotype. Through popular rhetoric and from an early age when boys are learning about gender roles, men are taught that to be homosexual is to be less masculine.[5]

 

Being violent

Statistically, men commit significantly more violent crime than women. There are numerous reasons for this, but there are clear links between male instigated violence and the need men have to use aggression and violence to prove their masculinity and bolster confidence in their masculine identity.[6] [7]

 

Being dominant

To be preoccupied with power and dominance to a point that it causes harm to others, such as verbal, physical and online bullying. One study found that over a quarter of men thought they should have the final word in relationships, over a third of men believed that they had the right to know where their female partner was at all times.[8]

 

Sexual aggression towards women

Men who conform to toxic masculinity standards are more likely to make sexual comments or sexist jokes to women, commit sexual harassment, accept rape myths and behave as if they are entitled to women’s bodies.[8][9]

 

Not displaying emotion

Emotion is treated as being a feminine characteristic. Stifling emotion is seen as true manliness. From childhood, males are shamed to conform with the standard that to show emotion is weak and feminine.[10] [11] [12]

 

Not being a feminist ally

It is unsurprising that the overly masculine would reject men who identify as the allies of feminists. Research shows that men engaging in feminist activism are the targets of harassment by men who prescribe to toxic masculinity as it is perceived as feminine and non-conformist to toxic masculinity.[13]

 

Risk-taking

Connected to male dominance, toxic masculinity encourages taking risks to demonstrate dominance, men who buy into this are more likely to take extreme measures such as perpetrate violence, drive dangerously, gamble, abuse drugs.[14]

 

Not engaging in household chores and caregiving

Again, housework and childrearing are seen as feminine qualities. Being asked to do a feminine deemed task such as housework, or worse, a man being criticised by a woman for not cleaning appropriately is often interpreted as an emasculating assault and provokes a masculine overcompensation response.[15]"

*What happens is anything that, even in the slightest, that hints at the above is seen as toxic.

So, you don't believe that the above are toxic?

I will firmly go on record, that sexual assaulting women, unnecessary risk taking, being prone to violence, and being a bully are incredibly toxic.  Even in the "slightest."  They have no place in "manhood" or "masculinity."

[ZealouslyStriving]

Nvrmnd

Edited April 20, 2024 by ZealouslyStriving

[Calm]

59 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Yes, @Raingirl I know I'm the worst person in the world.

How about showing some manhood and not care if someone disagrees with you and just not post because it looks like whining that someone dared, to be blunt?  

Raingirl uses the down vote for disagreement with everyone rather than writing an additional post to say “nope, think you are wrong” or whatever.  Most people don’t (most people don’t use it at all). I use it only for very strong disagreement, but there are no rules that say you only have to use the downvote a certain way. 

I look on her as a good friend and just yesterday or the day before I got a downvote from her.  It is not my first one either.  I could see why she disagreed with that one, her vote was not something to get all overdramatic about or even send a note asking her to explain herself, lol.

 

Edited April 19, 2024 by Calm