Jacob 5:65-66: Answer to What in the World is Happening in the Church Right Now?

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Crying repentance and warning people is telling people to change and all believers have been called to do that.

We are told " Cry repentance unto this generation.",

Ok. I cry repentance unto you and tell you to change and turn away from your false beliefs and return to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

54 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

There will always be those loyal to Joseph and the fullness of the Restored Gospel... I'm not worried.

Um, didn't you just return to being LDS like 3 months ago? Prior to that you were hanging out with apostates and were an apostate yourself, right? Good thing the harvest wasn't done then -- you'd be burning with the chaff. One would think you'd have some humility and empathy towards others when you reflect on your own circumstances.

4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

It’s needful for the valiant to be tested and tried in the refiner’s fire that will occur as a consequence of having to temporarily rub shoulders with the rebellious who will persecute the humble followers of Christ

Perhaps you are the one that the valiant have to temporarily rub shoulders with? You're the tare among the wheat?

Arrogance and self-righteousness always bugs me, but especially when it is in elevated scriptural language. Jesus had plenty to say about that -- those beautiful whited sepulchers and all.

Edited April 12 by MiserereNobis

[pogi]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Crying repentance and warning people is telling people to change and all believers have been called to do that.

We are told " Cry repentance unto this generation.",

not

"Cry do your own thing, because we are evaluating perennial doctrines in light of post-modern thinking and we could be wrong, unto this generation."

Since people are out and about crying repentance to others...

Perhaps repentance (the change of heart and mind) is in part speaking to those who cling to old stagnant, status quo, traditional, tired and false/harmful narratives/histories that do harm and hinderance to the progressive nature of revelation and the restored gospel. 

"I have tried for a number of years to get the minds of the Saints prepared to receive the things of God; but we frequently see some of them, after suffering all they have for the work of God, will fly to pieces like glass as soon as anything comes that is contrary to their traditions." — Joseph Smith, Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith, p. 52

Quote

There will always be those loyal to Joseph and the fullness of the Restored Gospel... I'm not worried.

Given the known fallibility of man, leaders and the temporal/fallible institution of the church, I sometimes wonder if our loyalties are misplaced. 

The "fullness" of the Restored Gospel is yet to come, it is progressive...   Don't be so sure and hardened and quick to dig your feet in just yet.  The Lord requires a malleable heart and mind.  

 

 

Edited April 12 by pogi

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Ok. I cry repentance unto you and tell you to change and turn away from your false beliefs and return to the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.

And that's your prerogative. If you truly believe that the Catholic Church is God's Church, with God's authority I would be disappointed if you didn't.

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Um, didn't you just return to being LDS like 3 months ago? Prior to that you were hanging out with apostates and were an apostate yourself, right? Good thing the harvest wasn't done then -- you'd be burning with the chaff. One would think you'd have some humility and empathy towards others when you reflect on your own circumstances.

I maintained my testimony of Joseph and the Restored Gospel while I stupidly alienated myself from the organization of the Church. I actually returned to the Church 3 years ago.

I do have empathy, but truth is still truth and truth must be proclaimed. I'm sorry if people's feelings are hurt, but should that make those that have the truth shut their mouths?

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Perhaps you are the one that the valiant have to temporarily rub shoulders with? You're the tare among the wheat?

Maybe.

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Arrogance and self-righteousness always bugs me, but especially when it is in elevated scriptural language. Jesus had plenty to say about that -- those beautiful whited sepulchers and all.

If you knew my story you would not accuse me of self-righteousness. I am not going to let the things I learned through hard experience go to waste. If I  can help one person not have to learn the hard way, like I have, accusations of self-righteousness will be worth it.

When Nephi spoke the truth he also was accused of self -righteousness. Those who speak truth will always be accused of pridefully thinking they are better than everyone else.

Edited April 12 by ZealouslyStriving

[MustardSeed]

14 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

And that's your prerogative. If you truly believe that the Catholic Church is God's Church, with God's authority I would be disappointed if you didn't.

I maintained my testimony of Joseph and the Restored Gospel while I stupidly alienated myself from the organization of the Church. I actually returned to the Church 3 years ago.

I do have empathy, but truth is still truth and truth must be proclaimed. I'm sorry if people's feelings are hurt, but should that make those that have the truth shut their mouths?

Maybe.

If you knew my story you would not accuse me of self-righteousness. I am not going to let the things I learned through hard experience go to waste. If I  can help one person not have to learn the hard way, like I have, accusations of self-righteousness will be worth it.

When Nephi spoke the truth he also was accused of self -righteousness. Those who speak truth will always be accused of pridefully thinking they are better than everyone else.

Hey.  I agree with you, to the extent that “everything goes” doesn’t do anyone any favors.  
 

But your approach here is terribly alienating.  Isn’t there a way to inspire and do so in a way that doesn’t come across as arrogant? 

[ZealouslyStriving]

2 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Hey.  I agree with you, to the extent that “everything goes” doesn’t do anyone any favors.  
 

But your approach here is terribly alienating.  Isn’t there a way to inspire and do so in a way that doesn’t come across as arrogant? 

If anything I say that advocates for absolute truth will be seen as arrogant- apparently not.

[MustardSeed]

2 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

If anything I say that advocates for absolute truth will be seen as arrogant- apparently not.

Are you not at all curious why so many good, kind, faithful people are having a negative reaction to you?   

Do you really think it’s because you’re right , and no one can see that? 
 

it’s not your message.  It’s your delivery. I promise. 
 

 

[Smiley McGee]

35 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I'm sorry if people's feelings are hurt, but should that make those that have the truth shut their mouths?

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Don’t give yourself so much credit. I doubt most here esteem your opinion highly enough to be hurt by it. What you’re observing is people disagreeing that you have “the truth” and you failing to justify that you indeed have it. 

[MiserereNobis]

34 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

If I  can help one person not have to learn the hard way, like I have, accusations of self-righteousness will be worth it.

When Nephi spoke the truth he also was accused of self -righteousness. Those who speak truth will always be accused of pridefully thinking they are better than everyone else.

Ok, let's say your approach helps one person. What if, though, your approach turns 20 people away from the truth? You're at a negative 19.

The way we try to convince and help people matters. A lot.

[CV75]

4 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I just had an eye-opening experience as a read the end of Jacob 5 this morning!

The roots being the eternal covenant made to Abraham and his posterity, and it having the possibility of being overrun and killed by bad fruit producing branches, and the Lord of the vineyard needing to destroy the whole vineyard if that happened, made me think of the earth being utterly wasted and cursed at his coming if temple ordinances of sealing were not performed. Then it dawned on me- the primary work the servant (Joseph Smith Jr.) and the servants he brings with him (succeeding Church presidents) is the join together families and previous dispensations through Temple work. Making the roots (ancestors) and the branches (descendants) equal. 

"15 And now, my dearly beloved brethren and sisters, let me assure you that these are principles in relation to the dead and the living that cannot be lightly passed over, as pertaining to our salvation. For their salvation is necessary and essential to our salvation, as Paul says concerning the fathers—that they without us cannot be made perfect—neither can we without our dead be made perfect." (Doctrine and Covenants 128)

Jacob 5 is primarily about the House of the Lord!

*Hope that all made sense.*

Yes, it makes sense to me in that the temple where the marriage sealing covenants are transmitted to couples, living and dead. This ordinance transmits the promise of the covenant (which began with Adam and Eve) to their children through birth. Other sealing ordinances allow for adoption to the living and all aspects of sealing required for the gathering of the dead into their families, and the living to them. I think it gets recognized as the "Abrahamic" covenant because of the language used in the Bible and other Semitic scriptural records, and therefore more immediately resonates those who claim descendancy from him and his tradition and who can more ostensibly tie the restoration to those earlier times.

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I think several of you are missing the point of my original post.

The whole point is to NOT worry so much that the goats are baaa-ing so loudly. What needs to be cleared will be cleared in the due time of the Lord.

Is there something to discuss within that point or was this thread just about providing us with information?  I'm not sure what your goal is.

[ZealouslyStriving]

Please, point me to a plain-spoken, conservative, traditionalist apologist whom ya'll don't find arrogant, self-righteous, or combative that I can seek to emulate.

[MustardSeed]

2 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

Please, point me to a plain-spoken, conservative, traditionalist apologist whom ya'll don't find arrogant, self-righteous, or combative that I can seek to emulate.

Bluebell. 

[MustardSeed]

BlueDreams.

[MustardSeed]

Calm

[MustardSeed]

These three participants are protectors and defenders of the faith and do so with social skills and intelligence that I think is unmatched.  They are loving, kind, hold others accountable, assert their opinions without belittling others points of view.  I’ve learned a lot from them and would not hesitate to ask them to join me for a meal or ask their advice.   I would trust them to help me want to change.  And I trust they are very faithful folks. 

 

I also think Misererenobis is very inspiring and not at all arrogant in his firm beliefs.  

There are many other here who fit the bill IMO

Edited April 13 by MustardSeed

[Calm]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

Calm.

 

These three participants are protectors and defenders of the faith and do so with social skills and intelligence that I think is unmatched.  They are loving, kind, hold others accountable, assert their opinions without belittling others points of view.  I’ve learned a lot from them and would not hesitate to ask them to join me for a meal or ask their advice.   I would trust them to help me want to change.  And I trust they are very faithful folks. 

 

I also think Misererenobis is very inspiring and not at all arrogant in his firm beliefs.  

There are many other here who fit the bill IMO

I think you meant bluebell for one of the Calms.   

[Calm]

I had a Evangelical friend tell me he would not pray with me when I asked him (he did not shove it at me out of the blue) but he did so in such a way I felt more love and acceptance from him than exclusion or judgment.  He did not want to impede my journey to God by giving any misunderstanding of what he believed that needed to be and it was clear he believed I was on the path towards God rather than heading to hell because of my false (in his view) beliefs.  I wasn’t far enough down that path though to be accepted by God as a disciple of Christ yet.

You can call someone to repentance in a way that makes them feel loved.  Anything that appears to be rejoicing or gloating over the fallen, those that don’t make it automatically doesn’t work in my experience.  Instant dislike in fact.

Edited April 13 by Calm

[Tacenda]

I love all the names mentioned thus far, and would like to add @manolto the mix! Except, I'm not sure you'd call him a conservative or traditionalist or apologetic either. But like how he's not combative in his disagreements, if that helps. 

Edited April 13 by Tacenda

[MustardSeed]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I love all the names mentioned thus far, and would like to add @manolto the mix! Except, I'm not sure you'd call him a conservative or traditionalist or apologetic either. But like how he's not combative in his disagreements, if that helps. 

Nor are you. ❤️ you’re humble, I like that ! 

[manol]

In my opinion:

Something that gets overlooked when the parable of the wheat and the tares comes up in the Sunday School lesson:

It is not the job of the wheat to decide who are the "tares"!   In the parable, that is the job of the ANGELS.  So unless any of us are able to see from the same perspective as the angels, and with the same wisdom as the angels, we would be out of place to presume we can judge who is wheat and who is tare.  That is simply not our job.  We do have jobs, but that is not one of them.  

To put it another way, if "the last shall be first, and the first shall be last", then obviously none of us are in a position to judge those we disagree with (or anyone else) to be among the "last".  That is simply not our job.  We do have jobs, but that is not one of them. 

Or as Brigham said (thanks for the quote @Doctor Steuss!): 

Let us observe the "Mormon Creed" - let everyone mind their own business. Everyone has weeds enough in his own garden to attend to without attending to the weeds in his neighbor's garden, for while you are attending to the weeds of your neighbor, those in your own will grow very thick and tall and will finally spoil the good seed.

 

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I love all the names mentioned thus far, and would like to add @manolto the mix! Except, I'm not sure you'd call him a conservative or traditionalist or apologetic either. But like how he's not combative in his disagreements, if that helps. 

No way do I belong on the same list.  I'll trot out my apostate credentials if I have to.  But, thank you anyway! 

Edited April 13 by manol

[ZealouslyStriving]

This will be my final post in this topic...

The point of my original post is that conservative members  shouldn't be getting upset at the leaders of the Church for not taking care of things they might perceive as an issue, in the way they would take care of them (no ark steadying). They should be patient and wait for the Lord to clear away what they perceive as issues through the Lord's chosen leaders.

And that would go the same for progressive members. If they perceive traditionalist members as a barrier to what they believe God wants to do, they should be patient and wait to clear away what they perceive as issues through the Lord's chosen leaders, instead of advocating bottom-up revelation.

@MustardSeed asked, what I perceived, as a question about what I believe those issues might be. Being traditional and plain spoken, I answered.

That answer has been perceived as me saying we need to go out, angrily confront people, and caste them out. Which is actually the opposite of what I was saying.

I do, however, believe that conservative members should be able to advocate just as forcefully, though with kindness (I know many don't view my defense of the Church as kind, I disagree- though at times I have slipped up), for a traditional view of Church history and doctrine as those who are strongly advocating for adapting to a post-modern, critical theory view of those things. But when we do we are often viewed as harsh, judgmental, and lacking empathy. While those on the progressive side are seen as sensitive and caring, rightfully angry about patriarchal, colonialist, white male privilege they believe affected even the foundations of the Restoration. When it is being taught at our Church schools that Nephi and Enos were prideful racists and that Mormon was a hateful genocidal warlord, do we not have a right to push back and challenge that narrative?

I'll leave that for each individual to decide.

I will now move on from this topic.

 

Edited April 13 by ZealouslyStriving

[Ragerunner]

22 hours ago, bluebell said:

I don’t disagree with you.

But I’m always wary of these kind of pronouncements because inevitably what the person making the announcement seems to be saying is that “what needs to be cleared away is everyone who doesn’t believe the exact same way that I do.”

We have another Bingo!

[Ragerunner]

19 hours ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I think several of you are missing the point of my original post.

The whole point is to NOT worry so much that the goats are baaa-ing so loudly. What needs to be cleared will be cleared in the due time of the Lord.

I don’t think people are missing the point of your post.

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

This will be my final post in this topic...

The point of my original post is that conservative members  shouldn't be getting upset at the leaders of the Church for not taking care of things they might perceive as an issue, in the way they would take care of them (no ark steadying). They should be patient and wait for the Lord to clear away what they perceive as issues through the Lord's chosen leaders.

And that would go the same for progressive members. If they perceive traditionalist members as a barrier to what they believe God wants to do, they should be patient and wait to clear away what they perceive as issues through the Lord's chosen leaders, instead of advocating bottom-up revelation.

@MustardSeed asked, what I perceived, as a question about what I believe those issues might be. Being traditional and plain spoken, I answered.

That answer has been perceived as me saying we need to go out, angrily confront people, and caste them out. Which is actually the opposite of what I was saying.

I do, however, believe that conservative members should be able to advocate just as forcefully, though with kindness (I know many don't view my defense of the Church as kind, I disagree- though at times I have slipped up), for a traditional view of Church history and doctrine as those who are strongly advocating for adapting to a post-modern, critical theory view of those things. But when we do we are often viewed as harsh, judgmental, and lacking empathy. While those on the progressive side are seen as sensitive and caring, rightfully angry about patriarchal, colonialist, white male privilege they believe affected even the foundations of the Restoration. When it is being taught at our Church schools that Nephi and Enos were prideful racists and that Mormon was a hateful genocidal warlord, do we not have a right to push back and challenge that narrative?

I'll leave that for each individual to decide.

I will now move on from this topic.

 

I read a tinge of political strife. I believe you're not alone in worrying about the things that I'm reading between the lines so to speak. Or that you're worried some progressives are crossing the line. But I don't know about the claim that church schools are teaching that Nephi and Enos were prideful racists and that Mormon was a hateful genocidal warlord, this is news to me. Could I get a reference? (CFR) And in order for you to really answer can you post again on this thread again possibly? I'm very interested to know what you're talking about. Because at first I thought it was political but now see it probably isn't. Think critical race theories, or coming after children to make them gay and such nonsense. 

Anyhow, I don't think you've been a bully about you're feelings actually. But maybe I'm not reading the comments thoroughly. I take it you've come to realizations and it's difficult not to act on your faith feelings about what the Lord wants and feel it frustrating and that you must act on them, as a way to show solidarity. Or faithfulness? 

[ZealouslyStriving]

10 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I read a tinge of political strife. I believe you're not alone in worrying about the things that I'm reading between the lines so to speak. Or that you're worried some progressives are crossing the line. But I don't know about the claim that church schools are teaching that Nephi and Enos were prideful racists and that Mormon was a hateful genocidal warlord, this is news to me. Could I get a reference? (CFR) And in order for you to really answer can you post again on this thread again possibly? I'm very interested to know what you're talking about. Because at first I thought it was political but now see it probably isn't. Think critical race theories, or coming after children to make them gay and such nonsense. 

Anyhow, I don't think you've been a bully about you're feelings actually. But maybe I'm not reading the comments thoroughly. I take it you've come to realizations and it's difficult not to act on your faith feelings about what the Lord wants and feel it frustrating and that you must act on them, as a way to show solidarity. Or faithfulness? 

I will make an exception for you.

I know some won't like it, but the "Critical Theory Series" playlist from CWIC Media's YouTube is a good primer of what is happening. There are several videos in the list about BYU specifically. Here are 3: