Why Utah is So Weird (Wendover Productions)

[Stargazer]

The 4.4 million subscriber YouTube channel Wendover Productions has just posted a new video titled "Why Utah is So Weird." Of course, the weirdness is mainly because of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

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Edited April 5 by Stargazer

[rpn]

I thought it is pretty accurate and thorough.   I wouldn't have used "weird" though.

[Calm]

The stats on being ProLGBTQ rights with Utah being the second most supportive, only behind Hawaii, even in front of California (86% vs 79%).

Starts around 7 minutes in….

And the following spot on immigration, we are viewed as a sanctuary state.

Edited April 5 by Calm

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

The stats on being ProLGBTQ rights with Utah being the second most supportive, only behind Hawaii, even in front of California (86% vs 79%).

Starts around 7 minutes in….

And the following spot on immigration, we are viewed as a sanctuary state.

I'll take both! Good for Utah, it is a pretty great state! No matter what others say. 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'll take both! Good for Utah, it is a pretty great state! No matter what others say. 

It comes with religious qualifications, so properly called compromises imo.

[bluebell]

16 hours ago, rpn said:

I thought it is pretty accurate and thorough.   I wouldn't have used "weird" though.

It's a clickbait title.  Makes more people watch it.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, bluebell said:

It's a clickbait title.  Makes more people watch it.

A better match from the video is atypical or counterintuitive, but neither are as grabbing, lol

[Tacenda]

We may be weird or peculiar, but Utah is nearly the 10 best educated states in America. I think the 11th or so at least. 

[The Nehor]

On 4/5/2024 at 6:19 PM, Calm said:

The stats on being ProLGBTQ rights with Utah being the second most supportive, only behind Hawaii, even in front of California (86% vs 79%).

This is self-reported. Many Utahans are either personally convinced they are pro-LGBTQ rights when they are not or are genuine but elect people who don’t actually represent that view.

Utah ranks in the bottom half of states on LGBTQ rights by most of the measuring systems used to rate LGBTQ rights by state. Utah is in the bottom half of all the ones I know of.

[Calm]

That’s disappointing 

[Stargazer]

23 hours ago, Calm said:

That’s disappointing 

What was disappointing?

[Calm]

23 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

What was disappointing?

Self reporting being so far off from other measures.

[Stargazer]

36 minutes ago, Calm said:

Self reporting being so far off from other measures.

Understood.

It's kind of odd, given that the YT channel Wendover Productions tends to be rather detail-oriented when it comes to research. You'd think that they would have reported on something more substantial than self-reports.

[Stargazer]

On 4/9/2024 at 6:09 PM, The Nehor said:

This is self-reported. Many Utahans are either personally convinced they are pro-LGBTQ rights when they are not or are genuine but elect people who don’t actually represent that view.

Utah ranks in the bottom half of states on LGBTQ rights by most of the measuring systems used to rate LGBTQ rights by state. Utah is in the bottom half of all the ones I know of.

When it comes to this kind of thing, I've noticed that there is a substantial bias in the "measuring systems" that rate these kinds of things. For example, I consider myself to be supportive of LGBTQ rights. But because I do not endorse the views of the extreme fringe of LGBTQ advocates I would be considered by them to be anti-LGBTQ. For example, I am completely opposed to trans-women participating in sports against biological women. That's because they aren't really women. They are men in woman-face. That gives them a competitive advantage which is beyond unfair. So that makes me an utter bigot according to the extremists.

And please don't jack the thread and argue with me over the validity of my views. It's irrelevant to the point. If you think I'm wrong, fine. But I'm talking about the labelling, not the underlying principle of trans-whatever. If a man wants to cosplay as a woman, great! Go for it. 

[The Nehor]

On 4/10/2024 at 2:40 PM, Stargazer said:

When it comes to this kind of thing, I've noticed that there is a substantial bias in the "measuring systems" that rate these kinds of things. For example, I consider myself to be supportive of LGBTQ rights. But because I do not endorse the views of the extreme fringe of LGBTQ advocates I would be considered by them to be anti-LGBTQ. For example, I am completely opposed to trans-women participating in sports against biological women. That's because they aren't really women. They are men in woman-face. That gives them a competitive advantage which is beyond unfair. So that makes me an utter bigot according to the extremists.

In regards to professional sports transgender people are mixed on views of what the standards of participation should be.

When it comes to singling out middle and high school students out and humiliating them in the interests of fairness it is not a fringe view to oppose. It is pretty much universally opposed. We know what the results of this hatemongering are.

On 4/10/2024 at 2:40 PM, Stargazer said:

And please don't jack the thread and argue with me over the validity of my views. It's irrelevant to the point. If you think I'm wrong, fine. But I'm talking about the labelling, not the underlying principle of trans-whatever.

What?

On 4/10/2024 at 2:40 PM, Stargazer said:

If a man wants to cosplay as a woman, great! Go for it. 

Behold a Utah LGBT rights supporter happily waving their ally pride flag.

With friends like these……..

[Calm]

On 4/10/2024 at 1:40 PM, Stargazer said:

They are men in woman-face. That gives them a competitive advantage which is beyond unfair. So that makes me an utter bigot according to the extremists.

Not really. My guess is the “men in woman-face” is why you would get called out rather than the sports stuff given the variety of opinion out there on the latter out there.

Your choice of using “woman-face” links directly to “black-face” which has all sorts of racist implications, so your own willingness to go there pretty drags your comment over into bigotry even for someone like me who isn’t sure how transgender is should be treated medically.  If you don’t want to be labeled a bigot, you should probably avoid such comparisons. 

Edited May 9 by Calm

[Stargazer]

On 5/9/2024 at 6:06 AM, The Nehor said:

In regards to professional sports transgender people are mixed on views of what the standards of participation should be.

OK

On 5/9/2024 at 6:06 AM, The Nehor said:

When it comes to singling out middle and high school students out and humiliating them in the interests of fairness it is not a fringe view to oppose. It is pretty much universally opposed. We know what the results of this hatemongering are.

We do?

On 5/9/2024 at 6:06 AM, The Nehor said:

What?

What?

On 5/9/2024 at 6:06 AM, The Nehor said:

Behold a Utah LGBT rights supporter happily waving their ally pride flag.

Behold a human rights supporter. 

On 5/9/2024 at 6:06 AM, The Nehor said:

With friends like these……..

 

[The Nehor]

46 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

OK

We do?

Fine, I do. And other people who follow what the current hysteria is do. It leads to maniacs trying to spot the trans cheaters.

The whole sports thing is a red herring. Most transgender people accept that depending on the sport in question at professional levels there will be rules governing them. Continually beating this drum is an excuse to villainize transgender people without having to get into the weeds of rights and discrimination. It lets people cast trans people as monsters invading and destroying the once ignored cherished institution of women’s sports.

This is part of a larger shift in the discussion. Most critics want to make this a war of ideology with the idea built in that popularizing it will lead to converts. This is a tried and true strategy. Anita Bryant used the same fear for her campaign of homophobia talking about how gay people can’t reproduce so they must convert and pearl-clutched about gays converting children. Obligatory shout out to the brave pie slammed into her face.

This is why I think the “trans women are women” slogan is dumb. It invites endless semantic arguments about what being a woman is and lets everyone dodge the reality that the political interests of trans people are much more focused on rights and not on promoting some kind of ideology. Trans people don’t have a unified ideology about what being trans means or where it comes from. The “man born in a woman’s body” is often the caricatured one but a lot of other trans people don’t believe there is some metaphysical explanation. Others tie it strictly to dysphoria. Others less so.

[Stargazer]

On 5/9/2024 at 7:23 AM, Calm said:

Not really. My guess is the “men in woman-face” is why you would get called out rather than the sports stuff given the variety of opinion out there on the latter out there.

If I showed up at a public event masquerading as a black man, I think I would get called on that. It's pretty normal to see accusations of "black-face" to be thrown around, even in mainstream settings. And very frequently wrongly. You may recall the little boy at a Chiefs football game wearing team colors on his face who was accused by a race-baiting sports columnist of committing both "black-face" and "red-face." And then got egg on his face because the little boy turned out to be of American Indian background.

On 5/9/2024 at 7:23 AM, Calm said:

Your choice of using “woman-face” links directly to “black-face” which has all sorts of racist implications, so your own willingness to go there pretty drags your comment over into bigotry even for someone like me who isn’t sure how transgender is should be treated medically.  If you don’t want to be labeled a bigot, you should probably avoid such comparisons. 

Yes, probably. 

All J K Rowling, a radical feminist, had to do was stand up for women's rights in the face of men masquerading as women in order to take over women's spaces. And for that she is now considered an extreme bigot (and was labelled a TERF). And people started boycotting Harry Potter because of it. All I have to say is that if that is what constitutes bigotry nowadays, then the term has become amazingly elastic. 

I was once called a racist and a bigot and excoriated because in a Facebook thread devoted to the purported racism of a certain presidential candidate, I made a neutral comment regarding the accuracy of an unrelated fact made by one of the participants. In other words, during "Hate Week" (see the novel 1984) I failed to express the acceptable level of hate towards the arbitrary target. The thread's originator (a sometime member of the august assemblage of this fine board, btw) then followed me to my own Facebook page and excoriated me on my very own feed. Until my actual friends who have known me for decades ran him off.

All I have to say is that it is remarkably easy to be called a bigot these days. 

I feel a huge degree of sympathy towards people who genuinely suffer from gender dysphoria. When I was young, I even had a degree of it myself. Though I grew out of it, I know there are some people who don't. It is obviously something that needs treatment, and a great deal of sympathy. In my ward there is a very nice young woman who seems to have a problem with it, and she attends church in mostly men's clothing and hairstyle. If she needs to do that to feel comfortable, that's fine. 

But that's not what I am talking about when it comes to "woman-face." What I object to is men who do it for nefarious reasons. Like the man who could not win men's swimming championships because he wasn't good enough, so he claimed womanhood in order to win over actual women, driving out actual female athletes. And the men being sent to prison who claim to be women so they can be sent to women's prisons, where they make other inmates pregnant. The insane Scottish government even sent a male multiple rapist to a women's prison because he claimed womanhood. These people do not suffer from gender dysphoria. They are men in "woman-face." 

I hope I have made myself clear. And if I must be regarded as a bigot as a result, then fine.

And just to make this post relevant to the the purposes of the board, I am 100% on board with the church's Family Proclamation, and its implicit recognition that there are two sexes, and only two sexes. Men are men, women are women, and where there are actual medical conditions they should be treated as such, and not for turning society into a topsy-turvy clown-world image of itself like we seem to be faced with at the moment.

 

[Stargazer]

44 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Fine, I do. And other people who follow what the current hysteria is do. It leads to maniacs trying to spot the trans cheaters.

I'm not entirely sure what maniacs you're referring to. I'd appreciate an example, if you don't mind. And evidence that this is a prevalent occurrence.

44 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The whole sports thing is a red herring. Most transgender people accept that depending on the sport in question at professional levels there will be rules governing them. Continually beating this drum is an excuse to villainize transgender people without having to get into the weeds of rights and discrimination. It lets people cast trans people as monsters invading and destroying the once ignored cherished institution of women’s sports.

I disagree that it is a red herring. 

Personally, I care very little about sports, either male or female. But there are women who do care very much that there are men invading their spaces. I sympathize with them. Is this allowed?

44 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

This is part of a larger shift in the discussion. Most critics want to make this a war of ideology with the idea built in that popularizing it will lead to converts. This is a tried and true strategy. Anita Bryant used the same fear for her campaign of homophobia talking about how gay people can’t reproduce so they must convert and pearl-clutched about gays converting children. Obligatory shout out to the brave pie slammed into her face.

This is why I think the “trans women are women” slogan is dumb. It invites endless semantic arguments about what being a woman is and lets everyone dodge the reality that the political interests of trans people are much more focused on rights and not on promoting some kind of ideology. Trans people don’t have a unified ideology about what being trans means or where it comes from. The “man born in a woman’s body” is often the caricatured one but a lot of other trans people don’t believe there is some metaphysical explanation. Others tie it strictly to dysphoria. Others less so.

If a man wants to appear to be a woman, for whatever (non-fraudulent) reason, I say let him do it. Some do it more successfully than others, of course, but whatever floats their boat.

But when a man wants to appear to be a woman in order to overcome his own shortcomings as a man, such as the male athletes who claim womanhood to displace women in sports, I object. When a man claims womanhood to enable him to more easily sexually assault females, I object. If you want to argue that these are exceptional cases that are blown out of proportion, you are certainly correct. But they are nevertheless real, being facilitated by short-sighted governing bodies, and I object.

If my objection to this leads to me being accused of being a bigot, so be it.

 

Edited May 12 by Stargazer

[The Nehor]

38 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I'm not entirely sure what maniacs you're referring to. I'd appreciate an example, if you don't mind. And evidence that this is a prevalent occurrence.

https://www.sacbee.com/news/nation-world/world/article276378716.html

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2023/06/16/9-year-old-track-transgender/

https://abcnews.go.com/US/utah-school-board-official-falsely-suggested-teen-girl/story?id=107100300

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/trans-sports-school-canada-british-columbia-b2357628.html

38 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I disagree that it is a red herring. 

Then you’re wrong.

38 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Personally, I care very little about sports, either male or female. But there are women who do care very much that there are men invading their spaces. I sympathize with them. Is this allowed?

Good job playing the victim and making it about you.

38 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

If a man wants to appear to be a woman, for whatever (non-fraudulent) reason, I say let him do it. Some do it more successfully than others, of course, but whatever floats their boat.

There is a “but” coming isn’t there?

38 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

But when a man wants to appear to be a woman in order to overcome his own shortcomings as a man, such as the male athletes who claim womanhood to displace women in sports, I object. When a man claims womanhood to enable him to more easily sexually assault females, I object. If you want to argue that these are exceptional cases that are blown out of proportion, you are certainly correct. But they are nevertheless real, being facilitated by short-sighted governing bodies, and I object.

Yep, that theory holds. Transgender people are all people who couldn’t cut it as a man. So first ignore trans men and throwing in a dose of misogyny that being a woman  is somehow a man taking an easy way out. Transgender people are much more likely to be assaulted than to be the assaulter.

38 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

If my objection to this leads to me being accused of being a bigot, so be it.

You poor little thing. Do you need a safe space to cry in snowflake?

Edited May 12 by The Nehor

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

All J K Rowling, a radical feminist, had to do was stand up for women's rights in the face of men masquerading as women in order to take over women's spaces. And for that she is now considered an extreme bigot (and was labelled a TERF). And people started boycotting Harry Potter because of it. All I have to say is that if that is what constitutes bigotry nowadays, then the term has become amazingly elastic. 

LOL

No.