"Be fruitful and multiply" for people who are infertile

[telnetd]

Regarding this March 2021 Liahona article.

"While waiting to have children, I learned that I could multiply and replenish the earth in other ways".

"During my ups and downs, I have found myself often reflecting on the commandment given to Adam and Eve. 
We believe that this commandment remains in full force today and that we are expected to follow it. 
However, my husband and I haven't yet been able to. But neither could Adam and Eve, at first. So what 
did they do? The only thing they knew how-they took care of the garden. While I don't live in the Garden 
of Eden, I do live in the garden of the earth, the garden of the Netherlands, the garden of my family, 
and the garden of my ward. These are my gardens that the Lord has asked me to multiply and replenish".

Did God's commandment to "be fruitful and multiply" solely refer to procreation for Adam and Eve or 
did it also include their caretaking of the plants and trees in the Garden of Eden?

Is it proper to assign a different meaning to how the commandment to Adam and Eve should be understand 
when applied to infertile men and women?

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Did God's commandment to "be fruitful and multiply" solely refer to procreation for Adam and Eve or 
did it also include their caretaking of the plants and trees in the Garden of Eden?

You are ignoring the “replenish the earth” commandment part of it.  That can be done by anyone.

Edited March 28 by Calm

[LoudmouthMormon]

The Lord: "Welcome to the final judgment.  Here's your entire life, all our actions and motivations behind them.  Let's take a look here.  Seems like you went about trying pretty hard to keep the commandments - that's good!  But it looks like you never had children.  The commandment was 'be fruitful and multiply' - what happened?"

Infertile person: "I was infertile."

The Lord: "Ah yes.  Good answer.  I see you rocked as a member missionary and your light so shone that at least 35 people were inspired to seek the gospel.  So you obviously found other ways to multiply!  Moving on..."

 

I mean, what else is the Lord gonna say?  "That's no excuse"?  He wouldn't be the Lord if he said that.

[smac97]

17 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Regarding this March 2021 Liahona article.

"While waiting to have children, I learned that I could multiply and replenish the earth in other ways".

"During my ups and downs, I have found myself often reflecting on the commandment given to Adam and Eve. We believe that this commandment remains in full force today and that we are expected to follow it.  However, my husband and I haven't yet been able to. But neither could Adam and Eve, at first. So what did they do? The only thing they knew how-they took care of the garden. While I don't live in the Garden of Eden, I do live in the garden of the earth, the garden of the Netherlands, the garden of my family, and the garden of my ward. These are my gardens that the Lord has asked me to multiply and replenish".

Did God's commandment to "be fruitful and multiply" solely refer to procreation for Adam and Eve or did it also include their caretaking of the plants and trees in the Garden of Eden?

I think the article "likens" the commandment to "be fruitful and multiply" to contexts other than procreation.  But procreation seems to be its principal point and purpose.

17 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Is it proper to assign a different meaning to how the commandment to Adam and Eve should be understand when applied to infertile men and women?

Provided she isn't "wresting" scriptures, I think it's find.

"But neither could Adam and Even, at first."  That's correct.  Having children happens right away for some, happens after long delay and difficulty for others, and for still others it never happens at all in this life.

The timeframe for obedience and covenants is often far above and beyond what we may first expect.  Consider, for example, the Abrahamic Covenant:

Quote

Abraham made covenants with God when he received the gospel, when he was ordained a high priest, and when he entered into celestial marriage. In these covenants, God promised great blessings to Abraham and his family. These blessings, which extend to all of Abraham’s seed, are called the Abrahamic covenant.

Among the promises made to Abraham were the following:

• His posterity would be numerous.

• His seed, or descendants, would receive the gospel and bear the priesthood.

• Through the ministry of his seed, “all the families of the earth [would] be blessed, even with the blessings of the Gospel, which are the blessings of salvation, even of life eternal.”

A person can receive all the blessings of the Abrahamic covenant—even if he or she is not a literal descendant of Abraham—by obeying the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

I have a hard time envisioning me entering into a contract that would be designed to benefit my descendants thousands of years into the future.  However, in the context of the Restored Gospel, this longer view makes a lot of senses.  Similarly, the mandate to "multiply and replenish" can also make sense in a longer view.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Derl Sanderson]

As per usual, SMAC is pretty much dead-on. We seem too often inclined to be myopic when considering truths and promises that are, in fact, eternal in nature. My wife and I could have no children, but adopted three. My wife still holds out hope that in eternity, her deep-held desire of motherhood through non-adoptive means might be realized. How that might happen I cannot begin to know. But I join her in that hope and the promises that bind us all together.    

[Pyreaux]

4 hours ago, telnetd said:

Is it proper to assign a different meaning to how the commandment to Adam and Eve should be understand 
when applied to infertile men and women?

Yes, or are we to shame the six barren women in the Bible? The paradigm of women in the Bible supports the Rabbinic adage that God holds the keys to birth and death (M. Taanit 3:8) what God can give, God may take back. Sometimes the power of closing and opening the womb is attributed to the divine, even for the fertile woman (Genesis 30:17). In the psalms of praise, God is the source of fertility and conception (Psalms 113:9, 1 Samuel 2:5).

Often these biblical women suffered deep shame as a consequence, before they were blessed, their barrenness was thought to be attributed to some hidden wrong, sin, or flaw.  When Rachel pleads with Jacob, “Give me children or else I die” (Gen 30:1), he answers: “Am I in the place of God who has withheld from you the fruit of the womb?” (Gen 30:2); when she finally conceives, she names her son Joseph, “for God has taken away my reproach” (Gen 30:23). Peninah made Hannah miserable, taunting her because “God had closed her womb” (1 Samu 1:6).

It seems the interpretation of the commandment can be adapted "properly". This is how we got a polygynous society, sometimes by the initiative of the barren woman herself, who would use her handmaid to bear children for her in a kind of proto-surrogacy: Sarai uses Hagar (Gen 16), Rachel uses Bilhah (Gen 30:3-8), and Leah uses Zilpah (Gen 30:10-13). If that is proper, why would it necessarily be improper for any other concept of surrogate conception? Would that be... inconceivable?

Edited March 29 by Pyreaux

[CV75]

4 hours ago, telnetd said:

Regarding this March 2021 Liahona article.

"While waiting to have children, I learned that I could multiply and replenish the earth in other ways".

"During my ups and downs, I have found myself often reflecting on the commandment given to Adam and Eve. 
We believe that this commandment remains in full force today and that we are expected to follow it. 
However, my husband and I haven't yet been able to. But neither could Adam and Eve, at first. So what 
did they do? The only thing they knew how-they took care of the garden. While I don't live in the Garden 
of Eden, I do live in the garden of the earth, the garden of the Netherlands, the garden of my family, 
and the garden of my ward. These are my gardens that the Lord has asked me to multiply and replenish".

Did God's commandment to "be fruitful and multiply" solely refer to procreation for Adam and Eve or 
did it also include their caretaking of the plants and trees in the Garden of Eden?

Is it proper to assign a different meaning to how the commandment to Adam and Eve should be understand 
when applied to infertile men and women?

It is proper to fulfil this commandment the best way you can in good faith.

[rodheadlee]

7 hours ago, telnetd said:

Regarding this March 2021 Liahona article.

"While waiting to have children, I learned that I could multiply and replenish the earth in other ways".

"During my ups and downs, I have found myself often reflecting on the commandment given to Adam and Eve. 
We believe that this commandment remains in full force today and that we are expected to follow it. 
However, my husband and I haven't yet been able to. But neither could Adam and Eve, at first. So what 
did they do? The only thing they knew how-they took care of the garden. While I don't live in the Garden 
of Eden, I do live in the garden of the earth, the garden of the Netherlands, the garden of my family, 
and the garden of my ward. These are my gardens that the Lord has asked me to multiply and replenish".

Did God's commandment to "be fruitful, but we did take a few people in that we consider our children but we did take a few people in that we consider our children and multiply" solely refer to procreation for Adam and Eve or 
did it also include their caretaking of the plants and trees in the Garden of Eden?

Is it proper to assign a different meaning to how the commandment to Adam and Eve should be understand 
when applied to infertile men and women?

We were not able to have children. We had 1 adopted without papers. His parents divorced and neither one wanted him so we took him. He was 16. Tony passed away  quite some time ago. Other than that we take care of all the feral cats God sends our way. We have 4 permanent feral cats and up to 9 at breakfast time. I have seen adult cats lead their kittens to our place and drop them off for dinner time. 

Edited March 29 by rodheadlee

[Kenngo1969]

While, of course, I cannot possibly identify with being married, wanting children, and not getting them, there is something to be said, indeed, Rod @rodheadlee, for caring for all of God's creatures.

Bless you and your wife, Sir.  

[blackstrap]

I think that humans have been multiplying just fine. The problem is they have been replenishing the plastic WAY too much !!!

[The Nehor]

So couples that are incapable of having children are okay? So then………..
“WAIT NO! NOT LIKE THAT!”

The odd thing is that all these promises that the Lord will work it out amount to non-scriptural folklore. They seem reasonable but are they accurate? A kind of “God is loving therefore God will………” It is comforting but is it accurate?

[Benjamin McGuire]

16 hours ago, telnetd said:

Did God's commandment to "be fruitful and multiply" solely refer to procreation for Adam and Eve or did it also include their caretaking of the plants and trees in the Garden of Eden?

It did only refer to this.

We shouldn't remove it from its context - man wasn't created first in Genesis 1. First we get all of the other life, and they are given this same commandment. Their ability to procreate isn't dependent on man's assistance. Man is differentiated from the rest of creation in other ways in the text. The idea of man as a caretaker in the garden doesn't come until the second creation account in Genesis 2.

16 hours ago, telnetd said:

Is it proper to assign a different meaning to how the commandment to Adam and Eve should be understand when applied to infertile men and women?

I don't have any problems with this - as long as we don't try to assert that this is what it meant all along. If we interpret it this way as a way of likening the scriptures unto ourselves (and it seems that this is exactly what is going on here), then this is fine, in my opinion.

I think that it is a better approach than Judaism after Gershom's ban, which occasionally practiced forced divorce and remarriage when women were infertile. The history of placing the blame for this solely on women is itself a historical problem of gender-based interpretation. For us to find alternate ways to try and fulfill the commandment without having to resort to claims that this is God's fault and that we are justified in suffering through it. See for example 1 Samuel 1:6 -

Quote

And her adversary also provoked her sore, for to make her fret, because the Lord had shut up her womb.

And we certainly don't want to suggest that for women who are infertile, that perhaps it is a lack of faith that keeps them from having children. So I think that there is other benefits that come with reinterpreting the text to match our understanding.

[Tacenda]

10 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

We were not able to have children. We had 1 adopted without papers. His parents divorced and neither one wanted him so we took him. He was 16. Tony passed away  quite some time ago. Other than that we take care of all the feral cats God sends our way. We have 4 permanent feral cats and up to 9 at breakfast time. I have seen adult cats lead their kittens to our place and drop them off for dinner time. 

This is my son exactly...a feral cat came to his yard pregnant and had her babies and my son didn't know what to do so he took care of all of them. And now he has permanent cats and a cat house on his porch. I keep telling him to take them to the vet to be spayed. I guess they are a little too wild for getting them in a kennel. But he wasn't able to ignore them and took on the responsibility. I'm sorry about your loss with Tony.  

[SkyRock]

We were told we were both infertile and could not have kids naturally.  We hadn't married "young".  That was a rough 7 years at times.  We then adopted.  That was great.   We love our adopted kids. 

Then we had 2 naturally when we were "older".  The fertility docs (we went to 3 or 4) never told us that fertility changes over time.   It is very high for women up to 25 or so, then declines until late 30s, after which it ramps up for some women.  

 

[rodheadlee]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

This is my son exactly...a feral cat came to his yard pregnant and had her babies and my son didn't know what to do so he took care of all of them. And now he has permanent cats and a cat house on his porch. I keep telling him to take them to the vet to be spayed. I guess they are a little too wild for getting them in a kennel. But he wasn't able to ignore them and took on the responsibility. I'm sorry about your loss with Tony.  

😄 our feral cats will let us pet them but if we pick them up to give them away or take them to the vet they scratch you and run like the devil.

[manol]

1 hour ago, rodheadlee said:

😄 our feral cats will let us pet them but if we pick them up to give them away or take them to the vet they scratch you and run like the devil.

We "have" a feral female, she's been spayed and three of her sons from her last litter are "our" cats.  They come inside but she never does, so we feed her on a table in the carport.  She will hop up on the table and stand up on her hind legs and give you a long, long hug, but don't betray her trust by trying to pick her up or she'll give you something to remember her by! 

There was a time in my life when I was very much alone, and God/the universe/whatever sent me love disguised as a cat. 

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, manol said:

We "have" a feral female, she's been spayed and three of her sons from her last litter are "our" cats.  They come inside but she never does, so we feed her on a table in the carport.  She will hop up on the table and stand up on her hind legs and give you a long, long hug, but don't betray her trust by trying to pick her up or she'll give you something to remember her by! 

There was a time in my life when I was very much alone, and God/the universe/whatever sent me love disguised as a cat. 

Hence your avatar?

[manol]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Hence your avatar?

"Manol" is the original Mongolian name for the Pallas Cat.

Here is a link to the reason for my avatar.  Notice the "What the ___??" moment about six seconds in when she first sees the camera.  This is what the beginning of a paradigm shift looks like:

Pallas Cat discovers camera - YouTube

So, that's like me when I first found out that women in the Church used to give blessings. 

 

 

Edited March 29 by manol

[Tacenda]

32 minutes ago, manol said:

"Manol" is the original Mongolian name for the Pallas Cat.

Here is a link to the reason for my avatar.  Notice the "What the ___??" moment about six seconds in when she first sees the camera.  This is what the beginning of a paradigm shift looks like:

Pallas Cat discovers camera - YouTube

So, that's like me when I first found out that women in the Church used to give blessings. 

 

 

I felt this when I first learned of JS's polygamy and other unknowns at 48 yrs. of age and 40 years as a member, now 62. Loved the video!!

tacenda pl (plural only)

1. things that are not to be spoken about or made public
2. things that are best left unsaid

Edited March 29 by Tacenda

[ZealouslyStriving]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I felt this when I first learned of JS's polygamy and other unknowns at 48 yrs. of age and 40 years as a member, now 62. Loved the video!!

tacenda pl (plural only)

1. things that are not to be spoken about or made public
2. things that are best left unsaid

I have to be honest: how did you go 40 years without hearing about polygamy? I knew all that as a teenager raised by a single-woman convert who taught me nothing at home.

I don't ask this to boast. I truly want to know how that's possible?

[Tacenda]

56 minutes ago, ZealouslyStriving said:

I have to be honest: how did you go 40 years without hearing about polygamy? I knew all that as a teenager raised by a single-woman convert who taught me nothing at home.

I don't ask this to boast. I truly want to know how that's possible?

I've no clue! My family wasn't big on church history books and the like. I never heard it being taught in regular church, didn't graduate seminary, didn't study church history. You might be either a lot older than me, or a lot younger. I am maybe in the sweet spot. I remember bringing it up to my visiting teachers and my neighbor, and they weren't aware of it and my neighbor said that's anti Mormon stuff, that's why I became silent or tacenda. I only knew of Brigham Young's polygamy, so had no problem. Maybe I wouldn't have had a problem with JS's had I not found out the specifics, along with BY's, there was way more to both stories. But sorry to derail this topic. 

Edited March 29 by Tacenda

[ZealouslyStriving]

1 minute ago, Tacenda said:

I've no clue! My family wasn't big on church history books and the like. I never heard it being taught in regular church, didn't graduate seminary, didn't study church history. You might be either a lot older than me, or a lot younger. I am maybe in the sweet spot. I remember bringing up to my visiting teachers and my neighbor, and they weren't aware of it and my neighbor said that's anti Mormon stuff. 

Maybe my Ward was just super-awesome 🤔 growing up!

I guess it goes to show that the Church is different everywhere.

I'll be 49 in a few months.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I felt this when I first learned of JS's polygamy and other unknowns at 48 yrs. of age and 40 years as a member, now 62. Loved the video!!

tacenda pl (plural only)

1. things that are not to be spoken about or made public
2. things that are best left unsaid

I so love your name.

[Pyreaux]

7 hours ago, manol said:

"Manol" is the original Mongolian name for the Pallas Cat.

Here is a link to the reason for my avatar.  Notice the "What the ___??" moment about six seconds in when she first sees the camera.  This is what the beginning of a paradigm shift looks like:

Pallas Cat discovers camera - YouTube

So, that's like me when I first found out that women in the Church used to give blessings. 

Snap. I know the one ox story, are there more?

[manol]

2 hours ago, Pyreaux said:

Snap. I know the one ox story, are there more?

Do you have a copy of "Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith"?  I will be going by memory here because I no longer have a copy:

Turn to page 223, where you will find the beginning of a discourse that Joseph Smith delivered to the Female Relief Society, as it was then called.  IGNORE the section headings which were inserted by Joseph Fielding Smith.  Within the next two or three pages you will find Joseph referring to some of the elders complaining because the sisters were going around healing people(!).  Joseph told them that it was perfectly fine, and in defense of the practice of women giving blessings he quoted from the 16th chapter of Mark, verses 17 and 18:

"And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

A bit better version is found in History of the Church, volume 4, pages 602-607 (again going by memory).  This version contains Joseph Smith's journal entry on that date in which he writes something to the effect that he told the sisters how they would come into possession of the blessings of the priesthood(!).  The same text of his discourse as found in "Teachings" then follows, and it is actually Eliza R. Snow's notes from the meeting. 

Apparently at the end of the meeting Joseph gave the sisters specific instructions on the format they were to follow.  The details are not in the record, though when Eliza became the second Relief Society president apparently she wrote down and circulated these instructions, or her version of them.  I am under the impression that instead of citing Melchezidek Priesthood authority, the sisters claimed authority "as disciples of Jesus Christ", or words to that effect, along the lines of Joseph's citation of those verses from the Gospel of Mark.

I don't know when the practice of women blessing the sick began, but in the Nauvoo era, in Far West, and in the early Utah Valley era Latter-day Saint women were apparently blessing and healing people fairly regularly.  In the course of investigating this topic I bought books that contained excerpts from women's journals from back then, which included many such accounts.  My recollection is that in either Nauvoo or Far West the sisters held meetings on Wednesday nights specifically for blessing people.  After the meetings they'd visit and bless those who needed it but were unable to attend. 

One name that kept coming up again and again in these diaries was Zina Diantha Huntington Jacobs Smith Young, though they didn't use her full name.  She was the polyandrous wife of Henry Jacobs and Joseph Smith, and after Joseph was killed she married Brigham Young while remaining married to Henry Jacobs.  Anyway her name kept coming up in these journal entries about people being blessed and miraculously healed.  Zina became the third Relief Society president. 

In my opinion the history of women giving blessings gets downplayed today in Church articles that mention the practice.  I think it was probably a big deal at the time.  One of the missionary tools of the LDS Church in those days was the claim that they enjoyed the same gifts of the Spirit as the primitive Church (7th Article of Faith), including healing, and I don't think any other religions were making that rather fantastic claim until Mary Baker Eddy founded Christian Science in 1879. 

If you want to know why the practice was discontinued, I can tell you what conclusion my investigation led me to, which is a bit different from the official explanation. 

 

Edited March 30 by manol