Abstain from all appearance of evil.

[bearhoof]

I'm interested in stories about counsel you received (or gave to others) about avoiding the appearance of evil. For example, as a child my spouse was told by her mother not to drink from a mug lest someone think she was drinking coffee. In a recent EQ discussion one man stated that he only drank water when attending work-related social gatherings, another man one-upped him by claiming that he doesn't drink anything at all when attending these gatherings. What were you counseled to do to "avoid the appearance of evil?"

[mfbukowski]

The difference will be found between Utahns and those who live in "the mission field", ie: the entire world outside of Utah.

Out here in the real world no one cares what you are drinking.

The whole idea sounds absurd to me.

What business do others have in judging others by what they drink etc.?

The bible says Jesus taught NOT to judge others.  Those doing so are actually contradicting their own faith.

Edited March 12, 2024 by mfbukowski

[ksfisher]

20 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

The difference will be found between Utahns and those who live in "the mission field", ie: the entire world outside of Utah.

You really like to bash Utah, don't you.

[The Nehor]

The entire scriptural basis for ‘avoiding the appearance of evil’ is flawed. Paul was more likely to be telling the saints in Thessalonica to avoid every kind of evil.

http://www.crivoice.org/appearance.html

Abstaining from anything that anyone could construe as evil makes the saints subject to the most nosy and intrusive members and what conclusions they might draw from anything you do. It is a back door justification for acting like biblical Pharisees to avoid anyone thinking you might be up to anything evil. It also gives backbiters and gossips an out if they are caught slandering people on flimsy evidence as they can argue that what the person did gave ‘the appearance of evil’.

[CV75]

59 minutes ago, bearhoof said:

I'm interested in stories about counsel you received (or gave to others) about avoiding the appearance of evil. For example, as a child my spouse was told by her mother not to drink from a mug lest someone think she was drinking coffee. In a recent EQ discussion one man stated that he only drank water when attending work-related social gatherings, another man one-upped him by claiming that he doesn't drink anything at all when attending these gatherings. What were you counseled to do to "avoid the appearance of evil?"

Very early in my tenure as a Church member (college student convert), it was explained to me that "appearance" did not mean "outward semblance" but rather the "personal presence" in our demeanor or actions. In other words, don't give in to temptation. I find the Book of Mormon to phrase it as "shake at the appearance of sin" -- shake of temptation.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, bearhoof said:

I'm interested in stories about counsel you received (or gave to others) about avoiding the appearance of evil. For example, as a child my spouse was told by her mother not to drink from a mug lest someone think she was drinking coffee. In a recent EQ discussion one man stated that he only drank water when attending work-related social gatherings, another man one-upped him by claiming that he doesn't drink anything at all when attending these gatherings. What were you counseled to do to "avoid the appearance of evil?"

Luckily no one ever bothered about appearance of evil with me.  Given it’s a mistranslation (some translations carry on the tradition, but most don’t), I wish we would completely dump it from teaching as it contradicts other teachings, such as woe unto them who call good things evil and evil good (Isaiah 5:20)

https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/1 Thessalonians 5:22

Quote

KJ21

Abstain from all appearance of evil.

ASV

abstain from every form of evil.

AMP

Abstain from every form of evil [withdraw and keep away from it].

AMPC

Abstain from evil [shrink from it and keep aloof from it] in whatever form or whatever kind it may be.

BRG

Abstain from all appearance of evil.

CSB

Stay away from every kind of evil.

CEB

Avoid every kind of evil.

CJB

but keep away from every form of evil.

CEV

and don't have anything to do with evil.

DARBY

hold aloof from every form of wickedness.

DLNT

be abstaining from every form of evil.

DRA

From all appearance of evil refrain yourselves.

ERV

and stay away from everything that is evil.

EASY

But keep away from any kind of bad thing.

EHV

Keep away from every kind of evil.

ESV

Abstain from every form of evil.

ESVUK

Abstain from every form of evil.

EXB

and stay away from ·everything that is [every form/kind of] evil.

GNV

Abstain from all appearance of evil.

GW

Keep away from every kind of evil.

GNT

and avoid every kind of evil.

HCSB

Stay away from every kind of evil.

ICB

And stay away from everything that is evil.

ISV

Keep away from every kind of evil.

PHILLIPS

Never damp the fire of the Spirit, and never despise what is spoken in the name of the Lord. By all means use your judgement, and hold on to whatever is really good, Steer clear of evil in any form.

JUB

Separate yourselves from all appearance of evil.

KJV

Abstain from all appearance of evil.

AKJV

Abstain from all appearance of evil.

LSB

abstain from every form of evil.

LEB

Abstain from every form of evil.

TLB

Keep away from every kind of evil.

MSG

Don’t suppress the Spirit, and don’t stifle those who have a word from the Master. On the other hand, don’t be gullible. Check out everything, and keep only what’s good. Throw out anything tainted with evil.

MEV

Abstain from all appearances of evil.

MOUNCE

abstain from evil of every kind.

NOG

Keep away from every kind of evil.

NABRE

Refrain from every kind of evil.

NASB

abstain from every form of evil.

NASB1995

abstain from every form of evil.

NCB

Avoid every form of evil.

NCV

and stay away from everything that is evil.

NET

Stay away from every form of evil.

NIRV

Say no to every kind of evil.

NIV

reject every kind of evil.

NIVUK

reject every kind of evil.

NKJV

Abstain from every form of evil.

NLV

Keep away from everything that even looks like sin.

NLT

Stay away from every kind of evil.

NMB

Keep from every appearance of evil.

NRSVA

abstain from every form of evil.

NRSVACE

abstain from every form of evil.

NRSVCE

abstain from every form of evil.

NRSVUE

abstain from every form of evil.

NTFE

if something looks evil, keep well away.

OJB

Abstain from every appearance of ra’ah (evil).

RGT

Abstain from any appearance of evil.

RSV

abstain from every form of evil.

RSVCE

abstain from every form of evil.

TLV

keep away from every kind of evil.

VOICE

Put away every form of evil.

WEB

Abstain from every form of evil.

WE

My brothers, ask God to help us.

WYC

Abstain you from all evil species. [Abstain ye you from all evil species, or likeness.]

YLT

from all appearance of evil abstain ye;

 

Edited March 12, 2024 by Calm

[bluebell]

I remember hearing about not drinking from a glass if you are at a bar or something so that it doesn't look like you are drinking alcohol but to instead have pop right from the can.  I'm pretty sure I heard this sometime in my youth but I don't remember if it was taught to me or if I heard it from an adult in a talk in sacrament meeting or something like that.

I didn't put much thought into the concept as far as drinking in bars goes, but I do remember being conscious of it as a teenager in situations with members of the opposite sex where it could be possible for someone to misconstrue what was going on.  Like hanging out all night at a guy friend's house alone with him, kind of stuff.  

I never considered it to be a sin to not avoid the appearance of evil, it just seemed pragmatic to me.  Like an easy way to protect your reputation kind of thing.

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

The difference will be found between Utahns and those who live in "the mission field", ie: the entire world outside of Utah.

Out here in the real world no one cares what you are drinking.

The whole idea sounds absurd to me.

What business do others have in judging others by what they drink etc.?

The bible says Jesus taught NOT to judge others.  Those doing so are actually contradicting their own faith.

I was taught this growing up and I grew up in the 'mission field'.

[mfbukowski]

38 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I was taught this growing up and I grew up in the 'mission field'.

I must admit I see more of a reason there, but still...

I have actually seen people drink water from a mug!

Shocking, I know...  😜

[MiserereNobis]

9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I must admit I see more of a reason there, but still...

I have actually seen people drink water from a mug!

Shocking, I know...  😜

Long ago when I was a waiter in college, a couple of women asked me to serve them wine in mugs. It was lunch time and they didn’t want people seeing them day drink. 

Does this count? 😁

Edited March 12, 2024 by MiserereNobis

[mfbukowski]

44 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I remember hearing about not drinking from a glass if you are at a bar or something so that it doesn't look like you are drinking alcohol but to instead have pop right from the can.  I'm pretty sure I heard this sometime in my youth but I don't remember if it was taught to me or if I heard it from an adult in a talk in sacrament meeting or something like that.

I didn't put much thought into the concept as far as drinking in bars goes, but I do remember being conscious of it as a teenager in situations with members of the opposite sex where it could be possible for someone to misconstrue what was going on.  Like hanging out all night at a guy friend's house alone with him, kind of stuff.  

I never considered it to be a sin to not avoid the appearance of evil, it just seemed pragmatic to me.  Like an easy way to protect your reputation kind of thing.

Reminds me of "Wake up little Susie....." from the Everly Bros.!

I grew up in a culture where 100% of adults smoked and drank, and even the priest drank wine as part of "the sacrament meeting" (Mass)

So yet again as usual, it's all culture clash I guess.

[smac97]

2 hours ago, bearhoof said:

I'm interested in stories about counsel you received (or gave to others) about avoiding the appearance of evil. For example, as a child my spouse was told by her mother not to drink from a mug lest someone think she was drinking coffee. In a recent EQ discussion one man stated that he only drank water when attending work-related social gatherings, another man one-upped him by claiming that he doesn't drink anything at all when attending these gatherings. What were you counseled to do to "avoid the appearance of evil?"

When I was in the Army I generally avoided keggers and going to bars.  The few times I did go I would have a soda.  I suppose there was some element of "avoid{ing} the appearance of evil" in this, but mostly I wanted to stay away from drinking environments because I did not enjoy the attendant behaviors.

When I was serving as a bishop, I received a call from an extended family member asking if I could take in her sister for a few days (she was fleeing an abusive relationship).  I said yes and called my stake president to give him a heads-up.  He was fine with it, but cautioned me to be sure my wife was in the home.  He said he was not concerned about the risk of actual impropriety (he trusted me), but was concerned about the risk of the appearance of impropriety.  I followed this counsel, and it went off without a hitch.  We "avoid{ed} the appearance of evil."

The "chaperone" function of the executive secretary when a bishop is meeting privately with wardmembers is always an exercise in "avoid{ing} the appearance of evil."

Pres. Faust had this to day in 1995:

Quote

The best counsel I ever received about staying away from the edge came when, as a young married man, President Harold B. Lee called me to be a member of a bishopric. He said, “From now on, you must not only avoid evil, but also the appearance of evil.” He did not interpret that counsel. That was left to my conscience.
...
Staying away from the edge is an individual responsibility. Occasionally our well-meaning young people want every detail of appropriate and inappropriate conduct to be specified, perhaps so they can feel comfortable in getting closer to the edge. They sometimes seem more concerned with what the gospel prohibits than what it gives. For instance, some young adults were surprised when they learned that it was inappropriate for mixed young single adult groups to be involved together in overnight activities. They said, “Why hasn’t the prophet told us?” The Church counsel in this matter has been clear for many years. It should not have been necessary to tell these young people to avoid the appearance of evil. My strong advice is, if there is any question about your personal conduct, don’t do it. It is the responsibility of prophets to teach the word of God—not to spell out every jot and tittle of human behavior. Our moral agency requires us to know good from evil and choose the good. If we are trying to avoid not only evil, but the very appearance of evil, we will act for ourselves and not be acted upon.
...

Many of you worry about your future. I think every conscientious young man does. But you do not realize what opportunities lie ahead of you. After a lifetime of dealing with human affairs, I am persuaded that your future will be beyond your dreams if you observe the following:

1. Do not live on the edge.

2. Avoid not only evil, but even the appearance of evil.

3. Follow the counsel of Lehi to act for yourselves and not be acted upon.

4. Seek first the kingdom of God and receive the great promise that all else will be added upon you.

5. Follow the counsel of Church leaders.

And this in 2003:

Quote

Some of you young men may be letting others set your standards. You defend yourselves by saying, “Who said we shouldn’t do this or we shouldn’t do that?” There are so many shades of right and wrong that each of you has to decide where the line will be. I strongly urge you that if there is any question in your minds or hearts about whether your personal conduct is right or wrong, don’t do it. Each of us has moral agency, and the gift of the Holy Ghost will sharpen our impressions of what is right and wrong, true and false. It is the responsibility of the prophets of God to teach the word of God, not to spell out every jot and tittle of human conduct. If we are conscientiously trying to avoid not only evil but the very appearance of evil, we will act for ourselves and not be acted upon.

I think the counsel pertains less to putting on airs, and more to staying well away from "the edges" of appropriate conduct.

Thanks,

-Smac

[MiserereNobis]

2 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

and even the priest drank wine as part of "the sacrament meeting" (Mass)

At 7:30 in the morning for daily mass no less! Every morning every day! What a lush! 😁

Edited March 12, 2024 by MiserereNobis

[mfbukowski]

1 minute ago, MiserereNobis said:

Long ago when I was a waiter in college, a couple of women asked me to serve them wine in mugs. It was lunch time and they didn’t want people seeing them day drink. 

Does this count? 😁

Yeah, it does.... that could probably be about actually losing one's job.

It just seems different to me. 🤔

[mfbukowski]

5 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

At 7:30 in the morning for daily mass no less! Every morning every day! What a lush! 😁

I remember serving mass, age 9 or 10, and bringing the cruets up to the altar to be consecrated and man, they were small and mixed 50/50 with water in the chalice?  Not enough booze there to even get you a little buzzed!

In that context it would be drastically wrong to NOT drink wine!!  

For LDS- NOT drinking wine there would be blasphemy !

So which you judge- drinking it or not?

Just stirring the pot.... 

 

[blackstrap]

My companion and I attended a Consolate Christmas  party and when it came to drinks we chose juice. During the evening a photographer took a picture of us with the VIPs there. It was in a major newspaper the next day with our " Elder X and Elder Y " names holding our glasses like everyone else. I could feel the Mission President's side eye.  

[The Nehor]

49 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

At 7:30 in the morning for daily mass no less! Every morning every day! What a lush! 😁

Reminds me of a line from a video I once watched that went something like this:

‘Don’t worry about me. I don’t have a problem. I ain’t no lush. Now if you will excuse me I have a date with a bottle of Listerine that I do not want to miss.’

[The Nehor]

54 minutes ago, smac97 said:

When I was in the Army I generally avoided keggers and going to bars.  The few times I did go I would have a soda.  I suppose there was some element of "avoid{ing} the appearance of evil" in this, but mostly I wanted to stay away from drinking environments because I did not enjoy the attendant behaviors.

When I was serving as a bishop, I received a call from an extended family member asking if I could take in her sister for a few days (she was fleeing an abusive relationship).  I said yes and called my stake president to give him a heads-up.  He was fine with it, but cautioned me to be sure my wife was in the home.  He said he was not concerned about the risk of actual impropriety (he trusted me), but was concerned about the risk of the appearance of impropriety.  I followed this counsel, and it went off without a hitch.  We "avoid{ed} the appearance of evil."

The "chaperone" function of the executive secretary when a bishop is meeting privately with wardmembers is always an exercise in "avoid{ing} the appearance of evil."

Pres. Faust had this to day in 1995:

And this in 2003:

I think the counsel pertains less to putting on airs, and more to staying well away from "the edges" of appropriate conduct.

Thanks,

-Smac

I always question extrapolations from bad understandings of scripture. While the warning to avoid the edge makes sense conflating it with ‘avoiding the appearance of evil’ is more problematic both scripturally and from a straight gospel sense. Jesus ate with prostitutes and traitors. Avoiding the appearance of evil doesn’t seem to have been a high priority.

[Vanguard]

I remember being told that President Kimball(?) avoided drinking root beer as it has the word 'beer' in it. I remember trying to be impressed by this though ultimately it never took. ; )

[MustardSeed]

Well I guess I’m going to hell for sure then.  
i drink my white chocolate Pero from a mug.  Looks like coffee, smells like coffee, probably taste like coffee, not coffee.
 

The idea that one should never drink from a mug or that one has to never drink or should just order milk in case anybody sees you is just absurd to me. 

 

There are some times that creating clean imagery is valuable. Like, for example, celebrities. Like it or not, they carry a responsibility because everybody’s watching them. It’s smart to be prudent in public displays. To some degree it’s smart for us too but to put a blanket statement on anything such as “don’t drink from a mug“ sounds absolutely preposterous IMO. 

Edited March 12, 2024 by MustardSeed

[bluebell]

51 minutes ago, Vanguard said:

I remember being told that President Kimball(?) avoided drinking root beer as it has the word 'beer' in it. I remember trying to be impressed by this though ultimately it never took. ; )

I wonder if it was true.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Vanguard said:

I remember being told that President Kimball(?) avoided drinking root beer as it has the word 'beer' in it. I remember trying to be impressed by this though ultimately it never took. ; )

There was an Elder Perry talk where he went to cocktail hours to network and he tried drinking lemon lime soda but it looked like alcohol so he ordered root beer which had a similar problem. Then he ordered a glass of milk and all was good and his drink choice became a conversation starter and he made more contacts.

I could see that story morphing into being about the dangers of root beer.

[MustardSeed]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

There was an Elder Perry talk where he went to cocktail hours to network and he tried drinking lemon lime soda but it looked like alcohol so he ordered root beer which had a similar problem. Then he ordered a glass of milk and all was good and his drink choice became a conversation starter and he made more contacts.

I could see that story morphing into being about the dangers of root beer.

My friend used to brag about her “I only drink milk in public” policy.  I found her to be pompous. 

[Vanguard]

37 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

My friend used to brag about her “I only drink milk in public” policy.  I found her to be pompous. 

That reminds me how I will often jokingly say to a drinking friend - "We should get together some time to talk more. Treat me to a tall glass of milk and you have me at hello". ;o

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, Vanguard said:

I remember being told that President Kimball(?) avoided drinking root beer as it has the word 'beer' in it. I remember trying to be impressed by this though ultimately it never took. ; )

During the intermission of a theatrical presentation, his host offered to get refreshments: “His hearing wasn’t very good, and I got right down in front of him and I said, ‘President McKay, what would you like to drink?  All of our cups say Coca Cola on them because of our arrangement with Coca Cola Bottling, but we have root beer and we have orange and we have Seven-Up.  What would you like to drink?’  And he said, ‘I don’t care what it says on the cup, as long as there is Coke in the cup.”⁸⁷ 
<snip>
At a reception McKay attended, the hostess served rum cake.  “All the guests hesitated, watching to see what McKay would do.  He smacked his lips and began to eat.”  When one guest expostulated, “‘But President McKay, don’t you know that is rum cake?’  McKay smiled and reminded the guest that the Word of Wisdom forbade drinking alcohol, not eating it.”⁸⁶

 

https://mormonheretic.org/2010/09/28/coke-rum-cake-and-president-mckay/