Mississippi Bishop Resigns from the Pulpit

[pogi]

wasmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/mississippi_ward_bishop_resigns_from_the_pulpit.mp4

This video seems to be making its rounds.  I haven't researched it much but was wondering if anyone here has information about the guy.  I heard that he was an MMA fighter, interestingly.  He mentioned that he is resigning because of things he is being "required to do" that he "can't morally stand by".   Anyone know what he is talking about?   I am also curious to know if he is just resigning his position as a bishop or if he is leaving the church all together. 

It sounds like he has received a lot of support from the exmo reddit community, and he made a follow up thank you video for them the next day.  

Mormon Bishop Resigns at Pulpit in Mississippi Sacrament Meeting - wasmormon.org

A bit from the follow up video gives a little more info: 

Quote

 

We have to remember, that these people are just simply us who haven’t yet learned the truth. I don’t know what the answer is. Part of me thinks if we stop talking about it and just love them. Maybe. Maybe that’s the answer. Maybe we quit dogging Joseph and Brigham. Those people have heard it. They know. They’ve just been brainwashed. They can call it whatever they want but that’s what it is.

But, our family is doing okay. We have been struggling so much. We’ve taken advantage of friends in the church to help us cope with the realization of what we’ve come to know. So,this affects so many people. And people are so tender. And I don’t want to hurt people. Both, on either side, of Mormon and non-Mormon.

But just so you know, yesterday was extremely heavy. For me,yes, but more for my wife and my kids. We’re in Mississippi. There’s no exmo group in Mississippi. My kids are homeschooled, so their friends, I pray that their friends will remain true to them regardless of what they believe. But, I just wont subject my children to the programming anymore. No more FSY trips. No more camps. No, that’s where they abused me. We’re not going to do that. Things are changing.

The world is changing. Don’t believe the wars and the rumors you hear in the news. Yes, they’re real. But that’s all fog to put fear in the hearts and minds of the people. Look upward. Seek the higher self. That is where Christ is. He doesn’t come from the clouds. He comes from within.

 

Any thoughts on any of this?

 

Edited January 16 by pogi

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

wasmormon.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/01/mississippi_ward_bishop_resigns_from_the_pulpit.mp4

This video seems to be making its rounds.  I haven't researched it much but was wondering if anyone here has information about the guy.  I heard that he was an MMA fighter, interestingly.  He mentioned that he is resigning because of things he is being "required to do" that he "can't morally stand by".   Anyone know what he is talking about?   I am also curious to know if he is just resigning his position as a bishop or if he is leaving the church all together. 

It sounds like he has received a lot of support from the exmo reddit community, and he made a follow up thank you video for them the next day.  

Mormon Bishop Resigns at Pulpit in Mississippi Sacrament Meeting - wasmormon.org

In this follow up video he talks about how he won't subject his kids "to the programming anymore".  He suggests that people stop dogging Joseph and Brigham and just love members because we are all just people with different experiences. 

Any thoughts on any of this?

 

The only thing I was able to find out about it was the accusation that the video was put up by his brother without his permission, and then taken down quickly.

I didn’t have very kind feeling towards him when I thought that he had filmed his exit, so finding out he never intended for it to be public softened my heart a lot.  It was also going around Reddit that the reason he resigned from his calling was because he felt he was being asked to dig into the past sins of some members of his congregation and he didn’t feel that that was the right thing to do. I don’t know if that rumor is true or not.

I don’t really know anything else about him or the video, but I thought it was odd. It would be traumatic for a congregation to lose a bishop that way regardless, but it seemed like he made it a little more traumatic on them in the way that he did it. Because he stood up and said a lot, but he didn’t really say anything at the same time. So still lots of questions and innuendos circling his exit.

I wasn’t even sure after listening to it if he was going to continue to be a member or if he was actually leaving the church too.  He seems like a very sincere person, I just don’t really understand the way he went about what he did.

[pogi]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

The only thing I was able to find out about it was the accusation that the video was put up by his brother without his permission, and then taken down quickly.

I didn’t have very kind feeling towards him when I thought that he had filmed his exit, so finding out he never intended for it to be public softened my heart a lot.

That is good to hear. 

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

 It was also going around Reddit that the reason he resigned from his calling was because he felt he was being asked to dig into the past sins of some members of his congregation and he didn’t feel that that was the right thing to do. I don’t know if that rumor is true or not.

Ya, he talks about the youth a lot in the two videos he posted.  It sounds like he himself was abused at a youth camp or something.  I was wondering if this is related to the whole Sam Young thing, where he doesn't think it is moral to interview young kids about sexual things. 

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I wasn’t even sure after listening to it if he was going to continue to be a member or if he was actually leaving the church too.  He seems like a very sincere person, I just don’t really understand the way he went about what he did.

I can't tell either.  If I had to guess, it seems like maybe he is stepping away because he doesn't want to subject his children to the programming anymore.  I don't know what else that could mean, but maybe he is finding ways to be more nuanced.  It is good to hear that he not only received support from the exmo community but that members from his ward have been there to support him and help him cope.  

[bluebell]

28 minutes ago, pogi said:

That is good to hear. 

Ya, he talks about the youth a lot in the two videos he posted.  It sounds like he himself was abused at a youth camp or something.  I was wondering if this is related to the whole Sam Young thing, where he doesn't think it is moral to interview young kids about sexual things. 

I can't tell either.  If I had to guess, it seems like maybe he is stepping away because he doesn't want to subject his children to the programming anymore.  I don't know what else that could mean, but maybe he is finding ways to be more nuanced.  It is good to hear that he not only received support from the exmo community but that members from his ward have been there to support him and help him cope.  

I think the ex Mormon community supports everyone who they think is leaving the church, don’t they?  Or do you mean it’s good to hear he’s getting support from them even if he’s staying active?

It does seem that he was well loved in his ward. I would hope that they would continue to support and love him.  

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I am also curious to know if he is just resigning his position as a bishop or if he is leaving the church all together. 

Sounds like he's leaving the church completely. In the first video he hints at it by saying he would still be willing to help with tornado cleanup but not "wear the silly shirt" - thus implying that he doesn't want to be identified as "Mormon" any longer.

But in the second video it's pretty clear that he is identifying with the exmo community.

"We have to remember, that these people are just simply us who haven’t yet learned the truth. [...] Maybe we quit dogging Joseph and Brigham. Those people have heard it. They know. They’ve just been brainwashed. They can call it whatever they want but that’s what it is."

He goes on to lament that there's no exmo community where he's at in Mississippi, and how he hopes his kids - who are homeschooled - are able to remain friends with their peers (presumably because they are in a group with other LDS families).

 

Quote

It sounds like he himself was abused at a youth camp or something.  I was wondering if this is related to the whole Sam Young thing, where he doesn't think it is moral to interview young kids about sexual things. 

I didn't interpret his remarks as hinting that he was ever physically or sexually abused personally, but that he considers the "brainwashing" / "programming" that goes on in the youth program to be a form of abuse.

I don't really agree with that characterization, but hey - it's a free country - he can think (and say) whatever he likes.

I wish him well in his future endeavors.

 

[bluebell]

10 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Sounds like he's leaving the church completely. In the first video he hints at it by saying he would still be willing to help with tornado cleanup but not "wear the silly shirt" - thus implying that he doesn't want to be identified as "Mormon" any longer.

But in the second video it's pretty clear that he is identifying with the exmo community.

"We have to remember, that these people are just simply us who haven’t yet learned the truth. [...] Maybe we quit dogging Joseph and Brigham. Those people have heard it. They know. They’ve just been brainwashed. They can call it whatever they want but that’s what it is."

He goes on to lament that there's no exmo community where he's at in Mississippi, and how he hopes his kids - who are homeschooled - are able to remain friends with their peers (presumably because they are in a group with other LDS families).

 

I didn't interpret his remarks as hinting that he was ever physically or sexually abused personally, but that he considers the "brainwashing" / "programming" that goes on in the youth program to be a form of abuse.

I don't really agree with that characterization, but hey - it's a free country - he can think (and say) whatever he likes.

I wish him well in his future endeavors.

 

Ah, so another member who has become an anti-member (someone whose beliefs are now the opposite of what they were, but who's just on a different side of the same coin).  Sounds like it was very very good that he stepped down as bishop.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I think the ex Mormon community supports everyone who they think is leaving the church, don’t they?  Or do you mean it’s good to hear he’s getting support from them even if he’s staying active?

It does seem that he was well loved in his ward. I would hope that they would continue to support and love him.  

Yes, support from the exmo community is a given, I was more commenting that it was good that he was receiving support from some in his ward as well, despite that many might feel betrayed by him.   He mentioned that he is anxious that his kids might lose friends over this.  Those social tribalistic alliances can be pretty sensitive things to deal with.   He will learn who his real friends are through this. 

[webbles]

This reminds me of something a branch I heard on my mission.  The branch started with a very small core set of people (about 4-5 families).  They all knew each other and worked with each other.  They were the backbone of the branch and from them, it had grown into a district with about 3 branches.  One day, one of these core persons got up in Fast and Testimony meeting and stated that she now knew that the church was false, that Joseph Smith was a false prophet, etc.  This happened about 1-2 years before I was there but it was still talked about.  It sent shockwaves through the branch and district.  I heard about some pretty ugly things that occurred on both sides.  Her family moved out of town (possibly because of the acrimony).

I hope that the former bishop and his family as well as the ward can make it through this without too much hardship.

[pogi]

32 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Sounds like he's leaving the church completely. In the first video he hints at it by saying he would still be willing to help with tornado cleanup but not "wear the silly shirt" - thus implying that he doesn't want to be identified as "Mormon" any longer.

But in the second video it's pretty clear that he is identifying with the exmo community.

"We have to remember, that these people are just simply us who haven’t yet learned the truth. [...] Maybe we quit dogging Joseph and Brigham. Those people have heard it. They know. They’ve just been brainwashed. They can call it whatever they want but that’s what it is."

I picked up on all those cues too, and I think you are probably right.  But you never know, there are many more nuanced members who retain membership while still identifying with the experiences of some exmos.  

32 minutes ago, Amulek said:

He goes on to lament that there's no exmo community where he's at in Mississippi, and how he hopes his kids - who are homeschooled - are able to remain friends with their peers (presumably because they are in a group with other LDS families).

With his kid, I think his concern is that they don't have any other avenues of social networking through public school, so their only friends are those in the LDS community and ward.   My wife and I have this same anxiety of how our kids might lose friends over what we are going through.  Wish stuff like that didn't happen, but it does.  Parents just wanting to protect their kids from other influences.   

32 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I didn't interpret his remarks as hinting that he was ever physically or sexually abused personally, but that he considers the "brainwashing" / "programming" that goes on in the youth program to be a form of abuse.

Perhaps, but it seems more direct than that to me -

Quote

No more FSY trips. No more camps. No, that’s where they abused me. We’re not going to do that. Things are changing.

Those overnighters are a likely place for abuse to occur, and I don't really see any "programming" or "brainwashing" happening more there than in any other church activity or setting.

 

[bluebell]

1 minute ago, pogi said:

Yes, support from the exmo community is a given, I was more commenting that it was good that he was receiving support from some in his ward as well, despite that many might feel betrayed by him.   He mentioned that he is anxious that his kids might lose friends over this.  Those social tribalistic alliances can be pretty sensitive things to deal with.   He will learn who his real friends are through this. 

If he's publicly calling his latter-day saint friends 'brainwashed', the support might start to lessen and members might not want their children in an environment where they could be subject to that kind of talk. I wouldn't feel betrayed by a personal friend leaving the church, but I would if that friend started telling everyone I was brainwashed.

I would think he would feel the same if his LDS friends were publicly saying similarly derogatory things about him and his children.  Ex-members don't appreciate being labeled in derogatory ways either.  Pulling away from associations of that nature would probably not be accurately described as caused by tribalistic alliances.

Hopefully both sides can be fair and respectful.  He will learn who his real friends are but others will also learn if he was ever a real friend, by the labels they use to describe each other.

 

[pogi]

1 minute ago, bluebell said:

If he's publicly calling his latter-day saint friends 'brainwashed', the support might start to lessen and members might not want their children in an environment where they could be subject to that kind of talk. I wouldn't feel betrayed by a personal friend leaving the church, but I would if that friend started telling everyone I was brainwashed.

I would think he would feel the same if his LDS friends were publicly saying similarly derogatory things about him and his children.  Ex-members don't appreciate being labeled in derogatory ways either.  Pulling away from associations of that nature would probably not be accurately described as caused by tribalistic alliances.

Hopefully both sides can be fair and respectful.  He will learn who his real friends are but others will also learn if he was ever a real friend, by the labels they use to describe each other.

 

I agree.  But there also may be tribalism that he will need to deal with as well.  It is an almost predictable outcome.

This guy really should be more careful posting this stuff online.  I don't think he would ever say this to his friends in the church directly, he seems emphatic about his desire to protect their sensitivities and just love them, but comments like that uploaded online will come back to haunt you.   

 

[smac97]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

The only thing I was able to find out about it was the accusation that the video was put up by his brother without his permission, and then taken down quickly.

I didn’t have very kind feeling towards him when I thought that he had filmed his exit, so finding out he never intended for it to be public softened my heart a lot.  

And yet he still "resigned" publicly.  In front of the entire ward, including the youth.  I wonder if that has created confusion, hurt feelings, anger, etc. by the kids and/or their parents.

He made a public spectacle of what should have been handled privately.

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I don’t really know anything else about him or the video, but I thought it was odd. It would be traumatic for a congregation to lose a bishop that way regardless, but it seemed like he made it a little more traumatic on them in the way that he did it. Because he stood up and said a lot, but he didn’t really say anything at the same time. So still lots of questions and innuendos circling his exit.

Sadly, yes.

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I wasn’t even sure after listening to it if he was going to continue to be a member or if he was actually leaving the church too.  

Seems like he is, and his wife and all their kids.

He posted a video of himself talking to "ExMo Reddit" (see here and here and here, which are clips from "WARD Radio").  A quote: "We have to remember that these people are just simply us, who haven't yet learned the truth.  I don't know what the answer is.  Part of me thinks if we stop talking about it, and just love them, maybe that's the answer. ... Maybe we quit dogging Joseph and Brigham.  Those people have heard it.  They know.  ... They've just been brainwashed.  ... They can call it whatever they want, but that's what it is."  It seems like since he is addressing "ExMo Reddit," the comments about "we" ("we have to remember..." and "maybe we quit dogging...") are referencing former Latter-day Saints ("ExMos"), and the comments about "these people" who "haven't yet learned the truth" are a reference to the members of the Church.

WARD Radio also has another clip of him (here and here) that includes him panning over to his wife and children, with them discussing how they will be spending their Sunday rather than going to Church (dine out, play video games, bowling, play Mario Kart, "having a freaking blast").

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

He seems like a very sincere person, I just don’t really understand the way he went about what he did.

There are segments of society who seem to want to publicize/advertise private/personal matters that previously were kept private.  For some who leave the Church, they want to do so with a bang.  I had one friend who did this by posting a long explanatory FB post.  She later said that she did so with the hope of persuading her extended family and relatives (she comes from a large family) to follow her out of the Church.  My understanding is that she later regretted doing this and deleted the post.  I think part of the regret arose because she had succeeded in influencing some of her younger relatives, and she felt that this amounted to her interfering with how the parents of these youth were trying to guide their children.

I think this fellow from Mississippi may end up having similar regrets, for similar reasons.

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

32 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yes, support from the exmo community is a given, I was more commenting that it was good that he was receiving support from some in his ward as well, despite that many might feel betrayed by him.   He mentioned that he is anxious that his kids might lose friends over this.  Those social tribalistic alliances can be pretty sensitive things to deal with.   He will learn who his real friends are through this. 

I think him publicly labeling Latter-day Saints as "brainwashed" (and hinting that Latter-day Saints are dishonest when they characterize their perspective in some other way) may well create some measure of alienation.  If I had young children being homeschooled, I can't say I would trust this fellow and his wife, when interacting with my children outside of my presence, to treat my family's religious beliefs with respect.

Thanks,

-Smac

[pogi]

25 minutes ago, smac97 said:

And yet he still "resigned" publicly.  In front of the entire ward, including the youth.  I wonder if that has created confusion, hurt feelings, anger, etc. by the kids and/or their parents.

He made a public spectacle of what should have been handled privately.

Sadly, yes.

Seems like he is, and his wife and all their kids.

He posted a video of himself talking to "ExMo Reddit" (see here and here and here, which are clips from "WARD Radio").  A quote: "We have to remember that these people are just simply us, who haven't yet learned the truth.  I don't know what the answer is.  Part of me thinks if we stop talking about it, and just love them, maybe that's the answer. ... Maybe we quit dogging Joseph and Brigham.  Those people have heard it.  They know.  ... They've just been brainwashed.  ... They can call it whatever they want, but that's what it is."  It seems like since he is addressing "ExMo Reddit," the comments about "we" ("we have to remember..." and "maybe we quit dogging...") are referencing former Latter-day Saints ("ExMos"), and the comments about "these people" who "haven't yet learned the truth" are a reference to the members of the Church.

WARD Radio also has another clip of him (here and here) that includes him panning over to his wife and children, with them discussing how they will be spending their Sunday rather than going to Church (dine out, play video games, bowling, play Mario Kart, "having a freaking blast").

There are segments of society who seem to want to publicize/advertise private/personal matters that previously were kept private.  For some who leave the Church, they want to do so with a bang.  I had one friend who did this by posting a long explanatory FB post.  She later said that she did so with the hope of persuading her extended family and relatives (she comes from a large family) to follow her out of the Church.  My understanding is that she later regretted doing this and deleted the post.  I think part of the regret arose because she had succeeded in influencing some of her younger relatives, and she felt that this amounted to her interfering with how the parents of these youth were trying to guide their children.

I think this fellow from Mississippi may end up having similar regrets, for similar reasons.

Thanks,

-Smac

I think one needs to be careful about assuming motives of wanting to go out with a "bang" and creating a "public spectacle" of this.  It has been noted that it was not his idea to record this and put it online, so if that is your motive, why limit the spectacle and bang to just the ward?  That's small time. 

Another possible explanation is that he loves his ward and felt he owed them an explanation.  I think he intended to keep it private to only include those who would be directly affected - the bishop addressing the congregation that he presides over.  Perhaps he also wanted to get in front of the predictable gossip and address the issue once and for all so there is no speculation and misunderstandings.  That seems to be his intent by stating "I am not leaving because of...sins"

IF a bishop just resigned and stopped going to church without any explanation, there is much greater risk for social drama and disaster.  It is not healthy to just tuck stuff like this under the rug.   I think what he did was perfectly appropriate.  He deserved to explain himself to the congregation he presides over, and they deserved an explanation. 

Edited January 16 by pogi

[pogi]

22 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think him publicly labeling Latter-day Saints as "brainwashed" (and hinting that Latter-day Saints are dishonest when they characterize their perspective in some other way) may well create some measure of alienation.  If I had young children being homeschooled, I can't say I would trust this fellow and his wife, when interacting with my children outside of my presence, to treat my family's religious beliefs with respect.

Thanks,

-Smac

You do with your kids what you will, but I think this guy has given more than enough reason to trust that he won't disrespect any kids' religious beliefs.  If you trust your kids enough to be competent to enter eternal covenants, then perhaps you should trust them enough to handle a little outside influence and maintain their covenants, and perhaps be an influence for good.  I personally don't think it is healthy to keep kids isolated in a Mormon bubble. 

He clearly showed that he is safe by encouraged the exmo community to not bag on Joseph and Brigham but to simply love the members.   He explicitly mentions his desire to protect members.   I think he was really not smart to think that this video might not make it back to some of his ward members (didn't think that one through very well!), but this video was not directed at them or intended for them.  

Edited January 16 by pogi

[Calm]

32 minutes ago, smac97 said:

e made a public spectacle of what should have been handled privately.

Do you see a problem if he had just told everyone from the pulpit that he loved them and was resigning because of feeling too much stress?  I can see not wanting to rely on the ward grapevine to ensure that everyone hears his farewells like he wants them to be heard.

I very much sympathize with the need to be understood and not wanting people to get the wrong idea or to worry it was something they did, especially if trying to help them.

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, pogi said:

He clearly showed that he is safe

Calling members (of any kind) brainwashed does not convey safeness and respect to me.

Edited January 16 by Calm

[smac97]

3 hours ago, pogi said:

You do with your kids what you will, but I think this guy has given more than enough reason to trust that he won't disrespect any kids' religious beliefs. 

I think he has given more than enough reason to not trust him to, in private venues, treat Latter-day Saints and their faith with respect.  I say this because of what he has said publicly about those people and their beliefs.  And he did so deliberately.  Specifically. 

If he's willing to publicly denigrate the Latter-day Saints as "brainwashed" (and impliedly dishonest if they disagree with that characterization of them and their faith), it seems reasonable to be concerned about what he would say about the Saints and their beliefs privately, behind closed doors.

3 hours ago, pogi said:

If you trust your kids enough to be competent to enter eternal covenants, then perhaps you should trust them enough to handle a little outside influence and maintain their covenants, and perhaps be an influence for good.

My children are growing up in the marketplace of ideas.  Sure.  But that does not mean I am obligated to go out of my way and send them to persons who publicly denigrate our religious beliefs.  They'll encounter plenty of that stuff on their own.

3 hours ago, pogi said:

I personally don't think it is healthy to keep kids isolated in a Mormon bubble. 

I agree.  And I don't think this "bubble" is really possible these days.  I think the Church has realized this, which is likely why it has recently published resources for those in "faith crisis."

3 hours ago, pogi said:

He clearly showed that he is safe by encouraged the exmo community to not bag on Joseph and Brigham but to simply love the members.  He explicitly mentions his desire to protect members.

I'm not sure what you are saying here.  He can mouth platitudes about "simply lov{ing}" the Latter-day Saints, but when he turns around and publicly denigrates us, I think it is unreasonable gloss over that.

3 hours ago, pogi said:

I think he was really not smart to think that this video might not make it back to some of his ward members (didn't think that one through very well!), but this video was not directed at them or intended for them.  

I have a hard time thinking of him as being that oblivious and dim-witted.  Publicly branding Latter-day Saints as ignorant ("haven’t yet learned the truth...") and brainwashed ("They’ve just been brainwashed") and impliedly suggesting we are dishonest if we don't go along with that characterization ("They can call it whatever they want but that’s what it is"), does not engender trust that he will privately treat us and our beliefs with respect.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited January 16 by smac97

[smac97]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Quote

He made a public spectacle of what should have been handled privately.

Do you see a problem if he had just told everyone from the pulpit that he loved them and was resigning because of feeling too much stress?  

Yes.  In speaking at the pulpit as a bishop, he is speaking as an agent and representative of the Church, not in his personal/individual capacity.  If he wanted to be released, someone from the Stake Presidency would and should have done it.  Instead, he took the "public spectacle" route and misappropriated the pulpit of the Church, during a sacred convocation of the Church, to do and say things that the Church would not want him to do.

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I can see not wanting to rely on the ward grapevine to ensure that everyone hears his farewells like he wants them to be heard.

Sure.  And yet I think he misappropriated the pulpit during the Church's Sacrament Meeting, and spoke wildly out of turn.  

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I very much sympathize with the need to be understood and not wanting people to get the wrong idea or to worry it was something they did, especially if trying to help them.

He could have sent a letter in his private capacity.  I am not challenging his right to Free Speech, but rather disagreeing with his misappropriation of the Church's meeting.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited January 16 by smac97

[smac97]

45 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think one needs to be careful about assuming motives of wanting to go out with a "bang" and creating a "public spectacle" of this.

I did not "assume" (as in "suppose to be the case, without proof") anything about his motives.  I read his published-to-the-world comments and commented on the potential and/or likely effect of his comments on others.

45 minutes ago, pogi said:

It has been noted that it was not his idea to record this and put it online,

CFR, please.  

And in any event, he has published separate videos which nobody is suggesting were put up without his consent or against his will.  And it is those videos that are the primary focus of my critique, since it is there that he publicly denigrated the Latter-day Saints.

45 minutes ago, pogi said:

so if that is your motive, why limit the spectacle and bang to just the ward?  That's small time. 

I think the point is that he isn't "limit{ing} the spectacle" to his ward (and even then he was behaving inappropriately).  Again, he has published separate videos.

Mormon Stories has picked up on this, promising "Full Story Coming Soon."  I suspect this means he'll be chatting with John Dehlin in the near future (or has done so already).

45 minutes ago, pogi said:

Another possible explanation is that he loves his ward and felt he owed them an explanation.

He misappropriated the pulpit during the Church's Sacrament Meeting.  I suspect he did this without seeking/obtaining consent from the stake president, and if so he used subterfuge and false pretenses to do what he did.  

45 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think he intended to keep it private to only include those who would be directly affected - the bishop addressing the congregation that he presides over.

I don't.  Again, he almost immediately posted other videos to publicize his stunt.

45 minutes ago, pogi said:

IF a bishop just resigned and stopped going to church without any explanation, there is much greater risk for social drama and disaster.  It is not healthy to just tuck stuff like this under the rug.   I think what he did was perfectly appropriate.  He deserved to explain himself to the congregation he presides over, and they deserved an explanation. 

I think what he did was profoundly inappropriate.  It was a betrayal of trust.  It was a stunt, a misappropriation of a sacred religious meeting, apparently borne of subterfuge and dishonesty.

I also can't fit into the "perfectly appropriate" category his later public denigrations of Latter-day Saints as ignorant ("haven’t yet learned the truth...") and brainwashed ("They’ve just been brainwashed") and impliedly suggesting we are dishonest if we don't go along with that characterization ("They can call it whatever they want but that’s what it is").  

Thanks,

-Smac

[pogi]

35 minutes ago, Calm said:

Calling members (of any kind) brainwashed does not convey safeness and respect to me.

Keep the context in mind - he is speaking to exmos.    He was not speaking to members, and I think he has made it explicitly clear in the same video that he wants to protect members and is even encouraging exmos to not bash their beliefs, but simply to love them.  

I don't think there is any reason to believe based on the information that we have that a child in his home would be at risk having their beliefs disrespected.  The fact that he is telling exmos to not bash on members beliefs... that says a lot, I think.  

Edited January 16 by pogi

[pogi]

11 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I did not "assume" (as in "suppose to be the case, without proof") anything about his motives.  I read his published-to-the-world comments and commented on the potential and/or likely effect of his comments on others.

CFR, please.  

And in any event, he has published separate videos which nobody is suggesting were put up without his consent or against his will.  And it is those videos that are the primary focus of my critique, since it is there that he publicly denigrated the Latter-day Saints.

I think the point is that he isn't "limit{ing} the spectacle" to his ward (and even then he was behaving inappropriately).  Again, he has published separate videos.

Mormon Stories has picked up on this, promising "Full Story Coming Soon."  I suspect this means he'll be chatting with John Dehlin in the near future (or has done so already).

He misappropriated the pulpit during the Church's Sacrament Meeting.  I suspect he did this without seeking/obtaining consent from the stake president, and if so he used subterfuge and false pretenses to do what he did.  

I don't.  Again, he almost immediately posted other videos to publicize his stunt.

I think what he did was profoundly inappropriate.  It was a betrayal of trust.  It was a stunt, a misappropriation of a sacred religious meeting, apparently borne of subterfuge and dishonesty.

I also can't fit into the "perfectly appropriate" category his later public denigrations of Latter-day Saints as ignorant ("haven’t yet learned the truth...") and brainwashed ("They’ve just been brainwashed") and impliedly suggesting we are dishonest if we don't go along with that characterization ("They can call it whatever they want but that’s what it is").  

Thanks,

-Smac

His comments were directly addressed to the exmo community.  I don't know if he realizes how public his videos have or would become.  It is normal to speak our minds a little more freely depending on the company we are addressing.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that he directly encouraged non members to not bash the beliefs of members.   He clearly has every intention of protecting the sensitivities of members.  I think he might have been a bit ignorant thinking that his video would remain within the confines of the exmo community though. 

[Tacenda]

52 minutes ago, Calm said:

Do you see a problem if he had just told everyone from the pulpit that he loved them and was resigning because of feeling too much stress?  I can see not wanting to rely on the ward grapevine to ensure that everyone hears his farewells like he wants them to be heard.

I very much sympathize with the need to be understood and not wanting people to get the wrong idea or to worry it was something they did, especially if trying to help them.

💯 Yes on this. Rumors can go from bad to worse. 

[smac97]

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

Quote

Calling members (of any kind) brainwashed does not convey safeness and respect to me.

Keep the context in mind - he is speaking to exmos.

He is "speaking" about the Latter-day Saints and their beliefs via videos he is posting to literally anyone with access to the Internet, practically the entire world.

If he had said this stuff privately, I think you might have had more of a point.  

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

He was not speaking to members,

Yes, he was.  That's what happens when you post materials available to the general public.  Your audience is . . . the general public, including members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Do you really think that a man of his age and experience, acting in 2024, would freely and publicly post free-to-access videos denigrating the Latter-day Saints with the expectation that only "exmos" would see them?  If so, do you think that expectation is reasonable?

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

and I think he has made it explicitly clear in the same video that he wants to protect members and is even encouraging exmos to not bash their beliefs, but simply to love them.

Strange, then, that he is publishing videos to the world in which he denigrates the Latter-day Saints as ignorant ("haven’t yet learned the truth...") and brainwashed ("They’ve just been brainwashed") and impliedly suggesting we are dishonest if we don't go along with that characterization ("They can call it whatever they want but that’s what it is").

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

I don't think there is any reason to believe based on the information that we have that a child in his home would be at risk having their beliefs disrespected. 

I think there is ample reason to be concerned about what he says about the Latter-day Saints and their religious beliefs.  

I say this because he is posting videos which elicit such reason.

7 minutes ago, pogi said:

The fact that he is telling exmos to not bash on members beliefs... that says a lot, I think.  

What does that say, in your view? 

Might it say he is wantonly hypocritical in "telling exmos to not bash on members beliefs" while elsewhere publicly doing precisely that?  

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

His comments were directly addressed to the exmo community. 

His comments were nevertheless published to the world.  

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

I don't know if he realizes how public his videos have or would become.

I have a hard time theorizing that a man of his age and experience, acting while living in the United States in 2024, and obviously conversant in terms of technology and social media and whatnot, would think that only "exmos" would encounter his published-to-the-world commentary about the Latter-day Saints and their beliefs.

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

It is normal to speak our minds a little more freely depending on the company we are addressing.

Sure.  But he published the speaking-our-minds commentary to the entire world.  

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

You seem to be ignoring the fact that he directly encouraged non members to not bash the beliefs of members.

I am not ignoring it.  Rather, I am not giving it much probative weight given his seemingly wanton hypocrisy in "bash{ing} the beliefs of members" while elsewhere telling other people not to do that.

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

He clearly has every intention of protecting the sensitivities of members.

I think he has no such intention.  He publicly denigrated the Latter-day Saints as ignorant ("haven’t yet learned the truth...") and brainwashed ("They’ve just been brainwashed") and impliedly suggesting we are dishonest if we don't go along with that characterization ("They can call it whatever they want but that’s what it is").

And if he ends up going on John Dehlin's podcast, who knows what further disparagements may come out.

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think he might have been a bit ignorant thinking that his video would remain within the confines of the exmo community though. 

Again, I have a hard time thinking of him as being that oblivious and dim-witted.

Thanks,

-Smac