Jump to content
Seriously No Politics ×

Temple sealer questions


Recommended Posts

A few questions here please:

- who ultimately calls a sealer? Prophet, temple president, apostle etc? Is the sealer’s name a product of revelation, inspiration ..  ? You know called by Jesus himself or just pulled from a bucket of names?

- if a sealer working in the temple has committed an excommunicable  offense or multiple which have not been addressed by the church, what is the status of the sealings he is performing? Are they valid? What about a witness to one of these dealings who is aware of and has not reported the offense(s) and just lets him continue on with performing sealings?  Is this ordinance invalid or not? For either answer- why? 
 

- I’m asking because this is my marriage situation and I learned about the status of the sealer about five years ago now. I have brought this up with the stake presidency and made a complaint about it which allegedly went all the way to salt lake. This has been kicked around for about two years now with them. They refuse to talk to me or even address the issue. Essentially  I have been told to take a hike. I have provided the names of witnesses, one of which is in a significant church calling. Salt lake has not reached out to him and  he is willing to talk . 
 

this is part of what fuels my anger that a few have pointed out on this board. It isn’t the only thing, but by far it is the biggest burr under my saddle.

 I have exactly zero confidence this will be addressed so I have given up on pursuing it as the church probably wants since it is the easy way out for them. I’m just trying to piece this whole thing together to see if I can gather even a speck of confidence in the church, priesthood, so called discernment etc.  

I was about to “bear my testimony” of the temple and share the story with my ward but thought better of it. My wife is just slightly less amused about this than I am. Stake Pres just puts on a happy face and says not to dwell on it. I asked how he would feel if it was his sealing and he couldn’t provide an answer. The situation which I will not describe is very disgusting. The only reason they even pushed it up to salt lake is because of who one of my witnesses is…. Who has not reported it either btw. My reporting this and following up repeatedly has placed me and my wife on the trouble makers list now because I dared criticize a church official or whatever sealer is. 
 

any informative  responses are appreciated. 
 

### thanks everyone for the input! 

Edited by Diamondhands69
Done with this thread. Found out most of what I wanted to learn
Link to comment
2 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

A few questions here please:

- who ultimately calls a sealer? Prophet, temple president, apostle etc? Is the sealer’s name a product of revelation, inspiration ..  ? You know called by Jesus himself or just pulled from a bucket of names?

- if a sealer working in the temple has committed an excommunicable  offense or multiple which have not been addressed by the church, what is the status of the sealings he is performing? Are they valid? What about a witness to one of these dealings who is aware of and has not reported the offense(s) and just lets him continue on with performing sealings?  Is this ordinance invalid or not? For either answer- why? 
 

- I’m asking because this is my marriage situation and I learned about the status of the sealer about five years ago now. I have brought this up with the stake presidency and made a complaint about it which allegedly went all the way to salt lake. This has been kicked around for about two years now with them. They refuse to talk to me or even address the issue. Essentially  I have been told to take a hike. I have provided the names of witnesses, one of which is in a significant church calling. Salt lake has not reached out to him and  he is willing to talk . 
 

this is part of what fuels my anger that a few have pointed out on this board. It isn’t the only thing, but by far it is the biggest burr under my saddle.

 I have exactly zero confidence this will be addressed so I have given up on pursuing it as the church probably wants since it is the easy way out for them. I’m just trying to piece this whole thing together to see if I can gather even a speck of confidence in the church, priesthood, so called discernment etc.  

I was about to “bear my testimony” of the temple and share the story with my ward but thought better of it. My wife is just slightly less amused about this than I am. Stake Pres just puts on a happy face and says not to dwell on it. I asked how he would feel if it was his sealing and he couldn’t provide an answer. The situation which I will not describe is very disgusting. The only reason they even pushed it up to salt lake is because of who one of my witnesses is…. Who has not reported it either btw. My reporting this and following up repeatedly has placed me and my wife on the trouble makers list now because I dared criticize a church official or whatever sealer is. 
 

any informative  responses are appreciated. 

I would say you have done your due diligence by reporting it. And now you would do well to back away from the issue. Nothing that another has done will negatively affect you. This will only serve to further canker you against the church. Do not read motivations into the actions/inactions of the leaders in question. You do not ultimately know what goes on behind their eyeballs. And again, it only serves to keep the 'burr in your saddle'. I would imagine if I were to know of the peccadillos of all of my leaders over the past almost 60 yrs I would, if I were dead, roll over in my grave. ; ) Move on. Chock it up to human foibles. 

Link to comment
2 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

A few questions here please:

- who ultimately calls a sealer? Prophet, temple president, apostle etc? Is the sealer’s name a product of revelation, inspiration ..  ? You know called by Jesus himself or just pulled from a bucket of names?

- if a sealer working in the temple has committed an excommunicable  offense or multiple which have not been addressed by the church, what is the status of the sealings he is performing? Are they valid? What about a witness to one of these dealings who is aware of and has not reported the offense(s) and just lets him continue on with performing sealings?  Is this ordinance invalid or not? For either answer- why? 
 

- I’m asking because this is my marriage situation and I learned about the status of the sealer about five years ago now. I have brought this up with the stake presidency and made a complaint about it which allegedly went all the way to salt lake. This has been kicked around for about two years now with them. They refuse to talk to me or even address the issue. Essentially  I have been told to take a hike. I have provided the names of witnesses, one of which is in a significant church calling. Salt lake has not reached out to him and  he is willing to talk . 
 

this is part of what fuels my anger that a few have pointed out on this board. It isn’t the only thing, but by far it is the biggest burr under my saddle.

 I have exactly zero confidence this will be addressed so I have given up on pursuing it as the church probably wants since it is the easy way out for them. I’m just trying to piece this whole thing together to see if I can gather even a speck of confidence in the church, priesthood, so called discernment etc.  

I was about to “bear my testimony” of the temple and share the story with my ward but thought better of it. My wife is just slightly less amused about this than I am. Stake Pres just puts on a happy face and says not to dwell on it. I asked how he would feel if it was his sealing and he couldn’t provide an answer. The situation which I will not describe is very disgusting. The only reason they even pushed it up to salt lake is because of who one of my witnesses is…. Who has not reported it either btw. My reporting this and following up repeatedly has placed me and my wife on the trouble makers list now because I dared criticize a church official or whatever sealer is. 
 

any informative  responses are appreciated. 

Your ordinance is valid because God is no respecter of persons and allows His authority to be exercised on behalf of the faithful no matter how hypocritical the legal administrator may be. That is an expression of mercy and grace; justice will come to the hypocrite on God's terms.

I don't understand the particulars enough to know why "Salt Lake" might treat this sealer differently than others who have been excommunicated.

I do understand how charity and forgiveness are liberating, and that trust in the perpetrator is not a requirement for going forward in happiness. Trust in the system is much more complicated and depends on how you personally put things together in your mind, but a close relationship with God through the companionship of the Holy Ghost is key to keeping your end of the bargain for navigating membership in the kingdom of God on earth.

Link to comment
2 hours ago, Diamondhands69 said:

A few questions here please:

- who ultimately calls a sealer? Prophet, temple president, apostle etc? Is the sealer’s name a product of revelation, inspiration ..  ? You know called by Jesus himself or just pulled from a bucket of names?

- if a sealer working in the temple has committed an excommunicable  offense or multiple which have not been addressed by the church, what is the status of the sealings he is performing? Are they valid? What about a witness to one of these dealings who is aware of and has not reported the offense(s) and just lets him continue on with performing sealings?  Is this ordinance invalid or not? For either answer- why? 
 

- I’m asking because this is my marriage situation and I learned about the status of the sealer about five years ago now. I have brought this up with the stake presidency and made a complaint about it which allegedly went all the way to salt lake. This has been kicked around for about two years now with them. They refuse to talk to me or even address the issue. Essentially  I have been told to take a hike. I have provided the names of witnesses, one of which is in a significant church calling. Salt lake has not reached out to him and  he is willing to talk . 
 

this is part of what fuels my anger that a few have pointed out on this board. It isn’t the only thing, but by far it is the biggest burr under my saddle.

 I have exactly zero confidence this will be addressed so I have given up on pursuing it as the church probably wants since it is the easy way out for them. I’m just trying to piece this whole thing together to see if I can gather even a speck of confidence in the church, priesthood, so called discernment etc.  

I was about to “bear my testimony” of the temple and share the story with my ward but thought better of it. My wife is just slightly less amused about this than I am. Stake Pres just puts on a happy face and says not to dwell on it. I asked how he would feel if it was his sealing and he couldn’t provide an answer. The situation which I will not describe is very disgusting. The only reason they even pushed it up to salt lake is because of who one of my witnesses is…. Who has not reported it either btw. My reporting this and following up repeatedly has placed me and my wife on the trouble makers list now because I dared criticize a church official or whatever sealer is. 
 

any informative  responses are appreciated. 

No one wants to "create doctrine" that doesn't exist.

NO ONE KNOWS THE ANSWER, BUT TRUST IN GOD.

He's the boss who will not be bound by the words of men, and those to whom you are speaking know that.

What if they tell you incorrectly what happens in EVERY case?

They are not our Heavenly Father to judge correctly and they know that

They do not know the contents of your heart, nor those of your wife.

They only know what they know as humans with a guidebook!

Leave it up to the Boss. Yes uncertainty is hard, but these kind of decisions are beyond the "pay grade" of human priesthood holders.

I have asked leaders these kind of questions and they always say, with total ambiguity, "I don't think I can say I know anything about that".... which is literally true in at least 2 ways: 

1, Can't say they KNOW the answer even if they did - it is for you to find the answer yourself thru revelation 

2, They actually do not know the answer.

It's a tough one!

Link to comment

If you have reported what you know, in writing*, up the chain of authority (each time documenting and sending copies of what you have previously done/confirmed, and identified witnesses, up to the office of the First Presidency, then you have done everything you can in faithful discipleship.

Do you remember the BOM story about Alma wanting to exercise priesthood authority to kill those who were burning the mothers and children and being told that stopping it would thwart justice?   Your situation may be similar.  But in any case, it is not anymore your burden to bear.  

Scriptures also teach to pray for those who despitefully use you and persecute you, and when you have a beef with someone to go to them to resolve it.

Bottom line, your salvation now depends not on staying enraged about what is or isn't happening to/about this person, but in trusting the Lord to hold His servants accountable as he sees fit. 

*The reason you do this documenting is so that the ultimate decision makers have accurate and complete information about what has occurred.  Lots of times when things are talked about truth becomes filtered in ways that undermine it as full truth.   Another reason for documenting up each step is so that if someone's failure to act or the way they act is responsible for more harm to innocents, there is a greater chance that justice will be served and that no one will be further harmed by the perp.

Link to comment
27 minutes ago, rpn said:

*The reason you do this documenting is so that the ultimate decision makers have accurate and complete information about what has occurred.  Lots of times when things are talked about truth becomes filtered in ways that undermine it as full truth.   Another reason for documenting up each step is so that if someone's failure to act or the way they act is responsible for more harm to innocents, there is a greater chance that justice will be served and that no one will be further harmed by the perp.

My part of the communication had all been written. The replies back have been 100% verbal and third hand so I have no way of knowing how far this has gone, who has seen it etc. whenever I get a talking to about it no one can provide a name of whoever it is coming from since we are so far down the chain. Definitely no written correspondence coming from salt lake. 

Link to comment
2 hours ago, webbles said:

In the section titled "“What should I do if I know that someone who is administering the sacrament is unworthy? Does this affect the validity of the sacrament?”" of the New Era October 1984 there is a paragraph near the bottom that says:

Your sealing is valid and you and your wife are still entitled to all of the blessings and benefits of the sealing, no matter what the sealer or the witnesses might have done.

 

I guess the problem is for how long do they let it continue?   
 

I think the answer is embarrassment at letting something this serious get through a likely rigorous process to become a sealer. Where is the discernment? Where is the inspiration? How in the world does Jesus let this not only happen in the first place, but to continue for years and well decades? I guess it either isn’t a big deal or all the process and authority is just made up?? Who knows?

the important thing is now that they know what will they do? Two years later the answer so far is … nothing.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Your ordinance is valid because God is no respecter of persons and allows His authority to be exercised on behalf of the faithful no matter how hypocritical the legal administrator may be. That is an expression of mercy and grace; justice will come to the hypocrite on God's terms.

I agree. The hard part to understand is why let it continue.? 

Link to comment
14 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

I agree. The hard part to understand is why let it continue.? 

I'm not sure what you mean -- (a) what continues, this person not being jailed or excommunicated? Lapses in others carrying out D&C 102? (b) who is letting it continue -- you by not escalating your efforts? The Church by not listening to you? God (there's a thread on staying His hand)?

Link to comment
2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I'm not sure what you mean -- (a) what continues, this person not being jailed or excommunicated? Lapses in others carrying out D&C 102? (b) who is letting it continue -- you by not escalating your efforts? The Church by not listening to you? God (there's a thread on staying His hand)?

The church doing nothing. They have known for two years now. Zero action 

Link to comment
10 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

I guess the problem is for how long do they let it continue?   
 

I think the answer is embarrassment at letting something this serious get through a likely rigorous process to become a sealer. Where is the discernment? Where is the inspiration? How in the world does Jesus let this not only happen in the first place, but to continue for years and well decades? I guess it either isn’t a big deal or all the process and authority is just made up?? Who knows?

the important thing is now that they know what will they do? Two years later the answer so far is … nothing.

The sealer will get punished in the end.  God and Jesus play the long game.

I had an experience on my mission where I was moved to a new area.  After a few months there, a sister who had been baptized just before I entered the area came to me and told me she had had sex with a missionary who had just returned home.  I was not in any position of authority so I was floored why she told me.  I resolved to tell the mission president but we had a president change at that time and before I spoke with him, he had a mission conference and said that anything that had happened previously should be forgotten and we will move on.  I felt that was telling me I should let it go.  But I couldn't.  It bothered me.  I know it ruined the sister because she expected him to come pick her up before he went home and he didn't.  She left the church along with her family.  Months later, after I had transferred multiple times, I had an interview with the mission president and told him what I knew.  He said he'd take care of it.  I worried about the baptisms, confirmations, other ordinances this missionary had done since he had the affair and was told that those were still valid.  At the end of my mission, the president told me he had contacted the missionary's stake president who was looking into it.  Besides that, I have no idea what happened.  It could be the missionary was excommunicated or disciplined.  It could be that he lied his way out of it.  I have no idea.  But it isn't my place to know whether he was disciplined or not.

You say that they haven't done anything but are you sure?  The stake president isn't responding to you but that doesn't mean nothing has been done.  Discipline action is a private process in the church.  Since your sealing is valid, why should you know if the sealer has been disciplined or not?  If you haven't been personally affected by the excommunicable offense, then I'm not sure why you should be informed.

Link to comment
1 hour ago, webbles said:

You say that they haven't done anything but are you sure?  The stake president isn't responding to you but that doesn't mean nothing has been done.  Discipline action is a private process in the church.  Since your sealing is valid, why should you know if the sealer has been disciplined or not?  If you haven't been personally affected by the excommunicable offense, then I'm not sure why you should be informed.

Yes I’m sure they have done nothing. Stake Pres said as much. It isn’t my stake leadership that isn’t talking or communicating, it is the upper level of this (salt lake)  They refuse to acknowledge receipt of the complaint other than yea we got it. Thats all.  This issue is local so I / my family know him and have for decades. That’s why I learned of this in the first place. 
 

not personally affected? He sealed us so yea it is slightly personal. If the attitude is to just look away we might as well just give away recommends and let anyone who wants to work in the temple do so. Bottom line is the church is ignoring it. 

Edited by Diamondhands69
Link to comment
1 hour ago, CV75 said:

Do you know who is letting this continue?

Salt lake evidently. They have stopped communicating with the stake pres as well. They have never responded to or communicated with me in any way shape or form other than reply back to the stake pres that .. “ yea we got it have a nice day “ basically. 

Edited by Diamondhands69
Link to comment
16 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Salt lake evidently. They have stopped communicating with the stake pres as well. They have never responded to or communicated with me in any way shape or form other than reply back to the stake pres that .. “ yea we got it have a nice day “ basically. 

Do you have the names of the persons in Salt Lake? Is the action you expect of them to respond to you directly?

Link to comment
22 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

Yes I’m sure they have done nothing. Stake Pres said as much. It isn’t my stake leadership that isn’t talking or communicating, it is the upper level of this (salt lake)  They refuse to acknowledge receipt of the complaint other than yea we got it. Thats all.  This issue is local so I / my family know him and have for decades. That’s why I learned of this in the first place. 
 

not personally affected? He sealed us so yea it is slightly personal. If the attitude is to just look away we might as well just give away recommends and let anyone who wants to work in the temple do so. Bottom line is the church is ignoring it. 

I'm assuming this isn't a criminal offense otherwise I'd recommend you go to the police.  But I'm not exactly sure what you are expecting.  If the man is in your stake, then the stake president has authority over his disciplinary actions.  I don't see why the general authorities need to be involved.  Is there something special about being a sealer that means he is exempt from stake disciplinary actions?  If he isn't in your stake but someone you know, then how do you know whether he has been disciplined or not?  I would expect that they would take what you sent them and forward it on to the stake leadership that is over him.  I don't see why they should say what has been done.

I get that he sealed you and so it is personal in that regard, but is his excommunicable offense personal to you?  Because if it is, you might learn of any disciplinary actions.  But if it is only in connection to you sealing, I don't see any reason why you should be notified.  Your sealing is valid whether or not he gets excommunicated or disciplined.  That's why any potential disciplinary action doesn't need to be told to you.  How can you be so sure that the church is ignoring it?

Link to comment
10 minutes ago, webbles said:

I'm assuming this isn't a criminal offense otherwise I'd recommend you go to the police. 
 

But I'm not exactly sure what you are expecting.  If the man is in your stake, then the stake president has authority over his disciplinary actions.  I don't see why the general authorities need to be involved.  Is there something special about being a sealer that means he is exempt from stake disciplinary actions?  If he isn't in your stake but someone you know, then how do you know whether he has been disciplined or not?  I would expect that they would take what you sent them and forward it on to the stake leadership that is over him.  I don't see why they should say what has been done.

How can you be so sure that the church is ignoring it?

 Not a criminal offense.

There is a reason salt lake is involved ( well this was reported to them) and my stake pres acknowledged he nor any other stake pres has any jurisdiction in this. 
 

I know they are ignoring it because of the special circumstances involved. If they were looking into it they would have to follow up with me and at least one other witness I have contact with. He has not been contacted either. If you knew the allegation you would definitely assume salt lake would be involved. There is no way they wouldn’t be. 

Edited by Diamondhands69
Link to comment
17 minutes ago, Diamondhands69 said:

There is a reason salt lake is involved ( well this was reported to them) and my stake pres acknowledged he nor any other stake pres has any jurisdiction in this.

If your stake president acknowledged that neither he or any other stake president has jurisdiction in this, then your issue is with your stake president, because "Salt Lake" should have nothing to do with this.  From the General Handbook:

Quote

32.6.3

When the Stake President Counsels with the Area Presidency about Whether a Membership Council or Other Action Is Necessary

Some matters require extra sensitivity and guidance. To know how to best help, the stake president must counsel with the Area Presidency about the situations in this section. However, only the stake president decides if a council should be held to address the conduct. If a council is held, the stake president or bishop decides the outcome.

If a membership council is held for one of the matters outlined in this section, the decision of the council must be “remains in good standing,” “formal membership restrictions,” or “withdrawal of membership.” First Presidency approval is required to remove formal restrictions or readmit the person into the Church (see 32.16.1, number 9).

As it says above, "only the stake president decides if a council should be held to address the conduct".   It's all on him, according to the Handbook.

This is true even if the person was in a different ward or stake when the serious sin was committed:

Quote

32.7.11

Sins Involving Members Who Live in Different Wards or Stakes

Sometimes members who commit a serious sin together live in different wards or stakes. In this situation, the stake presidents counsel together about the need for membership restrictions or councils. They also discuss if there is merit to the restrictions or council decisions being the same or if there are other matters that might indicate a need for different outcomes.

 

Edited by InCognitus
Link to comment
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...